Please, new wizards...

[Surcus1]

..take Toughness. Spend some AP on Toughness-enhancements. Wear False life-items. Wear fortification. Dont start with minimum con.

After yet another encounter with a (level 8 with 44 hp this time) wizard dying constantly(who also bragged how his 15th-level sorc with 96 hp had no problems doing anything), I feel this need to be adressed some.
There is absolutely no excuse to not have these items/feats/enhancements, and dont blame the tank when you die ten times each quest.

[Doxmaster]

He shouldn't be hit in the first place. An extra 30 hp isn't gonna do much when the wizard has no AC and no DR to help things out.

(Just my opinion)
The way I see it, a good caster-wizard knows to not get hit, whether he/she 10 hp or a thousand. If the wizards you roll with are getting hit, they must suck something mighty fierce.

(A lot less opinion)
Try looking for some WF wizzys: they will self heal, and to get a WF, one much at least know a little about the game.

(Opinion again)
Toughness is useless on a wizard, unless he planned to take hits from the beginning or is going for PM[Rip on PM later everyone. This is about all of us wizards right now]. Some do. Some don't.

(Fact)
Everyone runs quest differently. On my low hp wizard, I rarely die; I know what to and not to do. When I do die, it's planned and I have already asked the cleric for a res after a certain amount of time, told the shields not to follow me and set things up to get the most from my death. Ask anyone I roll with if I drop dead constantly, because I aggro'd everything, but couldn't escape.

If you have death problems, talk to the player. If he is an idiot, kick him/get a new group. No need for anyone to gimp their build, just to die the same exact way, slightly slower.

(Reiteration/TLDR)
Toughness is useless, everything depends on how you play, work around idiots.

Simple.

[IgorUnchained]

My Wiz gets hit a lot, but as a WF he can self heal.

I cant imagine being this squishy and not being able to heal myself. Id have to make a lot of healer friends.

[Vordax]

He shouldn't be hit in the first place. An extra 30 hp isn't gonna do much when the wizard has no AC and no DR to help things out.

This is untrue. A wizard with 44hp getting hit for 60 is dead, a wizard with 74hp is still living. You cannot avoid all damage, it is going to happen, HP are your buffer between life and death its best to maximize this as much as is reasonable.

Vordax

[Goldeneye]

You can be the fastest, more pro caster in the game, and never ever get hit.
However, with low CON, and no toughness, the random orthon that teleported away could smash your skull in.

HITPOINTS ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT STAT

1. a dead wizard does no one any good
2. a wizard running for his life doesn't do any good
3. a wizard critically low on hp after 1 hit doesn't do any good

I agree 200% with the OP. All casters must have a Toughness Feat!

[Memnir]

(Opinion again)
Toughness is useless on a wizard

(Reiteration/TLDR)
Toughness is useless

I will take the high road here, and just say that I do no share your opinion in any way, shape, or form.

[Xaearth]

He shouldn't be hit in the first place. An extra 30 hp isn't gonna do much when the wizard has no AC and no DR to help things out.

I was going to go over your points, but as I was re-reading to comment, I saw this, facepalmed, and typed this reply instead.

Stoneskin is only expensive if you let it be.

[Beld]

you don't really use DEX, same with WIS for the most part and CHA....oh, and mostly STR as well (maybe a 10 or so to avoid the one shot ray of enfeeblement helplessness).

BUT, you do need HP, which equates to CON, CON, CON and oh yeah CON!!!

Also, with the extra feats you get as a wizard to take the meta's or spell pen, there is no reason not to spend a feat and 3 AP on the extra HP as well.....

Dying on purpose.......really ??? I mean, if you are sacrificing yourself to pull aggro away from a shrine or the group while they recover from a wipe, maybe....other than that, GET SOME HP so you can handle ANY aggro.

I have a WF wizard, a drow wizard and a halfling sorc.....ALL HAVE MORE HP THAN YOUR 15 SORC at much lower levels and lo and behold, I don't die constantly or become an undue burden on the party, so OP /signed

[mediocresurgeon]

He shouldn't be hit in the first place. An extra 30 hp isn't gonna do much when the wizard has no AC and no DR to help things out.

(Just my opinion)
The way I see it, a good caster-wizard knows to not get hit, whether he/she 10 hp or a thousand. If the wizards you roll with are getting hit, they must suck something mighty fierce.

Toughness is useless, everything depends on how you play, work around idiots.

First problem with this: AOEs. Second problem with this: Stun, trip, command, hold, web, etc. Extra HP mans extra survivability when things go wrong. As a new player, count on things going wrong.
Also, many top warforged casters prefer to get hit. This gives them back many times the amount of spellpoints it takes to heal them. They could not do this efficiently without a solid baseline of hit points. While I don't mean to imply that a new wizard player qualifies as a "top warforged caster," it doesn't mean that they won't get to that point eventually.

On a wizard, what else do you really need feats for?
(Feat order for illustrative purposes only.)
Level1: Insightful Reflexes
Level3: ???
Level5: Extend
Level6: ???
Level9: ???
Level10: Maximize
Level12: ???
Level15: Empower
Level15: Spell Pen 1
Level18: Spell Pen 2
Level20: Quicken

This gives 4 extra feat slots, plus an extra one if you're human.

I agree with the OP. Take toughness on a wizard, especially if you are a new player. And don't dumpstat Constitution--you only need Con/Int on a wizard anyway.

[RTN]

OP is correct. Every wizard should have toughness and spend the AP on the enhancements. After INT, your next highest stat should be CON. At the high levels, there is simply no way to avoid taking damage all the time (cleave, teleporting mobs, massive damage from bosses, etc.). You'll get one hit and die without sufficient HP.

[Xyfiel]

While I was farming necromancer elite runs last night, we had people come and go. A couple sorcs who died left and right. 54 hps at level 8 and casting firewall doesn't mix, and they had no means to heal themselves. I was getting 90% of the kills and the traps, and healing some. I only needed one person to farm it, but that was the group I joined.

Hit level 10 on my TR last night http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/xyfiel/, self buffed stats
50 AC blocking in firewall
Saves 17/23/23 with evasion
Stoneskin and invulnerability
162 hps

No need for heavy fort yet, nothing makes the double crit roll.

[Doxmaster]

(Xaearth
...somehow, we thought the same thing, but missed each other. Perhaps I worded that incorrectly, but I have no idea what wording could correct it, but keep the original point. That, and i don't like editing previous posts: Real men accept the shame of misspelling their own name and such with PRIDE!

(Goldeneye
You don't need to be fast, or pro. Just careful. Random chance like that one orthon smashing you can't be avoided, but 50 extra hp isn't that much. A Con wizard, with hp like a tank, will also be screwed if, by random chance, EVERY orthon comes over and destroys him. A lot of people would be. Luck is like that.


HITPOINTS ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT STAT-for people that could actually take a hit. Dying in 1.5 or 2 hits from a monster is basically the same as dying in 1 hit, but you get to scream "Oh god, why?!" longer.

a dead wizard does no one any good-Don't die. Same goes for everyone. Especially healers.

a wizard running for his life doesn't do any good-Don't get aggro you can't deal with.

a wizard critically low on hp after 1 hit doesn't do any good- ^. Also, a wizard critically low after 2 hits isnt going to do much either.

(IgorUnchained
Self heals. Perfect. WF FTW.

(Memnir
Hmm, I must admit: you almost swayed me. Unfortunately, matters of opinion...still I think you win. Not sure.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

You don't need to be fast, or pro. Just careful. Random chance like that one orthon smashing you can't be avoided, but 50 extra hp isn't that much.

Welcome to the game. I'm sure you will learn it in time.

[phalaeo]

He shouldn't be hit in the first place. An extra 30 hp isn't gonna do much when the wizard has no AC and no DR to help things out.

(Just my opinion)
The way I see it, a good caster-wizard knows to not get hit, whether he/she 10 hp or a thousand. If the wizards you roll with are getting hit, they must suck something mighty fierce.

(A lot less opinion)
Try looking for some WF wizzys: they will self heal, and to get a WF, one much at least know a little about the game.

(Opinion again)
Toughness is useless on a wizard, unless he planned to take hits from the beginning or is going for PM[Rip on PM later everyone. This is about all of us wizards right now]. Some do. Some don't.

(Fact)
Everyone runs quest differently. On my low hp wizard, I rarely die; I know what to and not to do. When I do die, it's planned and I have already asked the cleric for a res after a certain amount of time, told the shields not to follow me and set things up to get the most from my death. Ask anyone I roll with if I drop dead constantly, because I aggro'd everything, but couldn't escape.

If you have death problems, talk to the player. If he is an idiot, kick him/get a new group. No need for anyone to gimp their build, just to die the same exact way, slightly slower.

(Reiteration/TLDR)
Toughness is useless, everything depends on how you play, work around idiots.

Simple.

Sorry, this is flat out wrong for the reasons given above.

[Doxmaster]

I must admit...this is the first time my opinion has ever been wrong. Or anyones.

*Also, please note that I missed tagging one of the lines as opinion. Once again...too lazy to post edit.

[ddoer]

1. all wiz should get toughness and spend at least 3 AP for HP
2. saying good wiz can avoid hit and don't need hp is BS. You can always avoid getting hit by hiding in a corner doing nth, but this won't make you an effective caster.
3. HP/Con is *not* the most important stats. Int is. You can't say Str is the most important str because you need Str 12 to avoid getting helpless by enfeeblement.

[BLAKROC]

He shouldn't be hit in the first place. An extra 30 hp isn't gonna do much when the wizard has no AC and no DR to help things out.

(Just my opinion)
The way I see it, a good caster-wizard knows to not get hit, whether he/she 10 hp or a thousand. If the wizards you roll with are getting hit, they must suck something mighty fierce.

(A lot less opinion)
Try looking for some WF wizzys: they will self heal, and to get a WF, one much at least know a little about the game.

(Opinion again)
Toughness is useless on a wizard, unless he planned to take hits from the beginning or is going for PM[Rip on PM later everyone. This is about all of us wizards right now]. Some do. Some don't.

(Fact)
Everyone runs quest differently. On my low hp wizard, I rarely die; I know what to and not to do. When I do die, it's planned and I have already asked the cleric for a res after a certain amount of time, told the shields not to follow me and set things up to get the most from my death. Ask anyone I roll with if I drop dead constantly, because I aggro'd everything, but couldn't escape.

If you have death problems, talk to the player. If he is an idiot, kick him/get a new group. No need for anyone to gimp their build, just to die the same exact way, slightly slower.

(Reiteration/TLDR)
Toughness is useless, everything depends on how you play, work around idiots.

Simple.

you should rethink your opinion..
tuffness is worthwhile on ANY class......
and if you have to play your low hp wiz, as a death magnet then you need to relearn how to play.................... and occasional death is gonna happen planning on it? is noobsauce............

[xtchizobr]

He shouldn't be hit in the first place. An extra 30 hp isn't gonna do much when the wizard has no AC and no DR to help things out.

(Just my opinion)
The way I see it, a good caster-wizard knows to not get hit, whether he/she 10 hp or a thousand. If the wizards you roll with are getting hit, they must suck something mighty fierce.

(A lot less opinion)
Try looking for some WF wizzys: they will self heal, and to get a WF, one much at least know a little about the game.

(Opinion again)
Toughness is useless on a wizard, unless he planned to take hits from the beginning or is going for PM[Rip on PM later everyone. This is about all of us wizards right now]. Some do. Some don't.

(Fact)
Everyone runs quest differently. On my low hp wizard, I rarely die; I know what to and not to do. When I do die, it's planned and I have already asked the cleric for a res after a certain amount of time, told the shields not to follow me and set things up to get the most from my death. Ask anyone I roll with if I drop dead constantly, because I aggro'd everything, but couldn't escape.

If you have death problems, talk to the player. If he is an idiot, kick him/get a new group. No need for anyone to gimp their build, just to die the same exact way, slightly slower.

(Reiteration/TLDR)
Toughness is useless, everything depends on how you play, work around idiots.

Simple.

i won't take the high road, i'll just call you out right now: you're the ****ing idiot that we all have to work around. fools like you who spread ignorant propaganda based on your experience in other games are the reason some of us are soloing hard mode because it's easier than finding a decent group.

there is no way to play which magically empowers you to invulnerability. you will be hit. and often. and hard. and when i see you getting one-shot, i simply will not waste my time to raise you. there are five other members of the party who can accomplish something without first requiring a Raise Dead. your stone will languish where it falls for all i care. and i do know how much hp you have as soon as i land a heal on you, and i do make a decision about your value to the group which determines whether you get heals.

a good "caster-wizard" knows he will get hit because it's not a class-dependent feature of gameplay. any decent player knows he will get hit.

warforged do not necessarily have to know anything about the game because they can bought from the DDO store instantly.

if your low-hp wizard is not dying often, it's because you're not contributing to the group. stop sitting on your thumbs in the back watching and whipping useless fireball wands to "conserve your sp".

if anything, wizards and fighters are the two classes in the game who have the most incentive to take toughness: they have more feats, and they have a lot of use for more hp. Toughness is more than just the hp which the feat provides, there are enhancements which are worth a whopping 10hp each -- depending on your race, you could get more enhancements than others. WF have the most, and also happen to have constitution as their favored ability. absolutely everyone should put 6 build points into constitution as a minimum. there is simply no reason not to, and the best reason in the world to do so: if you have hp, you can keep playing. it's that simple.

keep in mind that there is no save against Power Word: Kill, but it won't hurt you if you have more than a certain amount of current HP (not max! but if you're missing some hp, you're that much closer to being in PW:Kill range)

i made a WF wiz/rog, and at level 17 with 240+ hp unbuffed, evasion, and insightful reflexes, he is difficult indeed to take out. having watched barbarians drop to half health from an inferno of enemy delayed-blast fireballs and meteor swarms, and knowing that he had twice my hp... while i took no damage but the unavoidable bludgeoning... i can say that there is something to be said for hp, and even more for extra survival measures. not only do i never need to be raised (costing the group 10% xp and the healer's SP or PP to do so), but i also never need to be healed. the healer can babysit the barbies, i brought my own stack of reconstruct scrolls. you can't heal yourself if you're dead, but if you have half your hp remaining, you can eat a scroll and be back to shiny condition again. if you get raised, you also need to be buffed -- the hidden cost of the Raise Dead spell.

it's expensive to die.

the game is balanced under the assumption that everyone has a minimum amount of hp. this is approximately a base CON of 12 or 14, the toughness feat and several toughness enhancements. use your stoneskin wands. they're cheap. seriously. spend one of your surplus feats on insightful reflexes even if you don't splash for evasion (when you make your reflex save, you take half damage from any effect i can think of right now, oh and none from niac's ;-D). wizard don't need any ability except int and con, in that order. you have more than enough build points to put a minimum of 6 into CON. just do it. and buy 100 cure serious, neutralize poison, lesser restoration, and remove disease pots if you aren't WF.

[Anderei]

I must admit...this is the first time my opinion has ever been wrong. Or anyones.

*Also, please note that I missed tagging one of the lines as opinion. Once again...too lazy to post edit.

Just because you disguise a statement as an "opinion" doesn't make it immune to be false or just wrong.

I've an opinion the world if flat, and all left-handed people should be killed.

[Beld]

I must admit...this is the first time my opinion has ever been wrong. Or anyones.

*Also, please note that I missed tagging one of the lines as opinion. Once again...too lazy to post edit.

OK, your opinion is technically not wrong 'for you' just very poorly thought out, is that better ??