Bastard Sword REVISION PETITION

[Luis_Velderve]

they could put a laser scope on it.

That may help with those not repeating crossbows LOL!

[Luis_Velderve]

I think the real problem is that khopesh got overly amped up for an exotic weapon. That is what really makes the basty useless, because if you have the extra feat, you would be a fool not to grab kho.

What if they turn the Bastard into a martial weapon and Why is considered exotic at all?

[sammehmurph]

I think the real problem is that khopesh got overly amped up for an exotic weapon. That is what really makes the basty useless, because if you have the extra feat, you would be a fool not to grab kho.

Then call me a fool, I know it's not as optimal as a khopesh, but it looks 10 times cooler, and it fits my RP style.

[sammehmurph]

What if they turn the Bastard into a martial weapon and Why is considered exotic at all?

Not everyone can dual wield a sword that requires 1 and a 1/2 hands.

[Luis_Velderve]

It doesn't help if you simply calculate the base damage without considering enchantment and high strength damage.

The reason why the Bastard Sword fails is because it is an exotic weapon that has a x2 crit multiplier and a 10% chance to crit.

For that feat, you can get an exotic weapon that has a x3 crit multiplier and a 10% chance to crit.

If you up the crit multiplier to x3 and leave the 10% threat, it's overpowered. If you extend the range to 18-20 and leave it at x2... well, its an interesting idea...

IMO, they should just take Bastard sword off the exotic list. It wouldn't hurt the popularity of longswords any more than scimitars and kopeshes.

No matter if I add enchantment and high strength damage 2d4 will be always better than 1d8 and 2d4 will have a higher minimum than a 1d10

GS will be better with 2d6 against 1d12
Falchion will have better range
Real deal will be the capability to use it OH or 2H

[gavagai]

Real deal will be the capability to use it OH or 2H

That would be useful and fun mechanic. But while it would add a level of richness and self-sufficiency, in video-game land I don't think many would spend a feats to carry 1 Bastard sword instead of a feat to carry a Kopesh and Greatsword. Now if we had realistic weightload and inventory management issues...

Although after I wrote the last post, I had the thought, "1d10 or 2d4, 18-20/x2... now that would actually justify using the feat for some builds without making it the ugly OP stepchild of the Kopesh." Paladins with bastard swords, for instance, would be quite nice.

But I digress...

[Luis_Velderve]

That would be useful and fun mechanic. But while it would add a level of richness and self-sufficiency, in video-game land I don't think many would spend a feats to carry 1 Bastard sword instead of a feat to carry a Kopesh and Greatsword. Now if we had realistic weightload and inventory management issues...

Although after I wrote the last post, I had the thought, "1d10 or 2d4, 18-20/x2... now that would actually justify using the feat for some builds without making it the ugly OP stepchild of the Kopesh." Paladins with bastard swords, for instance, would be quite nice.

But I digress...

2d4, 18-20/x2 OH
1d10 18-20/x2 TH

Is this attractive to justify a FEAT use? For your feedback

[TheDjinnFor]

How to fix Bastard Sword

1. Allow some weapons to be used with two-handed grip to gain 1.5x strength and 2x PA damage. This applies to bastard, longsword, dwarf axe, battleaxe, scimitar, heavy mace, morningstar, club, and warhammer.

2. When used with a two-hand grip, proficiency in greatsword also suffices for bastard sword. (The same goes for greataxe and dwarf axe)

3. The fighter enhancements which apply specifically to bastard swords give higher bonuses than for other one-hand weapons.

1. How would giving one-handed weapons 2H properties when wielded alone improve them when one can simply wield the more powerful 2H weapon?

2. How would giving players free proficiencies to inferior weapons be considered an improvement to the weapons?

3. How would making bastard swords more powerful for fighters only be anything more than a game design cop out?

Come on, man. Those suggestions just hide the real issue here: that bastard swords suck versus 2-handers and suck versus 1-handers.

Also:

2d4, 18-20/x2 TH
1d10 18-20/x2 OH

Is this attractive to justify a FEAT use? For your feedback

I'm pretty sure you meant this.

I'm wondering how 1d10 19-20/x3 would stack up if the weapon was a 2H weapon only. Although now with all the bonuses 2H gets nowadays I would imagine it to be overpowered. It would definitely outdate Greataxe 1d12 20/x3 and Greatsword 2d6 19-20/x2 for damage, but on the candidates most likely to use it (frenzied barbs) it'd cost them another feat on an already feat-stretched build.

[Angelus_dead]

Question: How would giving one-handed weapons 2H properties when wielded alone improve them when one can simply wield the more powerful 2H weapon?

That question makes an invalid assumption: that someone who finds a +3 Holy Burst Silver Bastard Sword of Righteousness can "simply" transform it into a Greatsword with the same effects. Once you realize that is not the case, it should be clear that Bastard Sword weapons would be more useful if people could wield them two-handed without spending a feat.

In addition, it is important to remember that the best part about two-handed weapons is the multipliers to bonus damage, not the base damage of the item itself.

Question: How would making bastard swords more powerful for fighters only be anything more than a game design cop out?

Once again, that is an invalid question because there were also suggestions that applied to all characters. As to why giving some enhancements to just fighters:
1. Because Fighters are the only class that has per-weapon enhancements.
2. Because Fighters at level 18 get an enhancement biased towards khopesh.
3. Because Fighters are the characters who can most reasonably drop a feat on Bastard proficiency.

Come on, man. Those suggestions just hide the real issue here: that bastard swords suck versus 2-handers and suck versus 1-handers.

Nope. They address that problem by causing Bastard swords to BE a two-hander, when desired.

You are apparently dissatisfied because the suggestions are not enough to make Bastard Sword competitive with a khopesh. But that is not the goal, and to do so would be untrue to the source material. Keep in mind: In D&D 3e it dumb to spend a feat on Bastard Sword. The goal is not to make the Bastard Sword feat attractive, but to make Bastard Sword items useful.

[TheDjinnFor]

That question makes an invalid assumption: that someone who finds a +3 Holy Burst Silver Bastard Sword of Righteousness can "simply" transform it into a Greatsword with the same effects. Once you realize that is not the case, it should be clear that Bastard Sword weapons would be more useful if people could wield them two-handed without spending a feat.

On the contrary, you're assuming I didn't consider that. I'm sure anyone specced for greataxes (dwarf enhancements and all) would immediately switch to a +3 HB Silver Bastard Sword of Righteousness if it was any kind of improvement. I hardly see, however, how making the Bastard Sword a subpar alternative is going to get someone to craft more Min II bastard swords. You'd achieve a similar effect by removing bastard swords from the game and increasing the drop rate on greataxes. Making it a less bad last resort, I think, is not an 'improvement', but rather, a deflection of the issue.

In addition, it is important to remember that the best part about two-handed weapons is the multipliers to bonus damage, not the base damage of the item itself.

Right, but assuming the same build, a bastard sword with 2H properties will still do less damage than a greatsword, and with 1H properties will still do less damage than a khopesh.

Once again, that is an invalid question because there were also suggestions that applied to all characters.

But I'm referring to your specific suggestion, not anybody elses nor any other suggestion you made.

1. Because Fighters are the only class that has per-weapon enhancements.

That justifies giving bigger bonuses to Bastard Swords than any other weapon? But maybe you're only justifying why fighters get this special treatment.

2. Because Fighters at level 18 get an enhancement biased towards khopesh.

Right, the goal is to add enhancements that aren't cop outs. Increasing threat ranges affects a lot of weapons in different ways, the biggest of which is the khopesh. Increasing bastard sword damages increases bastard sword damage because bastard swords suck, and that's a clear-cut cop out. We can't make the bastard sword inherently taste good so we have to force it down the players throats to get them to eat it.

3. Because Fighters are the characters who can most reasonably drop a feat on Bastard proficiency.

So, make the feat worth taking rather than pigeonholing fighters into taking it.

Nope. They address that problem by causing Bastard swords to BE a two-hander, when desired.

How many players would actually care? How many builds want to fill 2H and 2W roles? How many take both strains of feats, equip enhancements for both? None, really. The versatility-issue is non-existent.

You are apparently dissatisfied because the suggestions are not enough to make Bastard Sword competitive with a khopesh. But that is not the goal, and to do so would be untrue to the source material. Keep in mind: In D&D 3e it dumb to spend a feat on Bastard Sword. The goal is not to make the Bastard Sword feat attractive, but to make Bastard Sword items useful.

I'm dissatisfied because you've only deflected the real issue. The stated goal was to balance bastard swords (or rather, not let them be 'underpowered', and/or make the feat useful to take), i.e. make them a competitive alternative (that's what I'd consider 'balance'). Your suggesting to make it suck less, which is probably a waste of developer time, and still doesn't make the feat worth taking unless you're pigeonholed into it.

Answers in red.

[moorewr]

I'd certainly like to see bastard swords treated like PnP. You wouldn't need any new stances or toggles (just some new back-end code).. if the off hand was empty, the game would use the correct 2H figures, 2H sword proficiency and apply the THF feats.

It's been pointed out many times that the PnP khopesh has an x2 crit range.. essentially it is an exotic long sword with a suggestion that it shouldd provide a bonus to tactics (at least trip). I'd be in favor of fixing it, but frankly the fix is not worth the anguish it would cause khopesh users.

EDIT: TheDjinnFor, I think your reply proves are missing the point here. There's two prongs to this - one is PnP fidelity. It may not mean as much to you as it does to me, but it is a key reason (to me) for the change. Two: the object is NOT to make bastard swords the new uber. The object is to make them not useless to the vast majority of characters. Of course a great axe fighter should use their great axe; but, if they don't have the right great axe and they have a suitable bastard sword, oughtn't they know how to use it?

EDIT bis: bah, still can't pos rep you again, A_D.

[Luis_Velderve]

I'd certainly like to see bastard swords treated like PnP. You wouldn't need any new stances or toggles (just some new back-end code).. if the off hand was empty, the game would use the correct 2H figures, 2H sword proficiency and apply the THF feats.

It's been pointed out many times that the PnP khopesh has an x2 crit range.. essentially it is an exotic long sword with a suggestion that it shouldd provide a bonus to tactics (at least trip). I'd be in favor of fixing it, but frankly the fix is not worth the anguish it would cause khopesh users.

EDIT: TheDjinnFor, I think your reply proves are missing the point here. There's two prongs to this - one is PnP fidelity. It may not mean as much to you as it does to me, but it is a key reason (to me) for the change. Two: the object is NOT to make bastard swords the new uber. The object is to make them not useless to the vast majority of characters. Of course a great axe fighter should use their great axe; but, if they don't have the right great axe and they have a suitable bastard sword, oughtn't they know how to use it?

EDIT bis: bah, still can't pos rep you again, A_D.

Fixing the khopesh will cause me problems but Bastard needs some love!

[moorewr]

Fixing the khopesh will cause me problems but Bastard needs some love!

Agreed - didn't mean to imply I was linking the two problems.

[Luis_Velderve]

Answers in red.

"How many players would actually care? How many builds want to fill 2H and 2W roles? How many take both strains of feats, equip enhancements for both? None, really. The versatility-issue is non-existent"

I would like to see what will happen if Bastard can be used as a OH and 2h weapon. I bet there will be few 2h and 2w users around!

[LunaCee]

Well, there is only so much the developers can do without something breaking and having everyone raise the roof in a firestorm of angry posting.

My personal suggestion would be to have Bastard Swords because of their size have the perk of being the one single handed weapon that can trigger glancing blows. Is that better than an x3 critical? Depends on what kind of character is using the sword. I'd imagine that a barbarian TWF adding 6d6 vicious on glancing blows would sit up and take a serious look, I'd imagine that paladin TWF would be highly interested in being able to punch Divine Sacrifice and see a wave of +9d6 light damage pop over a few extra mobs heads.

Still wouldn't be interesting to fighters and rangers as much, but that is fine. Choices and having certain weapons do better in the hands of others is all about variety. Variety is good.

[moorewr]

My personal suggestion would be to have Bastard Swords because of their size have the perk of being the one single handed weapon that can trigger glancing blows. Is that better than an x3 critical?

That is much too overpowered, because, situationally, it would make bastard swords overwhelmingly better than other choices for sword & bored or even as one or both weapons used TWF.

[xberto]

I'd like to know how much DPS you loose swinging a Bastard vs Khopesh. Are we talking about a 10, 20, 30% DPS loss?

I don't think all the weapons need to be equal. The base specs on the sword should remain the same. The bastard sword is a good "poor mans" weapon and can be switched to Khopesh with a single feat swap.

I think any change is perception about the bastard will be the result of a named weapon. Make a named Bastard sword into the 1-handed equivalant of the Sword of Shadows and the bastard sword feat will become the one to take.

[xberto]

Another thought that comes to mind...maybe the half-orc will have bastard sword enhancments. Not sure if there is anything in D&D lore that would warrant this.

[moorewr]

I'd like to know how much DPS you loose swinging a Bastard vs Khopesh. Are we talking about a 10, 20, 30% DPS loss?

I don't think all the weapons need to be equal. The base specs on the sword should remain the same. The bastard sword is a good "poor mans" weapon and can be switched to Khopesh with a single feat swap.

I think any change is perception about the bastard will be the result of a named weapon. Make a named Bastard sword into the 1-handed equivalant of the Sword of Shadows and the bastard sword feat will become the one to take.

In my opinion that wouldn't solve anything; do people build quarterstaff characters in expectation of giving them a Breeze or Rahl's? No, nor do they build them for a given greensteel staff, and greensteel is better than any named item, including the Sword of Shadows.

It is a mistake to try to compare bastard swords and khopeshes at all, except in the generic game balance sense.

Another thought that comes to mind...maybe the half-orc will have bastard sword enhancments. Not sure if there is anything in D&D lore that would warrant this.

Nope.

[Horrorscope]

I think it lives up to its name, on itself.