Waitasecond....

[Impaqt]

If that's all there was then yes, I'd agree with you. But free metamagic feats, more skill points, and knowing more spells per level is huge. Big difference between knowing one level 4 spell at caster level 8 and knowing multiple level 4 spells (stoneskin, wall of fire, etc...).



I'm still learning this game coming from PnP DnD 3.5 and games like NVN 1 and 2 and Baldur's Gate, so I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything about DDO. It's just a shock to go from games where clerics are in the top 5 most powerful classes along with wizard/druid/artificer/psion to a bland mess.

I'm just really happy with my WF wizard now. Everything I wanted my cleric to be but wasn't.

I would still place clerics solidly in the Top 5 for what its worth....

1: Fleshy FvS
2: WF Sorc
(WIth 1 and 2 being fully interchangeable depending on what you prefer.....
3-4 Tie Cleric/Wizard

I have 4 clerics I still play in a regular basis and do a lot of soloing with.


5: Start the melee debate here if ya want too.

[hydra_ex]

I would still place clerics solidly in the Top 5 for what its worth....

1: Fleshy FvS
2: WF Sorc
(WIth 1 and 2 being fully interchangeable depending on what you prefer.....
3-4 Tie Cleric/Wizard

I have 4 clerics I still play in a regular basis and do a lot of soloing with.


5: Start the melee debate here if ya want too.

I think clerics have more solo potential than a WF sorc. Clerics have a static AoE that devils aren't immune to, which, IMO, makes them must more mana efficient and easier to solo than a sorc. But that's a different argument all together

PS Avatar stealer! I had this one first

[valorik]

I would still place clerics solidly in the Top 5 for what its worth....

1: Fleshy FvS
2: WF Sorc
(WIth 1 and 2 being fully interchangeable depending on what you prefer.....
3-4 Tie Cleric/Wizard

I have 4 clerics I still play in a regular basis and do a lot of soloing with.


5: Start the melee debate here if ya want too.

The big thing clerics/fvs would have a hell of a time soloing compared to casters is epic, there's nothing like firewall for epic, blade barrier doesn't even come close to being as effective.

[Impaqt]

I think clerics have more solo potential than a WF sorc. Clerics have a static AoE that devils aren't immune to, which, IMO, makes them must more mana efficient and easier to solo than a sorc. But that's a different argument all together

PS Avatar stealer! I had this one first

Yup, totally depends on the quest and the Sorcs spell book....

a THousand extra spell points is a lot of Banish's and Disintegrates if ya carry those 2 spells....

[zopzop]

The big thing clerics/fvs would have a hell of a time soloing compared to casters is epic, there's nothing like firewall for epic, blade barrier doesn't even come close to being as effective.

Yup and there you have it. Wizards generally have an annoying journey from level one to when they get stoneskin, displacement and firewall. But once they do, it's game over.

Even the jumbled mess that is the Pale Master is still better than anything clerics get. Those skeleton knights are type beefy and the skeleton mages get firewall. Between your summons, the Pale Master skellys, and your hireling ; you have a small army of stuff to throw at enemies to hold them off till you annihilate them with your spells (force missiles FTW).

[Jiipster]

Soloing to Firewall on a caster is ludicrously easy, especially with Veteran Status. Once you hit level 3 on a Wiz or 4 on a Sorc, you get Invisibility, and that is all you need to get you to level 7/8 - since very few quests require you to kill more than perhaps five or six monsters.

However, for late game soloing (say, Battlefield) I'll take a Divine Caster over an Arcane.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

If that's all there was then yes, I'd agree with you. But free metamagic feats, more skill points, and knowing more spells per level is huge. Big difference between knowing one level 4 spell at caster level 8 and knowing multiple level 4 spells (stoneskin, wall of fire, etc...).

That's trivial in this game given the abundance of consumable magic. Stoneskin, use wands. GH, use scrolls. And with a sorc's chr, they also have access to all clerics scrolls and wands. Skills - what skills does your wiz take? Most skills in this game are useless for a casting class (umd, balance, concentration...what else?). Feats is handy, except with the current SP system wizards can't afford to have those metas engaged as much as a sorc. Both have their place, but you don't understand how sorcs and wizards stack up in this game yet.

I'm still learning this game coming from PnP DnD 3.5 and games like NVN 1 and 2 and Baldur's Gate, so I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything about DDO. It's just a shock to go from games where clerics are in the top 5 most powerful classes along with wizard/druid/artificer/psion to a bland mess.

I'm just really happy with my WF wizard now. Everything I wanted my cleric to be but wasn't.

It's in the top 5 here too.

[Djimonte]

I need a heal "waaaaah" I need a heal I need a heal I need a heal I need a heal I need aheal waaaaaaaa
heal me heal me heal me heal me....
qouting the famous Richard Pyror buy yourself a pot and a smile .and ****

[phalaeo]

I guess I should have just started a "FvS vs. Cleric", "Divine vs. Arcane Soloing" or a general pet peeve thread?

You're all expressing very valid opinions and worthwhile discussions...in the wrong thread.....

[Laretes]

Buffs that divine casters can give you and the one few cc spells they have that are worthwhile (list not complete):

Deathward
Prayer
Recitation
Freedom of Movement
Spell Resist
Greater Command
Symbol of Persuasion

Plus the self-only buffs. All in all, it can keep up with haste / blur / displacement / jump / stoneskin.

All situational of course, yadda yadda...

[Nick_RC]

I would still place clerics solidly in the Top 5 for what its worth....

1: Fleshy FvS
2: WF Sorc
(WIth 1 and 2 being fully interchangeable depending on what you prefer.....
3-4 Tie Cleric/Wizard

I have 4 clerics I still play in a regular basis and do a lot of soloing with.


5: Start the melee debate here if ya want too.

fleshy fvs? In your opinion why can't a wf be as good if not better than their fleshy counterparts? Ul have to let me knw which quests the wf might have probs with and il have to prove u wrong ;-)

N

[Impaqt]

fleshy fvs? In your opinion why can't a wf be as good if not better than their fleshy counterparts? Ul have to let me knw which quests the wf might have probs with and il have to prove u wrong ;-)

N

lower self healing, poor Favored Weapon, terrible Capstone spell.

Not saying it cant be done. an exceptional player like yourself most certainly can do it. Most players looking for a "Best soloer" are not going to fair as well.

[TheDjinnFor]

fleshy fvs? In your opinion why can't a wf be as good if not better than their fleshy counterparts? Ul have to let me knw which quests the wf might have probs with and il have to prove u wrong ;-)

N

I'd rather play a squishy FvS and have extra mana for lots of spells than a melee tank FvS and use extra mana healing myself.

But that's just IMO.

[Nick_RC]

lower self healing, poor Favored Weapon, terrible Capstone spell.

Not saying it cant be done. an exceptional player like yourself most certainly can do it. Most players looking for a "Best soloer" are not going to fair as well.

Oh sheesh ul make me blush ;-)

I thought long and hard as to what to do with the fvs I would roll up. Everything just stacked up in the warforgeds favor. I was tempted their for a while to go the elf monk splash. Il be posting thoughts on some different melée capable fvs builds.

But to address ur points

1. havnt found the self healing an issue at all. I call a healer a gimp if he can't keep a wf barb up...keeping my own dr 13 ass alive is no problemo!

2. Epic SoS. Epic cloudburst be on the way soon also. The greatsword is an aveage weapon overall but with the SoS u got a great crittable dps weapon and for the high fort types the high base damage is on par with other 2 handers.
But it's also low maintenance from a feat standpoint which is why I like it the most. I'm really not losing anything too signifcant by not taking the 2 handed line as I twitch 2 step (and I'm not a barb/pali) so get negligible bonuses to the fighting style. Conversely if I'm an elf or any other one handed race I'm gonna have to splash monk to get the feats I need to incorporate the 2wf line. And I'm not a fan of splashing monk On a fvs. Cleric absolutely. Fvs you lose to much IMHO.

3. Capstone - yeah it's junk. I got nothing. But If ur using any other capstone then ur likely not melée capable and that in and of itself reduces ur solo viability.

I'm hungover so take tbs with a grain of salt. Hope ur doin good anyway bud!

N

[Hellllboy]

I'm doing some reading about PnP Clerical spells and I'm wondering why we don't have them in game- perhaps those of you more familiar with PnP could give some insight on this....

Cold spells- There seem to be quite a few cold spells available to Clerics in PnP

Stoneskin- Found this description, which sounds a lot like Stoneskin
Stone Body: DR 10 Adamantine per caster level

A whole bunch of AOE-looking save or dies that seem to act like Wail of the Banshee.

Any opinions on why these aren't in game? I don't think that allowing Clerics to Stoneskin would be game breaking, nor would the addition of a cold spell or two. Anything "Wail-esque" might be a bit overpowered (IMO), but I am curious as to why those AOEs are not there.

Thanks for the discussion and any insight you may have.

No disrespect,

But-Clerics are one of the most potent classes in this game (perhaps a close second to FvS). I think the key to why you don’t see a lot of this stuff is "Balance".

In the hands of the right player-this class can accomplish almost anything by themselves.

[zopzop]

No disrespect,

But-Clerics are one of the most potent classes in this game (perhaps a close second to FvS). I think the key to why you don’t see a lot of this stuff is "Balance".

In the hands of the right player-this class can accomplish almost anything by themselves.

Not trying to pick a fight, but this can't be accurate. Pure clerics are some of the blandest characters in DDO. I had a level 6 drow cleric and I couldn't delete her fast enough once I found out her armor class means jack after lvl 12 or so.

I made me a WF Wizard and I'm lovin' life (more offense, better defense, healing, better buffs, more CC, better debuffs, etc...).

But back on topic , a friend of mine showed me a thread in this forum of a monk/rogue/cleric multi and I figured what the heck let me try it.

MUCH BETTER. I didn't go rogue because I don't care about traps and didn't want to lose another caster level but man a measly 2 levels of monk saved the sorry cleric. Evasion, Wis bonus to AC, free feats, and nice stat boosts that stack with anything (the stances). So far that 2 monk/18 cleric is everything I wanted my drow cleric to be (high AC spell caster). I'm just upset that it needed the monk to save it. Thankfully I had enough points saved up to buy the Monk class (was saving up to buy a few +2 Tomes but this was way worth it).

[Hellllboy]

Not trying to pick a fight, but this can't be accurate. Pure clerics are some of the blandest characters in DDO. I had a level 6 drow cleric and I couldn't delete her fast enough once I found out her armor class means jack after lvl 12 or so.

I made me a WF Wizard and I'm lovin' life (more offense, better defense, healing, better buffs, more CC, better debuffs, etc...).

But back on topic , a friend of mine showed me a thread in this forum of a monk/rogue/cleric multi and I figured what the heck let me try it.

MUCH BETTER. I didn't go rogue because I don't care about traps and didn't want to lose another caster level but man a measly 2 levels of monk saved the sorry cleric. Evasion, Wis bonus to AC, free feats, and nice stat boosts that stack with anything (the stances). So far that 2 monk/18 cleric is everything I wanted my drow cleric to be (high AC spell caster). I'm just upset that it needed the monk to save it. Thankfully I had enough points saved up to buy the Monk class (was saving up to buy a few +2 Tomes but this was way worth it).

Is a level 6 Drow Cleric the only sample of a Cleric you have been exposed to? If so-I could suggest that you may say the same thing about virtually any class at that stage in development.

Try bringing one to cap to get a better snapshot of their potential.

[gavagai]

Yup and there you have it. Wizards generally have an annoying journey from level one to when they get stoneskin, displacement and firewall. But once they do, it's game over.

Not trying to pick a fight, but this can't be accurate. Pure clerics are some of the blandest characters in DDO. I had a level 6 drow cleric and I couldn't delete her fast enough once I found out her armor class means jack after lvl 12 or so.

I made me a WF Wizard and I'm lovin' life (more offense, better defense, healing, better buffs, more CC, better debuffs, etc...).

But back on topic , a friend of mine showed me a thread in this forum of a monk/rogue/cleric multi and I figured what the heck let me try it.

MUCH BETTER. I didn't go rogue because I don't care about traps and didn't want to lose another caster level but man a measly 2 levels of monk saved the sorry cleric. Evasion, Wis bonus to AC, free feats, and nice stat boosts that stack with anything (the stances). So far that 2 monk/18 cleric is everything I wanted my drow cleric to be (high AC spell caster). I'm just upset that it needed the monk to save it. Thankfully I had enough points saved up to buy the Monk class (was saving up to buy a few +2 Tomes but this was way worth it).

First, gain some levels. Any character is bland at level 6. Even WF Sorcs are still running with Greataxes at lvl 6 because their spells haven't fully caught up with melee. Clerics have their Holy Pwnsauce moment at level 11, with Blade Barrier and Heal. When mobs become immune to firewall, many Arcanes go into haste-bot/buffbot mode until boss fights. Understanding balance requires a game-wide perspective, not broad generalizations from a few quotes and limited game experience.

Second, you mention the Valiance build, which is arguably one of the strongest (albeit gear-intensive) solo builds I've seen. The 2 monk isn't "saving" it; the 17 Cleric is "making" it, the monk adds synergy. The same could be said of WF/Wizard synergy: a Wiz is ok, but a WF Wiz becomes amazing.

Lastly, I think you're approaching this too much from a single-player/solo mindset. In NWN (and PnP to a lesser degree) challenges are scaled to a single player, and most builds are uber given the ease of the content. In NWN1 my first character was a 10 Con Wiz/Arcane Archer and I had few troubles overcoming any obstacle. But in DDO, groups and balance are more crucial to overcome many challenges.

Clerics have everything they need to contribute with heals, buffs, melee, and offensive spells; only a few, advanced WF Wiz builds can do all of that as easily. When you try to get into raids, you'll find that good Clerics and good WF Wizzies are both good things, but capable of doing different things, equally important.

As for having more fun with the WF Wiz: that's the beauty of having so many D&D inspired games. Variations of implementation give you the chance to rediscover classes. How boring would it be if they all used the same system, exploits, &c?

[zopzop]

Is a level 6 Drow Cleric the only sample of a Cleric you have been exposed to? If so-I could suggest that you may say the same thing about virtually any class at that stage in development.

I was actually lovin' my level 6 drow cleric until I came to the forums and found out that one of the things I loved about her, her high AC, was about to go downhill, FAST. Reading up some more I found out that clerics are actually LOW AC characters in DDO (which boggles the mind).

I realized that I was never going to do awesome AoE damage and become a boss killer, that was the mages job. I realized I wasn't going to have 800 HP and be a melee god, that was the figher/barb/rangers job, I realized I wasn't going to be a skill monkey do-it-all member of the party, that's the bard/rogues job.

All I wanted was moderate melee, moderate damage, self healing, some CC, and high AC. The high AC part was crucial to me because if it wasn't there, I may as well gone WF wizard.

The pure cleric build was epic fail on the AC part. But the monk/cleric is exactly what I was looking for.

The 2 monk isn't "saving" it; the 17 Cleric is "making" it, the monk adds synergy.

The monk is most assuredly saving the cleric class for me. Without it, and the high ac potential it provides, the cleric is nothing more than a ghetto mage.

As for having more fun with the WF Wiz: that's the beauty of having so many D&D inspired games. Variations of implementation give you the chance to rediscover classes. How boring would it be if they all used the same system, exploits, &c?

I agree with you on this. Turbine boosted a few classes that were "meh" in PnP (monk and paladin) and made them enjoyable, respected classes. They boosted the mage with the elemental/force damage enhacements. But they NERFED clerics (crappy spell selection, no domains, no prestige classes, etc....).

The poor cleric got a one-two KO punch : other classes boosted up, the cleric class nerfed down.

[Visty]

I was actually lovin' my level 6 drow cleric until I came to the forums and found out that one of the things I loved about her, her high AC, was about to go downhill, FAST. Reading up some more I found out that clerics are actually LOW AC characters in DDO (which boggles the mind).


I realized that I was never going to do awesome AoE damage and become a boss killer, that was the mages job. I realized I wasn't going to have 800 HP and be a melee god, that was the figher/barb/rangers job, I realized I wasn't going to be a skill monkey do-it-all member of the party, that's the bard/rogues job.

All I wanted was moderate melee, moderate damage, self healing, some CC, and high AC. The high AC part was crucial to me because if it wasn't there, I may as well gone WF wizard.

The pure cleric build was epic fail on the AC part. But the monk/cleric is exactly what I was looking for.



The monk is most assuredly saving the cleric class for me. Without it, and the high ac potential it provides, the cleric is nothing more than a ghetto mage.



I agree with you on this. Turbine boosted a few classes that were "meh" in PnP (monk and paladin) and made them enjoyable, respected classes. They boosted the mage with the elemental/force damage enhacements. But they NERFED clerics (crappy spell selection, no domains, no prestige classes, etc....).

The poor cleric got a one-two KO punch : other classes boosted up, the cleric class nerfed down.

it depends how you build them. one of my clerics can easily tank sally (with a lvl of barb but that doesnt add anything to ac and was just to have intimidate as classskill)
its perfectly doable to do a s&b plate tank though it takes alot of grinding