Why barbs make very good tanks and how to "fix it"

[grodon9999]

We could all just play nothing but barbs, its seems to be what turbine wants.

/sarcasm off.

[Razcar]

We could all just play nothing but barbs, its seems to be what turbine wants.

/sarcasm off.

It used to be like that. They revised the enhancement system (before that you had four "slots" only to fill, so only four enhancements to pick from) and gave barbs an enhancement line that granted +1 and +2 crit range to any weapon they used when raged. This was before PrE's so there wasn't anything to compete with this.

[Kriogen]

Problem with criticals in DDO is that they are based on PnP.

It's that x2, x3, x4 and so on thats the problem. A critical hits too much. So much it can 1 shot kill something. Thats not fun, atleast if you are on the receiving side.

Critical is a 'chance' and fortification also a 'chance' you don't get hit by critical. But because DDO combat is fast, that chance feels like "100% chance you get 1 shoted by any hit if you are not immune".

We become immune vs crits, because if we don't we drop dead in less then a second. In less then a cleric/fvs/someone/you has a time to react.

You have two solutions:
1. Change crit multiplier. Not x2, x3 but +20%, +30% of base damage

2. Let fortification work as percent(%) damage reduction vs critical damage. So reduces additional, critical damage by a percent. Not 'chance', allways, but not by 100%.

[grodon9999]

Problem with criticals in DDO is that they are based on PnP.

It's that x2, x3, x4 and so on thats the problem. A critical hits too much. So much it can 1 shot kill something. Thats not fun, atleast if you are on the receiving side.

Critical is a 'chance' and fortification also a 'chance' you don't get hit by critical. But because DDO combat is fast, that chance feels like "100% chance you get 1 shoted by any hit if you are not immune".

We become immune vs crits, because if we don't we drop dead in less then a second. In less then a cleric/fvs/someone/you has a time to react.

You have two solutions:
1. Change crit multiplier. Not x2, x3 but +20%, +30% of base damage

2. Let fortification work as percent(%) damage reduction vs critical damage. So reduces additional, critical damage by a percent. Not 'chance', allways, but not by 100%.

Since nobody can be critted at higher levels turbine has compensated this by having the mobs/bosses hit for more damage all the time. If 100% fort weren't easy the damage of mobs/bosses would have to be toned down to compesate.

I was level 10-12 and did an Elite tempest spine, was walking around with 75% fort. Got un-holy smitted by a drow Blackguard and went from 220 HP to zero in 1 shot, I got a heavy-fort item the first available chance I could.

back on topic, it might be simple enough on hard/elite to leave fortification alone, lower the to-hit numbers and increase the damage done to give tanks some meaning. Perhaps add some gear enhancements so us pajama-wearing guys can't hit the ACs needed to tank a raid-boss. DT or Green Steel shields maybe?

[Lleren]

Capping was something that occured in basically all editions prior to 3rd. AC basically -10 THAC0 basically at 1 stats at 25 etc. And it can be used to create a predictable scenario I agree.

However the problem you will experience is that in all likely hood is that everyone will hit the cap. I would imagine most barberians probably would not like the idea of their str at some artificial cap, afterall why rage if it can be hit without it etc, can others hit that cap as well and if so why have a barbarian in the first place? A scaled or "shaped" (not sure if this would be right) approach may be a bit better and tends to address the difference in ac and perhaps to hit values.

In this scenario there would be a series of soft caps where at each point the next lot of ac or to hit or damage etc would infact require more points than the 1-1 ratio, similar to the ddo stat point buys.

in this example (and i will only work in ac but would be expanded to other areas)

1-1 up to 55
2-1 up to 60
3-1 up to 65
4-1 up to 70

This would narrow the range of ac while keeping within the d20 and allow for progression beyond a simple cap.

A cap, is a cap, is a cap. If there is no maximum to balance around, or if that maximum is out of reach of AC characters without ( or even with ) a specific group makeup for buffs, you have the current situation.

Hard Caps/Soft Caps are not a player happy making option. Removing much of the current buffstacking could have a similar effect on numbers. Either way AC in game is currently rather borked.

Heavy/medium armor and shields currently need some other effect to be worthwhile wearing in the current game, at high levels, for most characters.

[noinfo]

A cap, is a cap, is a cap. If there is no maximum to balance around, or if that maximum is out of reach of AC characters without ( or even with ) a specific group makeup for buffs, you have the current situation.

Hard Caps/Soft Caps are not a player happy making option. Removing much of the current buffstacking could have a similar effect on numbers. Either way AC in game is currently rather borked.

Heavy/medium armor and shields currently need some other effect to be worthwhile wearing in the current game, at high levels, for most characters.

Sorry Lleren your solution is quite flawed. It would alienate quite a lot of players who strive for being the best in a particular area and provide quite a boring end game.

My proposed scaling solution is IMO better as:
We know already what is the highest ac achievable (would work from sustained not boosted) and there is a limit to stacking based on category of buff, eg natural armour
Your concern with stacking buffs is an issue and relys on 1 or more, with the proposed solution, you would get a larger benefit from the initial buff and sliding effects from each additional buff being put into the mix due to decreasing returns.
The goal should be an ac that fits onto a d20 not a 1 size fits all.

[noinfo]

Since nobody can be critted at higher levels turbine has compensated this by having the mobs/bosses hit for more damage all the time. If 100% fort weren't easy the damage of mobs/bosses would have to be toned down to compesate.

I was level 10-12 and did an Elite tempest spine, was walking around with 75% fort. Got un-holy smitted by a drow Blackguard and went from 220 HP to zero in 1 shot, I got a heavy-fort item the first available chance I could.

back on topic, it might be simple enough on hard/elite to leave fortification alone, lower the to-hit numbers and increase the damage done to give tanks some meaning. Perhaps add some gear enhancements so us pajama-wearing guys can't hit the ACs needed to tank a raid-boss. DT or Green Steel shields maybe?

I agree with quite a bit of what you have said, problem is that you only address part of the problem
So we nerf high ac pj toons so they can't tank, will now be the uncontested primary tank in many cases.

It needs an overal reballancing and yes base damage IS key to that but base damage and to hit will not be dropped while there is no possiblity of critting.

I see it as being 3 things
1 SB tank has good hp, stable damage when hit and low dps
2. Barb tank excellent hp, excellent dps, widely varing damage
3. PJ tank, ok hp, good dps and when hit unpredicatable levels of damage (though maybe not often)

Each now has a more ballaced and style to being front and center. It makes the SB more attractive because of the stable damage they will take and that can offset the lower damage.

[Riggs]

Turbine favored rangers for a while, after favoring fighters. Then they started to favor barbs - hard, and havent stopped since.

Crit rage blew away anything else any other melee had. Even Kensai doesnt come close to barb bonuses.

Messing around with fort is bad and silly. Turbine already jacked monster damage up through the roof, along with to hit bonuses. After jacking up ac bonuses way too high and ac tanks could waltz through everything and not be touched for a while.

The answer is not MORE damage, it is balanced damage. So yes armor and shield need to give stacking dr. Take half the total armor bonus including the +1-+5, and give that as dr.

So normal fp would give 4 dr. +5 fp would give 6.5, A +2 heavy shield 2 dr, +5 would give 3.5 dr, a +5 hound tower shield with the +1 alchemical bonus would add 5 dr on top of any armor.

adding in a stacking 12 dr on top of stoneskin say would go a long way to making a s&b build more useful. Have Pre lines give more stacking bonuses. not multiple NON-stacking ones that all end up being useless since 6 dr for stalwart defender 3...on a quest where even with a 75 ac your getting hit non-stop for 60 damage makes that 6 dr really pathetic. the fact that monks get 10 dr, like in the books, is pretty weak compared to monsters that, UNlike the books, do 3x the damage, or more.

Remove grazing hits.

Remove the stupid high ac stacking bonuses in the game AND remove monster to hit by the same amount, and epic/elite by more. When a 80 ac is meaningless in a d20 game it is no longer a d20 game.

Remove all the so many stacking str bonuses too. A 70 str in a d20 system is stupid. That is godlike str and the game was never remotely balanced to be runngin around with people with a +25 str bonus to hit and damage, and be able to lift 4 MILLION pounds. Seriously. A fairly strong cahracter should be 20. A very strong one maybe 40,(see a spread of 20 in a d20 system?) 60-70 is just absurd.

Stop adding in mana pots at the store and stop adding in mana clickies every mod. AND remove the need for a cleric to require more mana than they actually have to complete a quest even when they play smart.

Why do 'level 20 monsters' have spells that do damage 200-250 damage? Thats what...50d6 even assuming a 4s or better? Why are playings getting hit, multiple times a 'round', with level 50 spells?

Barbs beat out ac build when the game spams so much damage that ONLY barbs can survive a double hit of 500 point spells or 250 dbf + meteor swarms coming back to back, or multiple hits from a monster already doing 3x as much damage as they shoudl be and hitting for 50-60 damage. YAY 10 dr for stoneskin/monk....and a high ac, vs getting hit anyway and 60 point hits = might as well bring a 800 hp barb.

Take out grazing hits, and the stupid high monster to hit, but let them auto-hit on a 19-20 for elite, and 18-20 on epic. So an ac build would still matter even on epic, but they would still take damage, just not as much as the low ac build doing more damage.

Messing with fort would be complicated and break the game.

the answer is balancing the numbers back to a d20 system, not break it further.

[noinfo]

Take out grazing hits, and the stupid high monster to hit, but let them auto-hit on a 19-20 for elite, and 18-20 on epic. So an ac build would still matter even on epic, but they would still take damage, just not as much as the low ac build doing more damage.

Messing with fort would be complicated and break the game.

the answer is balancing the numbers back to a d20 system, not break it further.

I don't disagree with some of your points. However auto hit on 19 or20? No thanks.

Bringing numbers back in line with D20 is a reasonable goal but not mutually exclusive (see my opinion on some of the scalling not necessarily the best one but an option)

Messing with fort as you call it is actually fixing a broken system. 100% immune to crit is the same as monsters critting 100% of the time it is broken. One of the many reasons undead quests are not popular is because you cant crit things.

Grazing hits was a (I believe a ) flawed attempt to address the issue and should be removed, replacing it with auto hit on a lower number breaks things far worse than I could imagine.

Many people are caught up in the idea that crits are bad because of the massive damage they take with fortification now. They forget that under a system like this:
1. Damage totals on regular hits must be lower.
2. Ac can be effectively ballanced.

[Aaxeyu]

Crit rage blew away anything else any other melee had. Even Kensai doesnt come close to barb bonuses.

Fighters > barbs. Don't get on the "barb is so OP" train.

Messing around with fort is bad and silly.

It's actually 100% crit immunity for every character that's bad and silly.
Make fort add +XX AC to the critical confirmation rolls and it would make a difference if you had 3 or 50 AC.
High AC toons would still be crit immune.

The answer is not MORE damage, it is balanced damage.

Aslong as a healer have no problem healing a barb, there is no real need for an AC tank.
Higher damage is neccessary if you want anything to change.

If a melee DPS toon can easily tank anything without any damage mitigation, there will be less incentive to use a lesser DPS AC tank instead.

Remove the stupid high ac stacking bonuses in the game AND remove monster to hit by the same amount, and epic/elite by more. When a 80 ac is meaningless in a d20 game it is no longer a d20 game.

Remove all the so many stacking str bonuses too. A 70 str in a d20 system is stupid. That is godlike str and the game was never remotely balanced to be runngin around with people with a +25 str bonus to hit and damage, and be able to lift 4 MILLION pounds. Seriously. A fairly strong cahracter should be 20. A very strong one maybe 40,(see a spread of 20 in a d20 system?) 60-70 is just absurd.

The sooner you understand that this isn't PnP the better.
Loot/character progression is not really optional for a MMO.
And it doesn't really matter if you have 120 AC or 20 AC if the devs would learn to plan the character progression better and tier the endgame.

[Lleren]

Sorry Lleren your solution is quite flawed. It would alienate quite a lot of players who strive for being the best in a particular area and provide quite a boring end game.

My proposed scaling solution is IMO better as:
We know already what is the highest ac achievable (would work from sustained not boosted) and there is a limit to stacking based on category of buff, eg natural armour
Your concern with stacking buffs is an issue and relys on 1 or more, with the proposed solution, you would get a larger benefit from the initial buff and sliding effects from each additional buff being put into the mix due to decreasing returns.
The goal should be an ac that fits onto a d20 not a 1 size fits all.

I do not think you got where I was coming from. I will try to lay it out in simple points. Likely this will be long.

- Caps of any sort are unfun for players.

- Caps are a good idea for game designers to use to help them balance endgame.

- Any Cap, hardcap or softcap ( what you are proposing is a softcap ) is still a Cap.

- As the the game currently stands, Armor and Shields must have some other effect to be worth wearing for the majority of players at endgame.

- A random range of 1d20 is not enough of a random element when Top AC's vary over a range of 20-30 points, and for AC reliant Armor and Shield wearers the high end is unachieveable.

- I have never seen a screenshot of a 100 AC armor ( heavy or medium, or even light ) and shield user, perhaps they are out there. I have seen it explained how one could could get to 110+ AC on a clothy. I'm not looking for that link though.

- I have seen a screenshot of a 100+ AC clothwearer, for example see this thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...light=westside Note please that this character is 4 levels short of current cap.

- Eliminating more buff stacking ( they have already started down this road, note Tempest AC buff change ) may help narrow the range of possible AC. I am doubtful whether this could be enough help.

- There are both in game caps, and limits to buff stacking, already in game.

- Lower caps , allows for more flexibility in building your dream character, as you have known benchmarks to hit. Having a dream character is fun.

- Less buff stacking , allowing for less reliance on the "perfect party" to get the buffs you need to have an effective score. You might have to get class X or Y, or Z... but not all three when you want to play in Epic Mode. Flexibility in group makeup is fun.

That should cover most of them.

This one though is the main point. Armor and Shields must have some effect to be worth wearing at endgame. Currently they are not an attractive enough option for many players.

[Bart_D]

The root of the problem may be that D&D 3.5, which DDO is based on, just isn't balanced at higher levels. I have played it a lot and balance just flies out the window around level 10-12. Since AC (and any other attribute) can be improved in so many stackable ways if you focus on it, different characters will have wildly varying values. And when AC (or attack bonus or whatever) vary by more than 10 or so between characters, some will almost always succeed where others will almost always fail. When the variation is 20+, some may as well not bother at all because they will always fail. So to mitigate it, either attributes such as AC must be compressed to a smaller range, or we need some other resolution mechanism than a d20.

[SquelchHU]

When i first saw fortification items i was like hey thats overpowered. And i still think so. Any pnp base for this bonus?The idea of shields and hevier armors giving fortification makes much more sense. I mean my rogue can tank naked. ***.

Yes there is though it mostly only comes on armor and shields. You even use it for exactly the same reason - since combat is a dps fest anyways and defense doesn't really work, you need it to prevent the damage spikes that would turn you from almost dead to dead.

[elyssaria]

Well to me there is another solution (which I know the devs are really afraid of).

No armor = no damage mitigation at all
Light armor = small damage mitigation
Medium armor = more mitigation
Heavy armor = large mitigation

Makes perfect sense that a heavy armor are able to take the damage much better then a light damage. Since a heavy armor build have very hard to get high ac then it should benefit of higher mitigation.

/Ely

[Aaxeyu]

Well to me there is another solution (which I know the devs are really afraid of).

No armor = no damage mitigation at all
Light armor = small damage mitigation
Medium armor = more mitigation
Heavy armor = large mitigation

Makes perfect sense that a heavy armor are able to take the damage much better then a light damage. Since a heavy armor build have very hard to get high ac then it should benefit of higher mitigation.

/Ely

Following that logic medium and light armor should offer even higher mitigation.

You should also know that AC is mitigation, if it's in range of the mobs tohit.