Swashbuckler Prestige Workgroup

[Luis_Velderve]

Hello:

I would like DDO to consider a Swashbuckler prestige class for fighter and ROGUE.A Swashbuckler is the real finesse fighter, all wits and style. I think that doing this prestige makes sense since there is plenty of builds that are based in rapier and Weapon Finesse.

I want to open this to the forum to attract attention to Turbine to this class and share views about the Swashbuckler.

Several things that a Swashbuckler should or may have are:

1) Fighter and ROGUE skill access (Haggling, Tumble, BLUFF from ROGUE and Intimidate and Jump from Fighter)
2) +1 to AC with any armor but Heavy Armor
3) +1 to hit and damage to any foe using heavy armor **??
4)+1 to hit and damage using piercing weapons
5) A new Feat :
Single Weapon Style

+1 to hit and damage and +1 to AC while only using one single handed weapon with no shield (one rapier only , one dagger only, one mace etc..)

4) Another new Feat:
Single Weapon Style II

+2 to hit and damage and +2 to AC while only using one single handed weapon with no shield (one rapier only , one dagger only, one mace etc..)

6) Bonus to Reflex Saves

7)Attacks with effects like Stun, paralysis, slow burst, strength sapping, wreaking, enfeeblement etc.

8)Slaying in a natural 20 with any piercing weapon capstone.

You may become a Swashbuckler with two weapon style and weapon and shield style too but i do not see a THF as a Swashbuckler.

This is a Brainstorm comments are welcome.

[Goldeneye]

Sounds like a fun prestige! A fighter that thinks it's a rogue!

[TreknaQudane]

It looks like you're mixing Duelist and Swashbuckler here...

One is a Prestige Class the other is a Base Class.

[gavagai]

As a PrE, it would look pretty similar to Kensai. +1 hit and damage, with a crit threat increase at higher level. The second tier would substitute Power Surge for something like INT damage to weapons. Maybe a few Dodge AC boosts here and there. But nothing completely different.

As a new class implemented along the lines of the NWN2 Swashbuckler, it would be an awesome splash for some specialized builds. With Insightful Strike at level 3, it could give mechanic rogues and battle-mages some much needed oomph -- but for a hefty 3 level sacrifice.

But creating a whole new class oriented around two non-existent areas of DDO combat (finesse/intelligence DPS and passive defenses like parry) doesn't sound like it would have any clear purpose in DDO. Even the high level skills like Wounding and Weakening critical are less important, since the nerf to stat damagers.

I /sign introducing "Swashbuckler"-like feats such as Insight Strike!

[Luis_Velderve]

Sounds like a fun prestige! A fighter that thinks it's a rogue!

That is the spirit of the swashbuckler. Some think that if should have move silently (sneak) and others dont, What do u think?

[Luis_Velderve]

It looks like you're mixing Duelist and Swashbuckler here...

One is a Prestige Class the other is a Base Class.

I am a 2nd edition guy so you may be right indeed please can u clarify. I used fighter handbook and some other sources like Dungeons Magazine.

Please give us your input

[Luis_Velderve]

As a PrE, it would look pretty similar to Kensai. +1 hit and damage, with a crit threat increase at higher level. The second tier would substitute Power Surge for something like INT damage to weapons. Maybe a few Dodge AC boosts here and there. But nothing completely different.

As a new class implemented along the lines of the NWN2 Swashbuckler, it would be an awesome splash for some specialized builds. With Insightful Strike at level 3, it could give mechanic rogues and battle-mages some much needed oomph -- but for a hefty 3 level sacrifice.

But creating a whole new class oriented around two non-existent areas of DDO combat (finesse/intelligence DPS and passive defenses like parry) doesn't sound like it would have any clear purpose in DDO. Even the high level skills like Wounding and Weakening critical are less important, since the nerf to stat damagers.

I /sign introducing "Swashbuckler"-like feats such as Insight Strike!

Tell me about Insightful Strike

[Irinis]

Buffing with rouge? Buffing is for your nails, rouge for your cheeks and possibly lips and eyes depending whether it's a powder or a stick. Get it right!

Oh BLUFF with rouge... that makes even less sense.

[gavagai]

Tell me about Insightful Strike

Heh, I'll let the PnP gurus answer the technical specifics of Insightful Strike. (I haven't PnP'd since AD&D, so my knowledge base is pretty light.)

But from what I see on 3.5 wikis and in NWN2, Swashbucklers get Insightful Strike at level 3, which allows them to add their Intelligence to their damage as precision style damage. That means:

a) INT damage would stack with STR damage; but
b) INT damage would be blocked by fortification, just like crit damage and sneak attack damage.

Something like insightful strike is needed because, with HP inflation in DDO, no melee class that "finesses" is going to be effective unless it has a way of doing DPS. A rogue has Sneak attack damage of 10d6+12; but what would a Swashbuckler have? Maybe a year or two ago a "stat damaging finesse warrior" would be viable, but not today. INT damage (stacking with STR damage) could be a new way to create high DPS options.

I don't think Insightful Strike was a stand-alone feat in PnP, so if implemented it would have to have pretty stiff requirements.

Something like:
-- Base INT 15 or 17
-- Weapon Finesse or Combat Expertise
-- +4 BAB

Anyway, just a thought I've had. Especially as a way of making high-Int rogues more playable.

[Ode1st]

Vorpal doesn't really make sense for piercing weapons. Pretty hard to chop someone's head off my poking at it :P.

[Luis_Velderve]

Buffing with rouge? Buffing is for your nails, rouge for your cheeks and possibly lips and eyes depending whether it's a powder or a stick. Get it right!

Oh BLUFF with rouge... that makes even less sense.

thks edited and about BLUFF. Is it a ROGUE skill isn't it?

[Luis_Velderve]

Vorpal doesn't really make sense for piercing weapons. Pretty hard to chop someone's head off my poking at it :P.

Slaying then? I read that vorpal effect is cutting the silver cord from the astral plane. Granted

[TreknaQudane]

I am a 2nd edition guy so you may be right indeed please can u clarify. I used fighter handbook and some other sources like Dungeons Magazine.

Please give us your input

Only doing the first Five levels of each...

Swashbuckler (Base Class)

Alignment: Any
Race: Any
Hit Die: d10
Proficiencies: Light Armor, Simple and Martial Weaponry
Skill Points: 4
Skills: Climb, Jump, Swim, Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble,
         Use Rope, Craft(X), Profession(X), Sense Motive, Bluff, Diplomacy.

Level          BAB          Saves          Abilities
1               1              2/0/0           Feat: Weapon Finesse
2               2              3/0/0           Grace +1
3               3              3/1/1           Insightful Strike
4               4              4/1/1           -
5               5              4/1/1           Dodge Bonus +1  

Grace: +X Competence bonus to Reflex, 
Dodge Bonus works against one Target only. 
Insightful Strike, When using a weapon that qualifies for Weapon Finesse you may
                       add your INT modifier to your STR mod when determining 
                       damage. Does not work on creatures immune to criticals.

Duelist (Prestige Class)

Prerequisites:
          BAB: 6
          Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse
          Skills: Perform 3, Tumble 5
Hit Die: d10
Proficiencies: Simple and Martial Weapons
Skill Points: 4
Skills: Jump, Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble, Listen, Sense Motive, 
         Spot, Bluff, Perform

Level          BAB          Saves          Abilities
1               1              0/2/0          Canny Defense
2               2              0/3/0          Improved Reaction +2
3               3              1/3/1          Enhanced Mobility
4               4              1/4/1          Grace
5               5              1/4/1          Precise Strike +1d6

Canny Defence: When unarmored not using a shield a Duelist can 
                      add 1 point of their Int Mod per Duelist level to AC 
                      while wielding a melee weapon. Lost when flat footed
Improved Reaction: Initiative +X
Enhanced Mobiliy: +4 AC versus Attacks of opportunity caused when
                         moving out of a threatened square
Grace: +2 competence bonus on all Reflex saves when unarmored and
          not using a shield.
Precise Strike: Only works when using one weapon and no shield.

[ddoplayer064]

Rogue! For the love of all that's holy it's spelled ROGUE!
<goes off and mumbles incoherently>

[Angelus_dead]

I think that doing this prestige makes sense since there is plenty of builds that are based in rapier and Weapon Finesse.

It would be cool to see something based on the style of Swashbuckler/Duelist added to DDO: a light armored character wielding a single one-handed weapon who nonetheless is viable in battle.

However, there is a major problem: Before adding a specialty of that type, S&B combat would have to be fixed. The closest comparison to a swashbuckler would be a warrior with sword and shield; but that more-fundamental kind of character doesn't work right in DDO yet.

To get good results, you'd have to start by fixing S&B combat, then building Swashbuckler to be a reasonable variation which drops the shield. It would be a mistake to create an effective Swashbuckler option without first getting SB to work.

[Luis_Velderve]

Rogue! For the love of all that's holy it's spelled ROGUE!
<goes off and mumbles incoherently>

Typo thks

[Luis_Velderve]

Only doing the first Five levels of each...

Swashbuckler (Base Class)

Alignment: Any
Race: Any
Hit Die: d10
Proficiencies: Light Armor, Simple and Martial Weaponry
Skill Points: 4
Skills: Climb, Jump, Swim, Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble,
         Use Rope, Craft(X), Profession(X), Sense Motive, Bluff, Diplomacy.

Level          BAB          Saves          Abilities
1               1              2/0/0           Feat: Weapon Finesse
2               2              3/0/0           Grace +1
3               3              3/1/1           Insightful Strike
4               4              4/1/1           -
5               5              4/1/1           Dodge Bonus +1  

Grace: +X Competence bonus to Reflex, 
Dodge Bonus works against one Target only. 
Insightful Strike, When using a weapon that qualifies for Weapon Finesse you may
                       add your INT modifier to your STR mod when determining 
                       damage. Does not work on creatures immune to criticals.

Duelist (Prestige Class)

Prerequisites:
          BAB: 6
          Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse
          Skills: Perform 3, Tumble 5
Hit Die: d10
Proficiencies: Simple and Martial Weapons
Skill Points: 4
Skills: Jump, Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble, Listen, Sense Motive, 
         Spot, Bluff, Perform

Level          BAB          Saves          Abilities
1               1              0/2/0          Canny Defense
2               2              0/3/0          Improved Reaction +2
3               3              1/3/1          Enhanced Mobility
4               4              1/4/1          Grace
5               5              1/4/1          Precise Strike +1d6

Canny Defence: When unarmored not using a shield a Duelist can 
                      add 1 point of their Int Mod per Duelist level to AC 
                      while wielding a melee weapon. Lost when flat footed
Improved Reaction: Initiative +X
Enhanced Mobiliy: +4 AC versus Attacks of opportunity caused when
                         moving out of a threatened square
Grace: +2 competence bonus on all Reflex saves when unarmored and
          not using a shield.
Precise Strike: Only works when using one weapon and no shield.

Some references for your consideration

http://pandius.com/engarde.html
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=89107
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Swashbu...acter_Build%29
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/MSRD:Sw...er_%28Class%29
http://www.angelfire.com/la/larryadnd/Swashbuckler.html

and always controversial PANACHE

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...2526#340282526

[Luis_Velderve]

Only doing the first Five levels of each...

Swashbuckler (Base Class)

Alignment: Any
Race: Any
Hit Die: d10
Proficiencies: Light Armor, Simple and Martial Weaponry
Skill Points: 4
Skills: Climb, Jump, Swim, Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble,
         Use Rope, Craft(X), Profession(X), Sense Motive, Bluff, Diplomacy.

Level          BAB          Saves          Abilities
1               1              2/0/0           Feat: Weapon Finesse
2               2              3/0/0           Grace +1
3               3              3/1/1           Insightful Strike
4               4              4/1/1           -
5               5              4/1/1           Dodge Bonus +1  

Grace: +X Competence bonus to Reflex, 
Dodge Bonus works against one Target only. 
Insightful Strike, When using a weapon that qualifies for Weapon Finesse you may
                       add your INT modifier to your STR mod when determining 
                       damage. Does not work on creatures immune to criticals.

Duelist (Prestige Class)

Prerequisites:
          BAB: 6
          Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse
          Skills: Perform 3, Tumble 5
Hit Die: d10
Proficiencies: Simple and Martial Weapons
Skill Points: 4
Skills: Jump, Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble, Listen, Sense Motive, 
         Spot, Bluff, Perform

Level          BAB          Saves          Abilities
1               1              0/2/0          Canny Defense
2               2              0/3/0          Improved Reaction +2
3               3              1/3/1          Enhanced Mobility
4               4              1/4/1          Grace
5               5              1/4/1          Precise Strike +1d6

Canny Defence: When unarmored not using a shield a Duelist can 
                      add 1 point of their Int Mod per Duelist level to AC 
                      while wielding a melee weapon. Lost when flat footed
Improved Reaction: Initiative +X
Enhanced Mobiliy: +4 AC versus Attacks of opportunity caused when
                         moving out of a threatened square
Grace: +2 competence bonus on all Reflex saves when unarmored and
          not using a shield.
Precise Strike: Only works when using one weapon and no shield.

There are several abilities ans skills that are not present now in DDO. Should those be enhancements? How can we work the fact that there are no attacks of opportunity here at all? I think that a mix of you duelist and Swashbuckler may be doable for a prestige

[Luis_Velderve]

Heh, I'll let the PnP gurus answer the technical specifics of Insightful Strike. (I haven't PnP'd since AD&D, so my knowledge base is pretty light.)

But from what I see on 3.5 wikis and in NWN2, Swashbucklers get Insightful Strike at level 3, which allows them to add their Intelligence to their damage as precision style damage. That means:

a) INT damage would stack with STR damage; but
b) INT damage would be blocked by fortification, just like crit damage and sneak attack damage.

Something like insightful strike is needed because, with HP inflation in DDO, no melee class that "finesses" is going to be effective unless it has a way of doing DPS. A rogue has Sneak attack damage of 10d6+12; but what would a Swashbuckler have? Maybe a year or two ago a "stat damaging finesse warrior" would be viable, but not today. INT damage (stacking with STR damage) could be a new way to create high DPS options.

I don't think Insightful Strike was a stand-alone feat in PnP, so if implemented it would have to have pretty stiff requirements.

Something like:
-- Base INT 15 or 17
-- Weapon Finesse or Combat Expertise
-- +4 BAB

Anyway, just a thought I've had. Especially as a way of making high-Int rogues more playable.

Interesting, 1 point over CE requirement should be enough as a requirement for Insightful Strike. That may give stats focus in this order, INT, DEX, CON, CHA, SRT and WIS.

[Rusty_Can]

I would like DDO to consider a Swashbuckler prestige class for fighter and ROGUE.A Swashbuckler is the real finesse fighter, all wits and style. I think that doing this prestige makes sense since there is plenty of builds that are based in rapier and Weapon Finesse.

Exactly: enough of them. Instead, can we have some decent STR-based rogue PrE?

Vorpal doesn't really make sense for piercing weapons. Pretty hard to chop someone's head off my poking at it :P.

Uhm... actually, Assassin III already does that .....