Why barbs make very good tanks and how to "fix it"

[sirdanile]

If you want to make armor add bonus to A_D's proposed solution to fortification I suggest having the armor add it's enhancement bonus to armor class against crits.

For example:

+5 full plate = 15 extra ac vs crits (x3 the enhancement bonus)
+5 breastplate = 10 extra ac vs crits (x2)
+5 chain shirt = 5 extra ac vs crits (x1)
Robes = 0 extra ac vs crits, or possibly half of the armor bracers bonus so +4 extra ac vs crits for 8 bracers, +3 for 6-7, etc.

Shield could do this as well, light shields = x1, large shields = x2, tower shields = x3
if you have a shield bonus from another source than a shield you could give half of it to the extra ac vs crits.

I am unsure on the warforged though, perhaps composite treated as light armor, mithril as medium and adamantine as heavy while the reinforced plating either adds +2 to the enhancement bonus before armor type is taken into account.

[Noctus]

Why not put DR on armor (like blocking DR on shields) and have it stack with shields? That way dex AC characters dodge attacks, barbs ignore damage because of their HP pool, and tanks could absorb damage due to stacking DR from heavy armor and shields.

I concure with this proposal. It would make heavy armor a viable choice again ( if the gained DR is "just right") while not needing a complete overhaul and then re-balancing of the fortification and thus damage-dealing of monsters system.

[xtchizobr]

The Problem here is some people are making "Tanks"

The idea of a "Tank" is from a compeltely different style of MMO than this one.

In DDO we use more of a "Raid Boss Holder" and not so much of a "Tank" We treat trash like just that, Trash.

In other MMO's trash mobs are held by the "Tank" because only certain Classes/Specs have decent Damage Mitigation.

armor class needs to be removed from the game then. and so does any armor heavier than robes.

for that matter, any class that isn't a bard, fvs, barbarian or rogue also needs to be removed because they bring nothing important to the group in epic mode. a party should ideally consist, therefore, of a bard/rogue multiclass, a fvs with 500 Heal scrolls, and four barbarians. for a raid, add one more fvs and the rest fill with barbarians.

class balance is important. it's very bad for one class to be obviously and overwhelmingly more desirable than others.

the idea of a "tank" did not originate in other mmos.

[Fafnir]

Solution is to have AC ALSO give DR.

[Aaxeyu]

Making heavy armor and shield better for tanking does not really adress the problem that a decent healer or two can outheal more or less any boss DPS in the game even if the guy who is tanking have no kind of mitigation at all.

[bobbryan2]

The problem here has nothing to do with barbarians, heavy armor, shields etc. The problem is AC. AC has become such a burden in this game that everyone has learned to soldier on as if AC wasn't even a statistic. When you have some character builds with ACs that approach 110, there's no way to challenge them and still challenge the 65 AC tank.

If AC had a wider range of mattering (more than 20), that would be an improvement. If Turbine just stopped catering to ACs over 80 and gave more methods of damage outside of physical, it may improve. Say, put Horoth's to hit at +60 but make him cast a lot more DBFs and meteor swarms, that may help.

But until AC is addressed, expect people to move on like it doesn't exist.

[noinfo]

The problem here has nothing to do with barbarians, heavy armor, shields etc. The problem is AC. AC has become such a burden in this game that everyone has learned to soldier on as if AC wasn't even a statistic. When you have some character builds with ACs that approach 110, there's no way to challenge them and still challenge the 65 AC tank.

If AC had a wider range of mattering (more than 20), that would be an improvement. If Turbine just stopped catering to ACs over 80 and gave more methods of damage outside of physical, it may improve. Say, put Horoth's to hit at +60 but make him cast a lot more DBFs and meteor swarms, that may help.

But until AC is addressed, expect people to move on like it doesn't exist.

First of all I agree that people often do not worry about ac. However I believe that one of the reasons ac can be ignored is 100% fortification all of the time. If you go back to my original set of ideas the idea is to bring to hit and damage of mobs back into a reasonable ballance line. I am not saying that a wider range of valid ac's would not be welcome it would be difficult to manage in a d20 system.

[noinfo]

Solution is to have AC ALSO give DR.

I once thought that might be the solution as well, but how much DR are you going to give them? Damage is still coming in at a predictable rate and lets face it barbarians have good dr anyway, even better with a WF DOD. Does not address current mobs massive too hit values or damage potentials as effectively I believe.

[Lleren]

If Shields and/or the various armor types gave stacking DR even when not blocking you would see significantly more folks using them.

It would break sections of the game and be called as easy mode, but they would be used.

As long as we use a d20 to determine skill checks there will be problems making any armor worthwhile under a certain AC, dependant on the area and difficulty. Whatever the mobs to hitbonus is in an area, any armor class under that bonus is useless as things currently exist, and you might as well be wearing robes. At least you can switch out robes quickly for a resist.

Heavy/medium armor and shields currently need some other effect to be worthwhile wearing in the current game, at high levels, for most characters. That is true for most characters at high levels in pen and paper versions as well in my experience. There most will continue wearing armor that no longer has any effectiveness at thier general level, because it makes sense to be prepared versus the lower level mobs that are out in the world as well. In an online game we do not face that threat, unless we choose to go back and grind favor.


Edit: part of the solution may be to cap the effectiveness of everything at various points. Jump skill already has been capped, and from a balance perspective capping stats has made sense for many games. To be clear I am talking about all the statistics, including things such as armor class, saves, skills, and resists. Preferably done in such a way that a character could go "over cap" to help protect against debuffing, and not in such a way that buffs fall off if you would of ended up "over cap"

[noinfo]

If Shields and/or the various armor types gave stacking DR even when not blocking you would see significantly more folks using them.

It would break sections of the game and be called as easy mode, but they would be used.

As long as we use a d20 to determine skill checks there will be problems making any armor worthwhile under a certain AC, dependant on the area and difficulty. Whatever the mobs to hitbonus is in an area, any armor class under that bonus is useless as things currently exist, and you might as well be wearing robes. At least you can switch out robes quickly for a resist.

Heavy/medium armor and shields currently need some other effect to be worthwhile wearing in the current game, at high levels, for most characters. That is true for most characters at high levels in pen and paper versions as well in my experience. There most will continue wearing armor that no longer has any effectiveness at thier general level, because it makes sense to be prepared versus the lower level mobs that are out in the world as well. In an online game we do not face that threat, unless we choose to go back and grind favor.


Edit: part of the solution may be to cap the effectiveness of everything at various points. Jump skill already has been capped, and from a balance perspective capping stats has made sense for many games. To be clear I am talking about all the statistics, including things such as armor class, saves, skills, and resists. Preferably done in such a way that a character could go "over cap" to help protect against debuffing, and not in such a way that buffs fall off if you would of ended up "over cap"

And with this we once again have DPS as being the only thing that matters as everything else will be capped.

[Lleren]

And with this we once again have DPS as being the only thing that matters as everything else will be capped.

I have no clue where you got that from what I wrote. Many of the factors that add to DPS would also capped. Mobs would need to be rebalanced if caps where introduced...

For example, if the maximum AC a mob can face from a player is X, then that is all they have to be made capable of defeating, and can be balanced to hit that AC whatever percent of times that Devs decided was balanced. Current max armor class is somewhere over 110 for a short time. Highest sustainable is in what, the 80's? Mobs currently must be balanced to deal with those numbers. If there was a maximum effective Armor Class, then that AC couold be made to matter by the Devs.

Considering what I wrote in my little "edit:" section that you commented on, I really fail to see what you mean. DPS would be lower as well... With a maximum effective armor class, builds could be designed to reach that AC, and mobs to hit that AC as often as the devs though appropriate. I doubt they would choose to have mobs hit 100% of the time.

[Razcar]

Don't Barberians just cut hair? What's all this DPS/AC stuff?

Well, in this bad economy you got to be a bit flexible.

[noinfo]

I have no clue where you got that from what I wrote. Many of the factors that add to DPS would also capped. Mobs would need to be rebalanced if caps where introduced...

For example, if the maximum AC a mob can face from a player is X, then that is all they have to be made capable of defeating, and can be balanced to hit that AC whatever percent of times that Devs decided was balanced. Current max armor class is somewhere over 110 for a short time. Highest sustainable is in what, the 80's? Mobs currently must be balanced to deal with those numbers. If there was a maximum effective Armor Class, then that AC couold be made to matter by the Devs.

Considering what I wrote in my little "edit:" section that you commented on, I really fail to see what you mean. DPS would be lower as well... With a maximum effective armor class, builds could be designed to reach that AC, and mobs to hit that AC as often as the devs though appropriate. I doubt they would choose to have mobs hit 100% of the time.

Capping was something that occured in basically all editions prior to 3rd. AC basically -10 THAC0 basically at 1 stats at 25 etc. And it can be used to create a predictable scenario I agree.

However the problem you will experience is that in all likely hood is that everyone will hit the cap. I would imagine most barberians probably would not like the idea of their str at some artificial cap, afterall why rage if it can be hit without it etc, can others hit that cap as well and if so why have a barbarian in the first place? A scaled or "shaped" (not sure if this would be right) approach may be a bit better and tends to address the difference in ac and perhaps to hit values.

In this scenario there would be a series of soft caps where at each point the next lot of ac or to hit or damage etc would infact require more points than the 1-1 ratio, similar to the ddo stat point buys.

in this example (and i will only work in ac but would be expanded to other areas)

1-1 up to 55
2-1 up to 60
3-1 up to 65
4-1 up to 70

This would narrow the range of ac while keeping within the d20 and allow for progression beyond a simple cap.

[noinfo]

Well, in this bad economy you got to be a bit flexible.

But at least you know he will be back :-p.

[Greydeath]

Tripple the damage mobs deal. That way AC tanks in one form or another would be required.

Right... that is the solution we are looking for

Trippling mob damage would only serve to further exasperate the current issue - which you failed to determine - that increasing mob damage is what Turbine CURRENTLY relies upon making HP rather than AC king

[Aaxeyu]

Right... that is the solution we are looking for

Trippling mob damage would only serve to further exasperate the current issue - which you failed to determine - that increasing mob damage is what Turbine CURRENTLY relies upon making HP rather than AC king

You are wrong, if mobs damage were drasticly increased, only having HP would not suffice.
The moment that "HP tank" can't tank, people will start using tanks that actually have some damage mitigation.


As usual It's nigh impossible to find any logic in your post...

[Spisey]

I like this solution! It will further pigeonhole wf fb barbs as the ONLY future tanks and further require reconstruct casters as hjealing class for all elite / epic rading. This will be due to every future wf barb taking the fortification feat to scale their fortification above the requirement for said quest at said difficulty!

At leat the clerics will be able to attend to the rest of the party instead of watching the hero!

Just one example on how to bypass your proposed ruleset and further break the game.

[Stonen]

You are wrong, if mobs damage were drasticly increased, only having HP would not suffice.
The moment that "HP tank" can't tank, people will start using tanks that actually have some damage mitigation.


As usual It's nigh impossible to find any logic in your post...

But a good durable ac is very gear dependant. If they tripple the damage only the elite players can tank a raid boss. I would rather see some other damage migitations that are more accessible.

[noinfo]

I like this solution! It will further pigeonhole wf fb barbs as the ONLY future tanks and further require reconstruct casters as hjealing class for all elite / epic rading. This will be due to every future wf barb taking the fortification feat to scale their fortification above the requirement for said quest at said difficulty!

At leat the clerics will be able to attend to the rest of the party instead of watching the hero!

Just one example on how to bypass your proposed ruleset and further break the game.

Yep and as long as they will ONLY ever run with someone with reconstruct, they will have 75% better fortification. Now if someone were to hit them with a curse against reconstruct we could all sit back and laugh at them.
Mind you as a result of the modifications the mobs hp, dps and to hit would drop so casters will probably let you be a stone so they can fw/nuke a bit, while the clerics drop some bb etc as well because they dont have to heal you at all and since others have valid ac it may be just as economical to put you in a backpack.

But look finally a actual use for that feat! another win.

Please provide another example for us all.

[Aaxeyu]

But a good durable ac is very gear dependant. If they tripple the damage only the elite players can tank a raid boss. I would rather see some other damage migitations that are more accessible.

Correction: Only the "elite players" can tank an elite raid boss.
Getting AC that's high enough for normal isn't really that hard.