Turning Undead

[Kalar1]

Hi All,

I've just reincarnated my cleric to see if I could make sense of this seemingly broken Turn Undead Ability. I will post some results of what I have found and how I believe the calculations work for turn undead. I have read a lot of your posts on here and sorry if this seems like a repeat event.

If you find the information usful I am glad. If not please refrain from flaming the post with negativity. Just move on to something you find more interesting. It is my hope that someday Turning will be fixed and I have a suggestion at the end that may help. I hope the Dev's take notice!

So please enjoy and feel free to comment or add suggestions. I know there is a lot of gear out there for clerics to use but I didn't add anything in here that takes any work to get and remember the cleric used in this illustration is a level 8 cleric.

As this cleric levels and gets more attractive gear I may add some additional data to the post.

Cheers and look forward to seeing your comments:

Table: Turning Undead
Turning Check Result Most Powerful Undead Affected(Maximum Hit Dice)
0 or lower Cleric’s level – 4
1–3 Cleric’s level – 3
4–6 Cleric’s level – 2
7–9 Cleric’s level – 1
10–12 Cleric’s level
13–15 Cleric’s level + 1
16–18 Cleric’s level + 2
19–21 Cleric’s level + 3
22 or higher Cleric’s level + 4

PART 1: Cleric Level 8 – Turn Undead Analysis

Charisma 22 - Modifier +6

Reincarnate I - Modifier +2

Cleric Improved Turning – Modifier +1

Against 5 Level 6 Arcus Skeletons (HD 8):

FIRST TURN ATTEMPT:
(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 1: you hit foes up to 10 hit dice.
(Combat): You roll for turning damage. You roll a 6: 23 total hit dice of enemies can be turned..
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Cower Undead.
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Cower Undead.
RESULTS: 2 of the Level 6 Skelles Cower

FIRST TURN ATTEMPT ANALYSIS:
Turn Check: 1d20 + CHA mod = Cleric Level + (0 to 4) Max HD turned
So: 1 [1d20] + 6 [Cha Mod] = 7 (Turn Table = -1)
8 [Cleric Level] + 2 [True Reincarnate] + 1 [Enhancement] -1 [Turn Table] = 10

Therefore;
Creatures up to HD 10 will be affected:

Turning Damage:
Turn Damage Check: 2d6 + Cleric Level + Cha Mod + All Modifiers = MaxHD
So: 6 [2d6] +8 [Cleric Level] +6 [CHA MOD] +2 [True Reincarnate] +1 [Enh I] = 23 MaxHD

COMMENTS:
10 is not double the Skeletons 8HD therefore none will be destroyed.
16 HD of Skeletons were turned (2 Skeletons), since 23-16=7 there was not enough on the roll to turn the third skeleton on this attempt.


SECOND TURN ATTEMPT:
(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 18: you hit foes up to 15 hit dice.
(Combat): You roll for turning damage. You roll a 7: 24 total hit dice of enemies can be turned..
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Cower Undead.
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Cower Undead.
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Cower Undead.
RESULTS: 3 of the Level 6 Skelles Cower

SECOND TURN ATTEMPT ANALYSIS:

So: 18 [1d20] + 6 [Cha Mod] = 24 (Turn Table = +4)
8 [Cleric Level] + 2 [True Reincarnate] + 1 [Enhancement] +4 [Turn Table] = 15

Therefore;
Creatures up to HD 15 will be affected:

Turning Damage:
Turn Damage Check: 2d6 + Cleric Level + Cha Mod + All Modifiers = MaxHD
So: 7 [2d6] +8 [Cleric Level] +6 [CHA MOD] +2 [True Reincarnate] +1 [Enh I] = 24 MaxHD

COMMENTS:
15 is not double the Skeletons 8HD therefore none will be destroyed.
24 HD of Skeletons were turned (3 Skeletons), since 24-24=0 there was not enough on the roll to turn the forth skeleton on this attempt.
In Summary, without any additional gear or the Seek Eternal Rest Spell this build at this level would never get the 16 required to turn these 8HD Arcus Skeletons.


PART 2: Sacred to the calculation.

PART 2: Cleric Level 8 – Turn Undead Analysis (Sacred Item Added)

Charisma 22 - Modifier +6

Reincarnate I - Modifier +2

Cleric Improved Turning – Modifier +1

Sacred Bonus – Modifier +2

Against 5 Level 6 Arcus Skeletons (HD 8):

FIRST TURN ATTEMPT: (Ok Two 20’s in a row, the odds, the odds)
(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 20: you hit foes up to 17 hit dice.
(Combat): You roll for turning damage. You roll a 9: 28 total hit dice of enemies can be turned..
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Cower Undead.
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Cower Undead.
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Cower Undead.
RESULTS: 3 of the Level 6 Skelles Cower

FIRST TURN ATTEMPT ANALYSIS:
Turn Check: 1d20 + CHA mod = Cleric Level + (0 to 4) Max HD turned
So: 20 [1d20] + 6 [Cha Mod] = 27 (Turn Table = +4)
8 [Cleric Level] + 2 [True Reincarnate] + 1 [Enhancement] +4 [Turn Table] +2 Sacred = 17

Therefore;
Creatures up to HD 17 will be affected:

Turning Damage:
Turn Damage Check: 2d6 + Cleric Level + Cha Mod + All Modifiers = MaxHD
So: 9 [2d6] +8 [Cleric Level] +6 [CHA MOD] +2 [True Reincarnate] +1 [Enh I] +2 [Sacred] = 28 MaxHD

COMMENTS:
17 is double the Skeletons 8HD therefore I expected something to be destroyed.
24 HD of Skeletons were turned (3 Skeletons), since 28-24=4 there was not enough on the roll to turn the forth skeleton on this attempt.

SECOND TURN ATTEMPT:
(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 20: you hit foes up to 17 hit dice.
(Combat): You roll for turning damage. You roll a 11: 30 total hit dice of enemies can be turned..
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Cower Undead.
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Cower Undead.

RESULTS: 2 of the Level 6 Skelles Cower

SECOND TURN ATTEMPT:

So: 20 [1d20] + 6 [Cha Mod] = 26 (Turn Table = +4)
8 [Cleric Level] + 2 [True Reincarnate] + 1 [Enhancement] +4 [Turn Table] +2 Sacred = 17

Therefore;
Creatures up to HD 17 will be affected:

Turning Damage:
Turn Damage Check: 2d6 + Cleric Level + Cha Mod + All Modifiers = MaxHD
So: 11 [2d6] +8 [Cleric Level] +6 [CHA MOD] +2 [True Reincarnate] +1 [Enh I] +2 [Sacred] = 30 MaxHD

COMMENTS:
17 again is double the Skeletons 8HD therefore again I would expect to destroy undead when facing 2 Arcus Skeletons of 8HD each.
16 HD of Skeletons were turned (2 Skeletons), since 30-16=14 I assume I would have needed 32HD or a roll of 13 on the 2d6 to Destroy these two skeletons.

At this point I was using a table posted by another community member stating the HD of this undead creature. It looks like this table is incorrect. Please read on.

PART 3: Cleric Level 8 – Turn Undead Analysis (With Sacred and SER Spell)
NOTE: PLEASE READ ABOVE EXAMPLES AS WELL

Charisma 22 - Modifier +6
Reincarnate I - Modifier +2
Cleric Improved Turning – Modifier +1
Sacred Necklace – Modifier +2
Seek Eternal Rest Spell – Modifier +4
Against 4 Level 6 Arcus Skeletons (HD 8):

FIRST TURN ATTEMPT:
(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 9: you hit foes up to 18 hit dice.
(Combat): You roll for turning damage. You roll a 6: 29 total hit dice of enemies can be turned..
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Destroy Undead. (Combat): You killed Skeleton Arcus.
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Destroy Undead. (Combat): You killed Skeleton Arcus.
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Destroy Undead. (Combat): You killed Skeleton Arcus.

RESULTS: 3 of the Level 6 Skelles Destroyed

FIRST TURN ATTEMPT ANALYSIS:

Turn Check: 1d20 + CHA mod = Cleric Level + (0 to 4) Max HD turned
So: 9 [1d20] + 6 [Cha Mod] = 15 (Turn Table = +1)
8 [Cleric Level] + 2 [True Reincarnate] + 1 [Enhancement] +1 [Turn Table] +2 [Sacred Item] +4 [SER Spell] = 18

Therefore;
Creatures up to HD 18 will be affected:

Turning Damage:
Turn Damage Check: 2d6 + Cleric Level + Cha Mod + All Modifiers = MaxHD
So: 6 [2d6] +8 [Cleric Level] +6 [CHA MOD] +2 [True Reincarnate] +1 [Enh I] +2 (Sacred Item] +4 [SER Spell] = 29 MaxHD

IN REVIEW:
So in this example (3) Level 6 Arcus Skeletons were destroyed. The turn check was 18 and the Turn Damage was 29.
In the above post (Part II Second Turn Attempt) with a turn check of 17 and a turn damage of 30 the (3) skeletons were only sent cowering.
It has been stated that Arcus Skeletons have an 8HD. Both rolls of 17 and 18 on the turn check are double the 8HD which should have triggered for outright destruction of the skeletons. This leads me to believe the Arcus Skeletons have a 9HD which would make sense as to why the turn check of 17 did not work. Only 18 is twice the cleric level and therefore is the one that works.

Does anyone know of a list show all creatures HD?

SECOND TURN ATTEMPT:
(Combat): You roll to see how effective your turn undead is. You roll a 12: you hit foes up to 19 hit dice.
(Combat): You roll for turning damage. You roll a 8: 31 total hit dice of enemies can be turned..
(Combat): you hit Skeleton Arcus with Destroy Undead. (Combat): You killed Skeleton Arcus.

RESULTS: Last of the Level 6 Skelles Destroyed

FIRST TURN ATTEMPT ANALYSIS:
Turn Check: 1d20 + CHA mod = Cleric Level + (0 to 4) Max HD turned
So: 12 [1d20] + 6 [Cha Mod] = 18 (Turn Table = +2)
8 [Cleric Level] + 2 [True Reincarnate] + 1 [Enhancement] +2 [Turn Table] +2 [Sacred Item] +4 [SER Spell] = 19

Therefore;
Creatures up to HD 19 will be affected:

Turning Damage:
Turn Damage Check: 2d6 + Cleric Level + Cha Mod + All Modifiers = MaxHD
So: 8 [2d6] +8 [Cleric Level] +6 [CHA MOD] +2 [True Reincarnate] +1 [Enh I] +2 (Sacred Item] +4 [SER Spell] = 31 MaxHD

Again, 19 Turn Check is good enough to destroy the Skelly as expected.

FINAL:
One of the biggest limitations of turning for outright destruction is the turning table used. Turning would be much more effective if the table was broadened and didn’t top out at +4.

Even at level 8 this cleric is able to hit the max on the table of +4 about 20% of the time. It would be nice if this table would accommodate and reward higher Charisma clerics. For example, an extension of the table to look like the following;

Table: Turning Undead
Turning Check Result Most Powerful Undead Affected (Maximum Hit Dice)
0 or lower Cleric’s level – 4
1–3 Cleric’s level – 3
4–6 Cleric’s level – 2
7–9 Cleric’s level – 1
10–12 Cleric’s level
13–15 Cleric’s level + 1
16–18 Cleric’s level + 2
19–21 Cleric’s level + 3
22–24 Cleric’s level + 4
24–26 Cleric’s level + 5
27–29 Cleric’s level + 6
29–31 Cleric’s level + 7

This would go a long way to helping the cleric perform at the higher level quests. It would not overpower the ability either. Just like a person swinging a vorpal if the cleric rolled a 20 on the turn check, they would be able to maximize the charisma bonus to its full potential. They still might not be able to make the turn but at least it would give a fighting chance. As it sits currently, when a cleric rolls a 20 the Charisma bonus is pretty much meaningless.

As it stands now the Charisma bonus only helps when you roll a junk number. This is the major flaw I see with turning and I hope someday we can “turn” this potentially great cleric ability into something useful.

Cheers and Hope you other clerics Support
And Yes I know Divine Light is Pretty Awesome

[rezo]

Sorry, my "turn Undead" is you hold them and I spin them, lol.

P.S. I do have lvl 18 clr. with a chr. of 30 and I can made the skellys in madstone run from me.

[Orratti]

The problem is no one really wants the undead to run from them they want them to be destroyed. You could actually improve turning undead by nerfing it so either they are destroyed or unaffected by the turn. Devine Light mixed with damaging spells like mass cures end up being the most effective but we already knew that.

[Holioly]

Cha also adds to the number of attempts per rest. I am a turn build first TR and I like my turn ability. I have played a cleric since 2006 but took a small 2 yr break. It used to be really nerfed with no chance of turning in the Orchard. Last life I could turn and destroy the undead there at lvl 19. Not just the skelies in the tombs either. Thats not with the good gear either. They added some good looking lvl 18 gear but its real hard to get.

Seraphim
A trinket the name eludes me at the moment but adds 2 turns a rest and adds 2 lvls and 4 hit dice.

Here is a link for ddowiki and the lvl 18 sets
http://ddowiki.com/page/Unique_items_by_set_bonuses