Which Defender build is better?

[sephiroth1084]

Below are two versions of basically the same character, one dwarf, one human.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 382
Spell Points: 205 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 27
Reflex: 17
Will: 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    25
Dexterity            14                    17
Constitution         16                    20
Intelligence         12                    14
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             14                    19

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 13
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               2                    12
Bluff                 2                     4
Concentration         3                     8
Diplomacy             2                     4
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     4
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            6                    29
Jump                  7                    12
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     2
Search                1                     4
Spot                 -1                     0
Swim                  3                     7
Tumble                n/a                   5
Use Magic Device      4                    15

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Student of the Sword


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III

[sephiroth1084]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 362
Spell Points: 225 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 26
Reflex: 17
Will: 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    26
Dexterity            14                    17
Constitution         15                    19
Intelligence         12                    14
Wisdom                8                    11
Charisma             15                    19

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 14
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    14
Bluff                 2                     4
Concentration         2                     7
Diplomacy             2                     5
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     4
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            6                    30
Jump                  7                    17
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     2
Search                1                     2
Spot                 -1                     0
Swim                  3                     8
Tumble                3                     7
Use Magic Device      4                    15

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Student of the Sword


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I

[sephiroth1084]

The Human version gains:
-Khopesh
-Intimidate +1
-Healing Amp +10%
-Str +1
-Extra skill point/level
-LoH +1

The Dwarf version gains:
-AC +2 via Max Dex
-Damage +2
-Con +1

On paper, it seems like the dwarf will have slightly better HP, AC and damage vs. crit-immune monsters, while the human will be more easily healed, have a little more healing, and will do quite a bit more damage vs. crittable monsters (khopesh DPS vs. dwarven axe DPS).

Essentially the reasoning for considering dwarf is twofold: the better AC and because I'll have a Mineral II dwarven axe from my first life. I'll have enough characters in The Shroud that generating ingredients to do recrafting shouldn't be too much of a pain in the ass, but it's still quite a bit of time and effort.

[sephiroth1084]

Do you other denizens of the forums think the benefits of going dwarf outweigh those of going human?

[krud]

I'd go dwarf. IMO, most of the advantages of human would probably show more if you went 2rog instead of 2ftr; i.e. extra skill points and healing amp for self cast heal scrolls. On a 2ftr splash those two factors are much less important. I'm a tightwad with my shroud ingredients, so not having to recraft would also be a big deal for me.

[lord_of_rage]

The reason Im going human over dwarf is I wanted to squeeze a self healing option out of it. Ive rolled a 32pt dwarf version as well they are both exellent builds. I prefer the human but thats just me. Both will be a blast.

[sephiroth1084]

The reason Im going human over dwarf is I wanted to squeeze a self healing option out of it. Ive rolled a 32pt dwarf version as well they are both exellent builds. I prefer the human but thats just me. Both will be a blast.

My plan right now, actually, is to TR my 14/6 Pal/Fighter into either a 20 Fighter or an 18 Fighter/2 Pal, then into an 18 Pal/2 Fighter. Got that straight? Heh hehe. During his life as a Fighter I plan on seeing how I like having both an AC and DPS option, and will likely have a better idea in his final life whether I'd prefer TWF-->GTWF or Maximize, Quicken and something else.

For the time being, though, I want to compare just the two builds I presented as they are now.

[ArtosKincaid]

I'd go human, but I like having the extra skill points and Khopesh.

I also haven't had to farm shroud for ingredients yet, but I'm guessing it's going to drive me nuts, so avoiding recrafting would likely factor into my decision more if I had a good idea of just how much effort it was going to take to get the stuff in the first place.

[sephiroth1084]

I'd go human, but I like having the extra skill points and Khopesh.

I also haven't had to farm shroud for ingredients yet, but I'm guessing it's going to drive me nuts, so avoiding recrafting would likely factor into my decision more if I had a good idea of just how much effort it was going to take to get the stuff in the first place.

I'd say, figure about 10-15 runs for a single shard, and 20-30 for a dual shard item, though trading and charitable guildies can help drive those numbers down a bit.

On my end the concern is less with time spent running The Shroud for this stuff, pe se (since I have several characters I can run through there right now), but that I've been leveling a few other characters who are all competing for ingredients. As it is, I've shelved my level 20 archer for the time being, and my rogue has stolen his ingredients.

Man, I ****ing hope we get greensteel decomposition sometime in the not too distant future! I think that in such an event, even before I address my own items, I'll kick Hordo until he breaks down that GS Shuriken and puts those ingredients to something more useful!


Back to the topic at hand...I suppose what I'm stuck on the most is whether I want the extra AC from going dwarf (every little bit counts, and I kind of hate having more Dex than fits into my armor), and the higher rate of crits from the khopesh (and subsequently greater number of crit exalted smites). The other stuff is a factor, certainly, but I think this is really the biggest sticking point. On a 32 pter I'd go with the human for certain, but with 36, the stats work out almost the same in both cases, so the choice isn't quite so clear.

Some guildies prompted me to go dwarf, but I think they're somewhat biased. Perhaps I'll pin this decision on whether I take a cleanser (dwarf) on my 60th Shroud coming up, or a +3 Cha tome (human). Or, if I stick out to my 20th ToD (going much slower than the Shroud completions) and manage to acquire a +4 Cha tome (dwarf) along the way.

Still, some more elaborate suggestions would be welcome.