Waitasecond....

[phalaeo]

I'm doing some reading about PnP Clerical spells and I'm wondering why we don't have them in game- perhaps those of you more familiar with PnP could give some insight on this....

Cold spells- There seem to be quite a few cold spells available to Clerics in PnP

Stoneskin- Found this description, which sounds a lot like Stoneskin
Stone Body: DR 10 Adamantine per caster level

A whole bunch of AOE-looking save or dies that seem to act like Wail of the Banshee.

Any opinions on why these aren't in game? I don't think that allowing Clerics to Stoneskin would be game breaking, nor would the addition of a cold spell or two. Anything "Wail-esque" might be a bit overpowered (IMO), but I am curious as to why those AOEs are not there.

Thanks for the discussion and any insight you may have.

[zopzop]

Welcome to my world! I mean I can understand them not implementing things like Domains if they were too hard to do. But there's NO excuse for leaving out some dang useful cleric spells (Entropic Shield, Dispel Evil, Sanctuary, Antilife Shell, and Righteous Might). Hardly overpowering but very useful.

What's worse clerics have no "prestige classes". Where is the Radiant Servant? The Bone Knight (I mean this is an Eberron PrC why isn't it in game?!)? The Dweomerkeeper? Heck I'd even settle for the Talontar Blightlord or Master of Shrouds. All awesome.

I'm hoping by the next update they fix the Pale Master PrC and give clerics some love

[Orratti]

Sometimes I think we should consider ourselves lucky clerics even have damaging spells in this game.

[KKDragonLord]

The lack of Sanctuary and Righteous Might are Criminal! These are signature spells of the class...

[zopzop]

@ KKDragonLord

Laugh all you want but Clerics are nothing more than healbots now (actually they aren't even the best at that since FvS can do it better with better class abilities too).

No domains, no prestige class enhacements, garbage spell damage, sub par buffs, garbage AC, and meh melee damage. Their best abilities were never implemented in this game and to add insult to injury some of their most useful spells weren't either.

A wizard has FAR superior spell damage, FAR superior buffs, CC, debuffs, and utility spells; all this without their fabled polymorph line of spells.

[KKDragonLord]

@ KKDragonLord

Laugh all you want but Clerics are nothing more than healbots now (actually they aren't even the best at that since FvS can do it better with better class abilities too).

No domains, no prestige class enhacements, garbage spell damage, sub par buffs, garbage AC, and meh melee damage. Their best abilities were never implemented in this game and to add insult to injury some of their most useful spells weren't either.

A wizard has FAR superior spell damage, FAR superior buffs, CC, debuffs, and utility spells; all this without their fabled polymorph line of spells.

Yeah, thats why clerics can Solo quests most classes cant even dream of...
try learning the game a bit before spewing nonsese pls

Try leveling a wiz and a cleric and see which one fares better overall.

[barongt]

Yeah, thats why clerics can Solo quests most classes cant even dream of...
try learning the game a bit before spewing nonsese pls

Try leveling a wiz and a cleric and see which one fares better overall.

Try leveling a Cleric and a FvS and see which fares better overall (to cap, none of this "Clerics get abilities sooner" nonsense.)

[KKDragonLord]

Try leveling a Cleric and a FvS and see which fares better overall (to cap, none of this "Clerics get abilities sooner" nonsense.)

woot? we were talking about Divine spells.
If you read the context i was talking about the Clerics X wizards comparison zopzop was making.

[Doganpc]

Try leveling a Cleric and a FvS and see which fares better overall (to cap, none of this "Clerics get abilities sooner" nonsense.)

Way to miss the point. Favored Souls are to Clerics what Sorcerors are to Wizards. More spell casting, less versatility. Inherent versatility not what you can squeeze out with wands, scrolls, or UMD.

This might make too much sense, but if you give the Cleric more, you take a lot away from the Wizards/Sorcerors. Who would play a Wizard when you can play Cleric and do just as much with more HP and Armor (+lower cost)? As a developer you have to create a distinction between Cleric and Wizard so players have a reason to play them! Another part of this is done with those in-game nudges where you need a certain stat at a certain level to open/unlock. In short, Clerics got the Heals, but Wizards got the Offense.

Dogan
Squishy and Powerful or Sufficient and Supporting?

[barongt]

woot? we were talking about Divine spells.
If you read the context i was talking about the Clerics X wizards comparison zopzop was making.

I was referring to your statement that Clerics can solo quests that most other classes can't.

[lifestaker]

Yeah, thats why clerics can Solo quests most classes cant even dream of...
try learning the game a bit before spewing nonsese pls

Try leveling a wiz and a cleric and see which one fares better overall.

a clr/fvs can solo a lot of things that others can't but a caster can solo things a clr can't. it is all in the build and player. Don't assume that a clr is unstoppable just due to self healing, and don't think a caster can't solo due to things having a fire resist.

as far as leveling they should lvl the same unless you do not know how to play given class.

[DoctorWhofan]

Sometimes I think we should consider ourselves lucky clerics even have damaging spells in this game.

Ah...someone remembers! There was a time we could only be healbots.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

@ KKDragonLord

Laugh all you want but Clerics are nothing more than healbots now (actually they aren't even the best at that since FvS can do it better with better class abilities too).

No domains, no prestige class enhacements, garbage spell damage, sub par buffs, garbage AC, and meh melee damage. Their best abilities were never implemented in this game and to add insult to injury some of their most useful spells weren't either.

A wizard has FAR superior spell damage, FAR superior buffs, CC, debuffs, and utility spells; all this without their fabled polymorph line of spells.

My cleric can solo more easily then my sorc. While a lot is needed in this game for clerics to really bring them out, you clearly don't have a clue about Clerics in this game if you think they are just healbots.

[taurean430]

@ KKDragonLord

Laugh all you want but Clerics are nothing more than healbots now (actually they aren't even the best at that since FvS can do it better with better class abilities too).

No domains, no prestige class enhacements, garbage spell damage, sub par buffs, garbage AC, and meh melee damage. Their best abilities were never implemented in this game and to add insult to injury some of their most useful spells weren't either.

A wizard has FAR superior spell damage, FAR superior buffs, CC, debuffs, and utility spells; all this without their fabled polymorph line of spells.

You sound very much like the type of player I would have to remind that I haven't had to heal myself once; yet have taken out the majority of mobs, and am now beating the hell out of the boss. Because it seems to me that most of the players outside of raids that tantrum into the mic expecting a nannybot healer need to die a few times. It might actually help them appreciate the time, expenses, and sacrifices that people make to keep people up and rolling. Myself, and many other players have turned keeping the party up and significantly contributing to damage done to the mobs/bosses into clockwork. Meanwhile people who adopt a similar attitude I see 3-6 levels behind me due to waiting for hours, ( in some cases), for a nannybot instead of learning how to mitigate damage.

I've been fortunate enough to play a wizard to 20, and am working on my second at this time. However my main is a TR Favored Soul/Monk Splash. A cleric at my level has much better spell selection, and is more versatile and party friendly. While the two classes are not balanced properly imho in this game. Without either you'd be a stain on the wall in some boss room in a dungeon.

[KKDragonLord]

I was referring to your statement that Clerics can solo quests that most other classes can't.

do you have any idea what Context even means?

You know... the Reason why we Quote stuff in our posts and all that...

If you want to discuss Cleric soloability talk to Lorien over here:

My cleric can solo more easily then my sorc. While a lot is needed in this game for clerics to really bring them out, you clearly don't have a clue about Clerics in this game if you think they are just healbots.

[zopzop]

In short, Clerics got the Heals, but Wizards got the Offense.

Dogan
Squishy and Powerful or Sufficient and Supporting?

Except that's not what happened. Clerics got the heals but so did wizards (see warforged). Now add to that absolutely the BEST offensive spells and damage, the BEST buff spells (see blur, displacement, haste and stoneskin), the BEST utility spells, and the BEST crowd control spells (mass charm, halt undead, web) and we have problems.

Now also include MORE skill points and free metamagic feats and what do you have?

A warforged wizard > anything cleric.

My cleric can solo more easily then my sorc.

That's probably true but I was talking about wizards. Sorcs get their spells later than wizards and have a limit as to how much they know. And unlike the FvS and cleric, there are a lot more useful arcane spells so you really are in a bind as to what to choose.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

That's probably true but I was talking about wizards. Sorcs get their spells later than wizards and have a limit as to how much they know. And unlike the FvS and cleric, there are a lot more useful arcane spells so you really are in a bind as to what to choose.

My WF wiz is similar in solo ability to my cleric, but a non WF wiz would fall behind both cleric and non WF sorc.

As for getting their spells 1 level later... who the heck cares, that really doesn't make much difference.

You also ignored the most important part, if you think Clerics can only be healers you don't have a clue what they are capable of.

[KKDragonLord]

Except that's not what happened. Clerics got the heals but so did wizards (see warforged). Now add to that absolutely the BEST offensive spells and damage, the BEST buff spells (see blur, displacement, haste and stoneskin), the BEST utility spells, and the BEST crowd control spells (mass charm, halt undead, web) and we have problems.

Now also include MORE skill points and free metamagic feats and what do you have?

A warforged wizard > anything cleric.

That's probably true but I was talking about wizards. Sorcs get their spells later than wizards and have a limit as to how much they know. And unlike the FvS and cleric, there are a lot more useful arcane spells so you really are in a bind as to what to choose.

Right... so now Sorcs are always Warforged Healers, thats why i can't ever use my Bladesworn Transformation without risking certain Death because every sorcerer i ever went in raids with (except for a few VODs) prefers to do other stuff with their time than heal the forged (which clerics so readily do with Heals and Mass Healls).

Sorcs that repair warforged occasionally are not completely rare, but they are far far away from taking the place of true healers in the Actual game.

Usually, WF sorcs are a boon to a party because they Self Heal, making the Healer jobs much easier.

The good Clerics i have seen always have the option of letting incompetent pugs die and just kill stuff with BBs, destruction, implosion and whatnot if they don't feel like healing will be more effective.

[Impaqt]

a clr/fvs can solo a lot of things that others can't but a caster can solo things a clr can't.

Really? Like what?

[zopzop]

As for getting their spells 1 level later... who the heck cares, that really doesn't make much difference.

If that's all there was then yes, I'd agree with you. But free metamagic feats, more skill points, and knowing more spells per level is huge. Big difference between knowing one level 4 spell at caster level 8 and knowing multiple level 4 spells (stoneskin, wall of fire, etc...).

You also ignored the most important part, if you think Clerics can only be healers you don't have a clue what they are capable of.

I'm still learning this game coming from PnP DnD 3.5 and games like NVN 1 and 2 and Baldur's Gate, so I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything about DDO. It's just a shock to go from games where clerics are in the top 5 most powerful classes along with wizard/druid/artificer/psion to a bland mess.

I'm just really happy with my WF wizard now. Everything I wanted my cleric to be but wasn't.