Bastard Sword REVISION PETITION

[TheDjinnFor]

EDIT: TheDjinnFor, I think your reply proves are missing the point here. There's two prongs to this - one is PnP fidelity. It may not mean as much to you as it does to me, but it is a key reason (to me) for the change. Two: the object is NOT to make bastard swords the new uber. The object is to make them not useless to the vast majority of characters. Of course a great axe fighter should use their great axe; but, if they don't have the right great axe and they have a suitable bastard sword, oughtn't they know how to use it?

I'd say PnP fidelity is a moot point considering how far turbine has diverged from PnP. I'd also disagree that bastard swords aren't still useless to the vast majority of characters given said suggestion. If you want to add more versatility to weapon choice I say add this property to all non-finesse one-handed weapons, like PnP.

This will not make the weapons "better", just get them used more often (is that your goal?).

[LunaCee]

That is much too overpowered, because, situationally, it would make bastard swords overwhelmingly better than other choices for sword & bored or even as one or both weapons used TWF.

And yet in epic DPS is the name of the game and people make a lot of fun of AC builds because they do so little DPS that the fight lasts longer And in general the required amount of AC for a tanker to WORK in epic gimps their damage enough as it is already. Giving those people a way to at least improved their damage *some* is not a bad thing. And in reality the only way to get a player base as a whole to take a look at something widely considered underpowered is to make it a top performer for some situations.

Now think on it this way, its a one hander... therefore the THF feat tree would *not* increase the % of glancing blows or their damage. A barbarian would have their enhancements still work on it, and yes could benefit immensely from having a storm of numbers pop up... And the Paladin could have KotC damage and Divine Sacrifice kick around a group.

In short there is no way the Developer can buff the sword without making it the new best thing since sliced bread for EVERYONE or for SOME and make it worth using. And like I said they are very limited in what they can do without at least SOME whining.

Is that some OMG! OP! HAX! I hear from you because you'd feel your epeen shrink because another melee could get more use out of the sword than maybe your fighter could if you even have one? *yawns* Deal with it. Thats like whining about a godly weapon you pulled and would want to use being RR and you are without any UMD. You either build something that CAN use it or you stick on the AH and make some money off of it.

[Trillea]

Since all humans (myself included) are ugly bastards, give all humans proficiency with it and racial enhancements to go with it!

[xberto]

In my opinion that wouldn't solve anything

We'll my position stands that all weapons do not need to be equal. If a bastard doesnt perform equal to a khopesh then so be it. It creates an opprotunity for those with less resources to pick up some fine bastards for a fraction of what they would pay for a khop. For that reason alone, I see no reason to change the base specs. You loose a small amount of DPS but save HUGE in gold.

And you have every right to disagree but I still think some premier named bastard swords, perhaps some epic versions that outshine their Khopesh brothers, would be a nice incentive for bastard swingers.

[moorewr]

I'd say PnP fidelity is a moot point considering how far turbine has diverged from PnP. I'd also disagree that bastard swords aren't still useless to the vast majority of characters given said suggestion. If you want to add more versatility to weapon choice I say add this property to all non-finesse one-handed weapons, like PnP.

This will not make the weapons "better", just get them used more often (is that your goal?).

Is this a joke? Existing differences with pnp make attempts to fix them moot? People will use bs more even though they won't be better?!

I'm not sure what you were trying to convey here.

[moorewr]

I'm not sure where you pulled "gs epeen" out of my post, but I'm going to ignore it.

Now think on it this way, its a one hander... therefore the THF feat tree would *not* increase the % of glancing blows or their damage.

That wasn't what you said above, but even so glancing blows for a one-hander are over-powered and lack a PnP rationale.

[LunaCee]

However glancing blows don't exist in PnP at all for two handers either and yet here they are. That lacks rationale is rather flimsy. And they are reliant on base damage for how much they do. For a one hander that takes an exotic feat and has a mere x2 multiplier and has no race with racial bonuses it wouldn't be overpowered much. It would be more to say that in certain situations it might be a viable alternative to the OP that is the Khopesh. And yet better still would be NERFING of the Khopesh. However that is very unlikely to happen. Therefore... just buff the blasted bastard sword already.

[moorewr]

However glancing blows don't exist in PnP at all for two handers either and yet here they are. That lacks rationale is rather flimsy. And they are reliant on base damage for how much they do. For a one hander that takes an exotic feat and has a mere x2 multiplier and has no race with racial bonuses it wouldn't be overpowered much. It would be more to say that in certain situations it might be a viable alternative to the OP that is the Khopesh. And yet better still would be NERFING of the Khopesh. However that is very unlikely to happen. Therefore... just buff the blasted bastard sword already.

I see no move afoot to fix (ahem, nerf) the khopesh.. just to let people use the bastard sword two-handed without a feat, per PnP.

[Shahadet]

Ask yourself this: Are you a munchkin or a bastard?

I only dislike Halfling Khopesh users that get in your face about not using a kho' when the sword in each of your hands is clearly as big as they are.

I do find that people are willing to just pass you the bastards they find in chests as well, could be pride could be pity.

[Uska]

cant wield it in two hands in ddo and would be buggy to code it to be done so

[BattleCircle]

I don't really care how they fix it, as long as they fix it... 8 out of 10 weapons I pull are Bastard swords... OooH look, a +5 Silver BS of Greater Evil Outsider Bane.... Oh ***, it's A Bastard Sword...

Heh, I've got a Holy burst silver BS I have been packing around for 2 years or so...

[Mortimar]

One suggestion would be to give the bastard sword a +1 damage bonus when taking the proficiency that stacks with all other bonuses.

Alternatively, it strikes me that the bastard sword is the optimal defensive weapon because of its reach and large blade, yet this is not reflected in the game. I would gather that one could defend themselves better with a bastard sword and shield or two bastard swords than, say, a khopesh or short sword or two handed weapon since you don't have to be so close range or exposed. As a result, provide a defense-related bonus feat from a limited list when picking bastard sword proficiency. For example, the list could include combat expertise, dodge and any of the shield feats. The stipulation would be that when choosing the bonus feat you must meet the prerequisite. Also, if you choose bastard sword proficiency you cannot also have khopesh proficiency and vice versa. This would prevent khopesh users from exploiting the bastard sword bonus feat. So, if a cleric takes bastard sword proficiency they could also take tower shield proficiency as a bonus. Or if a fighter takes it they could also choose dodge or improved shield bash, for example. Personally, I think Paladins should already have tower shields as a standard feat.

It seems to me this would be fairly simple to code without changing the game mechanics or overpowering the bastard sword. I think the original post is a bad suggestion that would seriously gimp the bastard sword even more. Mathematically, 2d4 < 1d10.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Heh, I've got a Holy burst silver BS I have been packing around for 2 years or so...

I've been farming the Sands over the past month on my main looking for a Bloodstone...

Haven't gotten one yet, but it seems every run I pull one or two pretty **** good Bastard Swords.

And in the same time only one Khopesh worth using.

[SteeleTrueheart]

To OP since this is a computer game, a RNG makes it possible to make a weapon do 2d5 damage.

Versatility (i.e can be used 1H or 2H) if this was possible to do in the code, they would have probably done it at the beggining of the game because (as A_D pointed out) this ability is not restricted to BS but can be used on nearly all martial 1H weapons. This is a large change to core code vs changing properties of a weapon which should be easier to do.

My comments on the suggestions so far:

Like:

- Make them 18-20/x2
may make them a little too poweful but it is still slightly less powerful than a khopesh and costs a feat, so I would agree to it.

-Glancing blows
If they not allow the THF feat increase to apply (but allow racial bonuses) and even give them a much smaller proc rate than a THF weapon, then this could be something. More careful thought would have to be put into this though especially since glancing blows are designed to help increase THF vs TWF and if you could then TWF BS with glancing blows.... well you could imagine.

-Human Racial proficiency
I have always liked this suggestion (it has been suggested many times before) the most versatile race to be given a versatile weapon as a racial proficiency with appropriate enhancements. I like! But since my first and favourite character is a Human Paladin with BS proficiency I can not claim to be unbiased. The only prob is that it would then be a weapon solely for humans and all races would have to have a weapon (poor little throwing weapon halflings)

Do Not Like:

-Fighter enhancements grant benefit to BS.
Don't really like class restrictions on particular weapon types. Classes of weapons (2H or light weapons) sure.

-A base damage increase
Would not make Bastard Swords more attractive. Few people know that a Greensteel BS does 2d8 base damage. Still not many people use them though.

[Mortimar]

I like your suggestion for 2d5 and I also like the human proficiency idea since human enhancements and racial benefits are pretty bad. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment since I like clerics and bastard swords, fully realizing that clerics and bastard swords are suboptimal compared to FvS and khopesh.

[Luis_Velderve]

One suggestion would be to give the bastard sword a +1 damage bonus when taking the proficiency that stacks with all other bonuses.

Alternatively, it strikes me that the bastard sword is the optimal defensive weapon because of its reach and large blade, yet this is not reflected in the game. I would gather that one could defend themselves better with a bastard sword and shield or two bastard swords than, say, a khopesh or short sword or two handed weapon since you don't have to be so close range or exposed. As a result, provide a defense-related bonus feat from a limited list when picking bastard sword proficiency. For example, the list could include combat expertise, dodge and any of the shield feats. The stipulation would be that when choosing the bonus feat you must meet the prerequisite. Also, if you choose bastard sword proficiency you cannot also have khopesh proficiency and vice versa. This would prevent khopesh users from exploiting the bastard sword bonus feat. So, if a cleric takes bastard sword proficiency they could also take tower shield proficiency as a bonus. Or if a fighter takes it they could also choose dodge or improved shield bash, for example. Personally, I think Paladins should already have tower shields as a standard feat.

It seems to me this would be fairly simple to code without changing the game mechanics or overpowering the bastard sword. I think the original post is a bad suggestion that would seriously gimp the bastard sword even more. Mathematically, 2d4 < 1d10.

Average or a 1d10 is 5 and 2d4 is 4 however 2d4 min is 2 and 1d10 is 1.

[moorewr]

If there really is some reason why it can't be coded properly - which I doubt, rather it just hasn't been worth fixing to them - then these ideas are fine, with one exception.

The crit range is over-powered, however.. that would make it into a high damage slashing rapier. See the example of Barbarian Critical Rage... or imagine a Kensei III with improved crit who has a crit range of 14-20 with a BS.

[SteeleTrueheart]

If there really is some reason why it can't be coded properly - which I doubt, rather it just hasn't been worth fixing to them - then these ideas are fine, with one exception.

The crit range is over-powered, however.. that would make it into a high damage slashing rapier. See the example of Barbarian Critical Rage... or imagine a Kensei III with improved crit who has a crit range of 14-20 with a BS.

No it would make it into a higher base damage scimitar with a cost of 1 Feat. Reasonable and still less than khopesh in anything other than certain optimal builds.

[gavagai]

- Make them 18-20/x2
may make them a little too poweful but it is still slightly less powerful than a khopesh and costs a feat, so I would agree to it.

I think this is a nice way to give Bastard Swords a niche, but would face stiff opposition. It allows humans to take a feat that offers a moderately superior Scimitar. They could be useful for human DPS rogues (who favor crit frequency over crit damage b/c RadII) and Paladins (hello Smites and Sacrifices!). TWF Barbs and Fighters would probably stick to kopeshes, because they are numerically superior.

But of course for those that know PnP, twisting the B-Sword's threat range will seem odious. And it could be seen as yet another step towards munchkinizing everything. I'd personally reduce damage to 2d4 18-20/x2 in this scenario to increase their minimum damage and decrease the max, so they are more in line with Elves with Scim enhancements.

-Glancing blows
If they not allow the THF feat increase to apply (but allow racial bonuses) and even give them a much smaller proc rate than a THF weapon, then this could be something. More careful thought would have to be put into this though especially since glancing blows are designed to help increase THF vs TWF and if you could then TWF BS with glancing blows.... well you could imagine.

I really like this idea, but worry that it'll be too difficult to implement. [i.e. creating a class of weapons that offers glancing blows but which isn't affected by THF.]

Human Racial proficiency

This is how I would "fix" it, if I were a time-strapped Dev looking at everything: make the bastard sword "free" for humans with the martial weapons proficiency. Yep, the same mechanic as with Dwarves and Dwarven Axes. So no freebies to bards, rogues, or clerics. If the feat is free, there's no need to further munchkinize it or rebalance it.

This undoes the problem: spending a feat on a not-very-special weapon. Each of the exotics offers something unique: kopesh -- insane DPS potential; Repeater -- insane RoF; kama & shuriken -- monk specialty weapons (monks get free though); great crossbow -- huge crit range (18-20) on a weapon that fires about as fast as a bow.

[Luis_Velderve]

I reconsider the 2d4 idea because it will affect those few BS users so lets see if this is the common ground for those that care about the BASTARD

Scimitar 1d6 18-20x2
Bastard 1D10 18-20x2
Khopesh 1d8 19-20x3

A SWORD THAT CAN BE USED OH or TH

Falchion 2d4 18-20 x2
Bastard 1d12(or 3d4) 18-20 x2
G.Sword 2d6 19-20x2

Those added 2 points of damage from 1d10 to 1d12 will reflect "offhand" use


For your review