Charisma: does extra help?

[kelabb]

Hi,

Running a bard with fighter splash... could be 4, could be 6 (and Kensai... will see as I progress).

I see lots of builds aiming at Warchanter that keep charisma down to 10 or 12, building to no more than 16. If all I wanted was buffs, I guess that's all right.

Now, I like to CC as well. I understand that more charisma will assist spell penetration. I don't know where I read that. Obviously, to land a charm, fascinate, sleep etc I need to defeat the enemy's spell resistance (SR). With some of the extra feats from taking fighter I plan to take Spell Penetration and maybe Greater Spell Penetration to help this along.

Is there a benefit in building my Charisma score to 20 or more, or is it just points wasted that could have gone to Strength for to-hit or Constitution for hit points?

[Rusty_Can]

Now, I like to CC as well. I understand that more charisma will assist spell penetration. I don't know where I read that.

Nope. Spell Penetration checks are not affected by your abilities, but by your caster level (i.e. how many levels you have in that class). Higher CHA means that your spells are more difficult to resist (i.e. they have higher DC).

I see lots of builds aiming at Warchanter that keep charisma down to 10 or 12, building to no more than 16. If all I wanted was buffs, I guess that's all right.

For crowd control, melee bards , usually don't use CC spells, but rely on songs, whose DC is decent also without very high CHA.

Hi,
Obviously, to land a charm, fascinate, sleep etc I need to defeat the enemy's spell resistance (SR).

Fascinate song doesn't require Spell Resistance checks.

Running a bard with fighter splash... could be 4, could be 6 (and Kensai... will see as I progress).

Is there a benefit in building my Charisma score to 20 or more, or is it just points wasted that could have gone to Strength for to-hit or Constitution for hit points?

It really depends on your build, but with 4 or 6 fighter levels, I'd say no; keep putting points in STR and forget about spells which allow saves.

[BoBoDaClown]

Hi,

Running a bard with fighter splash... could be 4, could be 6 (and Kensai... will see as I progress).

I see lots of builds aiming at Warchanter that keep charisma down to 10 or 12, building to no more than 16. If all I wanted was buffs, I guess that's all right.

Now, I like to CC as well. I understand that more charisma will assist spell penetration. I don't know where I read that. Obviously, to land a charm, fascinate, sleep etc I need to defeat the enemy's spell resistance (SR). With some of the extra feats from taking fighter I plan to take Spell Penetration and maybe Greater Spell Penetration to help this along.

Is there a benefit in building my Charisma score to 20 or more, or is it just points wasted that could have gone to Strength for to-hit or Constitution for hit points?

The problem with trying to CC with your warchanter is because you lose so much through your fighter splash.

Assuming 4 levels of fighter = -3 save DC total from loss of capstone and double that again from spell resistance DCs. Since saves are balanced against characters that go all out in achieving high DCs, your bard would have difficulty landing spells.

So, I wouldn't waste level ups on cha, or feats on spell pen.

Hope that helps

[kelabb]

Nop. Spell Resistance is not affected by your abilities, but by your caster level (i.e. how many levels you have in that class). Higher CHA means that your spells are more difficult to resist (i.e. they have higher DC).

There's the critical factor for CC then. Thanks for explaining that for me.

I've actually come up with a utility build that at Level 19 is 15 Bard, 2 Fighter, 2 Rogue. I have a choice of all three for level 20, depending upon what I feel the character needs most at that stage. It will be a hard decision, but I guess I can go a different way with a subsequent toon at a later date.

Thanks. Gone all the CC spells (sob).

[xtchizobr]

who uses spells on a bard for CC anyway? ;-D

no... seriously.

[Anderei]

who uses spells on a bard for CC anyway? ;-D

no... seriously.

in the 6-16 lvl range they are godly on a CC/Spellsinger focus, have/had very much fun leveling one, now near the cap it flats off IMHO. Resorting to spent most time on buffing and healing (and thats altough I've 33 CHA) and using every UMD device I can get my fingers upon to support my groups.

CC on a bard *can* be done, but its tricky even if you make an explicit focus out of it, if you're a warchanter with DPS-splashes, just forget about it