Dipping into Monk?

[Peo]

There seems to be just this whole idea of dipping into the monk with other classes for the feats, saves, and air stance is going around for every class under the sun. Is it really viable for a FvS at all?

Just far looking at the classes I don't think so, let me know where I'm off and anything I missed. I'd like to hear of some good counter points.


Wisdom to AC
Consider this +5 Mithral Full-Plate gives +13 AC and is medium armor making a FvS profecent in it. Comparably with +6 bracers you need a total of 24 wisdom to equal that and you won't achieve it until much later in the game as opposed to sporting +5 armor by the 8th level. In order you get 24 wisdom you'll have to sink a lot of your starting points and/or level up points into it. Which means you'll lose out in str/con of a nonwisdom dedicated build. Also I hear AC is pretty worthless at epic, dunno for sure on that.


Evasion
I still don't understand why someone would chase after this. For the most part it's to cover your rear when you run though traps, play smart and get a rogue in the party. Problem solved. Against spells, well there isn't that much going for it. For three different energy types anything less than 80 damage isn't going to hurt you which I think means dodge the dragon's mouth and you won't miss a thing. Or is there a lot of stuff to evade at the end game I haven't heard of yet?


Air Stance
Gives a +10% to melee speed. Going off the AC is worthless part, just get armor/decent of Melee Alacrity which also has +10% attack speed. Said prop is available though rare loot, greensteel items and probably has a chance to spawn out normally. You can pick up the Air Stance at the 1st level given you a speed boost much sooner in the game than chasing over the enchanted armor so I guess thats pretty useful, reincarnate later on to drop the monk level.


Aligning the Heavens
I'm too lazy to run the numbers here, and they are probably too complex to really figure out but if you med before buffing, which no party lets you do and I've made it though 12 levels as my monk, you'll have a -25% factor in SP costs, you can pop off the boost pretty much are the end of each encounter to heal everyone up too but don't expect to have it while you're doing things like blade barrier and divine power.

Compare to the almost 400sp lost from not taking two levels in FvS, the bonus dilution so you only get +90%sp from items, and the chances you'll just have someone that dipped into or is a monk in the party or raid.


Feats
This is probably the main reason I suppose. Everyone loves extra feats, but is it worth the dip?
You'll want Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell for spellcasting, Power Attack & Improved Critical for damage. From there normally you'll have two feat slots.

Extend is a good pick at low levels, but later on it really doesn't seem all that useful other than extending Divine Power. Toughness is another good pick but with Death Pact's auto res, Stalwart Pact's +100 temp HP when you lose enough life, Divine Power giving you temp HP every time you cast it (which is every 2~4 minutes), being able to pop off a quickened +240hp (mass) Heal spell off, and in the case of ditching wisdom for str or con it doesn't seem absolutely required either though probably highly useful, I mean what else are you going to take?


Damage
Monk's lose focus when you use nonmonk weapons, so you can't use any of your FvS's faith weapons or the whole wis to ac & combos are shot out the window. Outside of the dagger all monk weapons have a crit range of 20 and only the staff can be used two handed.

A glance at the thread New to FVS: Is this feasible? and currently the bottem post says it will have 16 str by the 20th level and even plans to have ITWF & PA so I'll use that as my example since it's both TWF and monk based. With +6 enchantment after that it has what I fathom to be the damage of 20 per hit or 23 with a strike. Thats 1d6 for fist/kama + 5 (enchant) + 6 (24 str) + 5 (PA) + 3.4 (1d6 dmg strike), avg 23 with a crit range of 19~20. Where as a scimitar user takes advantage of FvS's +2 damage and sports a 15~20 crit range, or a warforged who gets an increase his str damage by 50% and getting +16 off his power attack and a 17~20 crit range. It seems even offense takes a huge loss.


Spells
You give up two 9th level spells and one 8th level spell known to dip into monk for two levels. This pins you to a single 9th level spell where as I plan to take Mass Heal to heal the entire party at once for a large amount, Energy Drain becuase after empower/maximize anything not immune to negative energy is going to suck afterwards, and True Resurrection since people will probably just redie if I use anything less and I won't have to waste time healing after they res.
Which ones will the monk dipper give up hmm?


Damage Reduction
Last thing I'll touch on. Pure FvS get DR 10 / some metal. Suddenly you take less damage from pretty much everything and probably ignore the TWF monks in pvp since they only deal half damage to you. Really, 10 may not be much if you're getting hit for 150, but from what I've been killed by in the Vale's explorer area the DR 10 will make a huge impact in how far I get to run away (only 14th level so far).

My view is biaist towards pure FvS based on the above reasons, am I in need of enlightenment?

[Khayvan]

I really suggest you take a look at Impaqt's excellent build:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200561

You seem to think that a monk splash is using it's fists. It isn't, in this case it would be going with scimitars.

Evasion is worth it, IMO. It's huge when soloing, and awesome in a group when you take no damage from traps and AoE spells that has to be healed. And two extra feats on a feat starved build? Yes please.

However, it might not suite your playstyle. If you don't feel the trade-offs are worth it, don't do it. FvS is a great class on it's own and there's nothing wrong with staying pure to 20.

[Impatiens]

There seems to be just this whole idea of dipping into the monk with other classes for the feats, saves, and air stance is going around for every class under the sun. Is it really viable for a FvS at all?

Just far looking at the classes I don't think so, let me know where I'm off and anything I missed. I'd like to hear of some good counter points.


Wisdom to AC
Consider this +5 Mithral Full-Plate gives +13 AC and is medium armor making a FvS profecent in it. Comparably with +6 bracers you need a total of 24 wisdom to equal that and you won't achieve it until much later in the game as opposed to sporting +5 armor by the 8th level. In order you get 24 wisdom you'll have to sink a lot of your starting points and/or level up points into it. Which means you'll lose out in str/con of a nonwisdom dedicated build. Also I hear AC is pretty worthless at epic, dunno for sure on that.

Since wisdom effects the DCs of offensive spells most FVS will have a lot of it, even on a melee based build. My FVS is sitting at 32 Wisdom right now with items. You would likely be wearing DT, which has +6 armor and Chaosgarde bracers (or +8 armor bracers, why would anyone only wear +6 armor bracers?) Also most melee based builds are going to be TWF builds (except WF) which means they will have higher Dex numbers to up their AC as well. It is true that the AC you can obtain on a FVS probably isn't going to do anything for you in epics, but it certainly helps while leveling up.


Evasion
I still don't understand why someone would chase after this. For the most part it's to cover your rear when you run though traps, play smart and get a rogue in the party. Problem solved. Against spells, well there isn't that much going for it. For three different energy types anything less than 80 damage isn't going to hurt you which I think means dodge the dragon's mouth and you won't miss a thing. Or is there a lot of stuff to evade at the end game I haven't heard of yet?

Evasion is amazing and probably the biggest reason to splash monk. It is not just about avoiding traps. There are many spells that have reflex saves associated with them too and FVS have very good saves in general to make evasion worth while. Being an evasion healer for enter the kobold? Awesome. Not getting hit by a single fire ball while on the bases in Epic Von6? Awesome. Only having to deal with the bludgeon damage from meteor-swarms that Harry is so fond of casting? Awesome. Those are just a few examples.


Air Stance
Gives a +10% to melee speed. Going off the AC is worthless part, just get armor/decent of Melee Alacrity which also has +10% attack speed. Said prop is available though rare loot, greensteel items and probably has a chance to spawn out normally. You can pick up the Air Stance at the 1st level given you a speed boost much sooner in the game than chasing over the enchanted armor so I guess thats pretty useful, reincarnate later on to drop the monk level.

No FVS is splashing monk for wind stance. You can't use stances with non monk weapons.


Aligning the Heavens
I'm too lazy to run the numbers here, and they are probably too complex to really figure out but if you med before buffing, which no party lets you do and I've made it though 12 levels as my monk, you'll have a -25% factor in SP costs, you can pop off the boost pretty much are the end of each encounter to heal everyone up too but don't expect to have it while you're doing things like blade barrier and divine power.

Compare to the almost 400sp lost from not taking two levels in FvS, the bonus dilution so you only get +90%sp from items, and the chances you'll just have someone that dipped into or is a monk in the party or raid.

Most monk splash builds have 2 monk, they can't cast aligning. No one is splashing monk for this either.


Feats
This is probably the main reason I suppose. Everyone loves extra feats, but is it worth the dip?
You'll want Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell for spellcasting, Power Attack & Improved Critical for damage. From there normally you'll have two feat slots.

Extend is a good pick at low levels, but later on it really doesn't seem all that useful other than extending Divine Power. Toughness is another good pick but with Death Pact's auto res, Stalwart Pact's +100 temp HP when you lose enough life, Divine Power giving you temp HP every time you cast it (which is every 2~4 minutes), being able to pop off a quickened +240hp (mass) Heal spell off, and in the case of ditching wisdom for str or con it doesn't seem absolutely required either though probably highly useful, I mean what else are you going to take?

Two extra feats is nothing to sneeze at and I think you are underestimating toughness. You can get so many extra hit points from having toughness through enhancements. As a melee FVS, which are the ones typically splashing monk, you are also going to want the entire TWF line (WF is the exception though I assume they want the TWF line). A FVS without a monk splash will not have enough feats for that.


Damage
Monk's lose focus when you use nonmonk weapons, so you can't use any of your FvS's faith weapons or the whole wis to ac & combos are shot out the window. Outside of the dagger all monk weapons have a crit range of 20 and only the staff can be used two handed.

Wis to AC stays even with being uncentered you just have to be unarmored. Virtually NO monk splash FVS are using monk weapons (which, btw, the dagger is not).

A glance at the thread New to FVS: Is this feasible? and currently the bottem post says it will have 16 str by the 20th level and even plans to have ITWF & PA so I'll use that as my example since it's both TWF and monk based. With +6 enchantment after that it has what I fathom to be the damage of 20 per hit or 23 with a strike. Thats 1d6 for fist/kama + 5 (enchant) + 6 (24 str) + 5 (PA) + 3.4 (1d6 dmg strike), avg 23 with a crit range of 19~20. Where as a scimitar user takes advantage of FvS's +2 damage and sports a 15~20 crit range, or a warforged who gets an increase his str damage by 50% and getting +16 off his power attack and a 17~20 crit range. It seems even offense takes a huge loss.

Again, FVS monk splash builds are NOT using monk weapons.


Spells
You give up two 9th level spells and one 8th level spell known to dip into monk for two levels. This pins you to a single 9th level spell where as I plan to take Mass Heal to heal the entire party at once for a large amount, Energy Drain becuase after empower/maximize anything not immune to negative energy is going to suck afterwards, and True Resurrection since people will probably just redie if I use anything less and I won't have to waste time healing after they res.
Which ones will the monk dipper give up hmm?

This is about your only valid point so far. It is a little frustrating to give up so many 9th level spells. I took Mass Heal. Resurrection by itself is usually enough and other casters are usually so level drain happy so they can insta kill mobs that it's really not necessary for me to be.


Damage Reduction
Last thing I'll touch on. Pure FvS get DR 10 / some metal. Suddenly you take less damage from pretty much everything and probably ignore the TWF monks in pvp since they only deal half damage to you. Really, 10 may not be much if you're getting hit for 150, but from what I've been killed by in the Vale's explorer area the DR 10 will make a huge impact in how far I get to run away (only 14th level so far).

Stoneskin gives you the same DR, and since a lot of melee FVS builds count on having 2 MinII weapons you'll have quite a few clickies. I also have the guard that procs stoneskin on my DT

My view is biaist towards pure FvS based on the above reasons, am I in need of enlightenment?

Yes you are iin need of enlightenment. Hopefully my answers helped

Answers in red.

[Matuse]

Wisdom to AC
Consider this +5 Mithral Full-Plate gives +13 AC and is medium armor making a FvS profecent in it. Comparably with +6 bracers you need a total of 24 wisdom to equal that and you won't achieve it until much later in the game as opposed to sporting +5 armor by the 8th level. In order you get 24 wisdom you'll have to sink a lot of your starting points and/or level up points into it. Which means you'll lose out in str/con of a nonwisdom dedicated build. Also I hear AC is pretty worthless at epic, dunno for sure on that.

+5 mithril fullplate is not the most common stuff in the world, and you wouldn't be wearing it anyway as a monk splash, since it inhibits evasion. 24 wisdom would be WOEFULLY low for any FvS who is at all serious about offensive spellcasting. Mine is 30, and I consider that to be marginal at best.

AC isn't just worthless on epic, it's worthless well before that, unless you have -gobs- of it, which is something a FvS would really struggle for (and would majorly hurt your spellcasting or your melee, or both).

But this isn't why people splash monk on a FvS.

Evasion
I still don't understand why someone would chase after this.

You've clearly never had a character with it, then. Evasion is if not THE most powerful ability in the game, then right up there in the top 5.

Air Stance
Gives a +10% to melee speed. Going off the AC is worthless part, just get armor/decent of Melee Alacrity which also has +10% attack speed. Said prop is available though rare loot, greensteel items and probably has a chance to spawn out normally.

Air stance stacks with haste. Items with melee alacrity don't. The mod also NEVER spawns randomly, and is only found on specific items which are obscenely rare. And greensteel is not one of them. You can get air guard, but it's not the same thing.

Also, not a reason anyone splashes monk into a FvS, since you can't maintain a stance and use proper deity weapons.

Aligning the Heavens

Not a reason anyone splashes Monk into a FvS.

Feats
This is probably the main reason I suppose. Everyone loves extra feats, but is it worth the dip?
You'll want Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell for spellcasting, Power Attack & Improved Critical for damage. From there normally you'll have two feat slots.

Extend is a good pick at low levels, but later on it really doesn't seem all that useful other than extending Divine Power. Toughness is another good pick but with Death Pact's auto res, Stalwart Pact's +100 temp HP when you lose enough life, Divine Power giving you temp HP every time you cast it (which is every 2~4 minutes), being able to pop off a quickened +240hp (mass) Heal spell off, and in the case of ditching wisdom for str or con it doesn't seem absolutely required either though probably highly useful, I mean what else are you going to take?

Anyone who doesn't take Toughness is someone I'll never group with a second time.

Extend is not just super convenient for the 40 minute (or 36 minute for a 2 splash) normal buffs. You want it for divine power...especially as a monk splash, since you won't even make the 15 BAB speed breakpoint, and you -really- want it for Blade Barrier. I took it at level 6, and it has never been off since then.

The temp hp from divine power are less than meaningless, death pact might kick you back up, but it also makes you more likely to die in the first place. Plus, there's a limit to how many of those spells you can take. Protection From Elements, Raise Dead, Greater Command, Break Enchantment, Spell Resistance...which one of those do you drop for Stalwart Pact?

2 extra feats is HUGE.

Effective character:
Toughness

Effective spellcaster:
Quicken, Extend, Empower, Maximize...add Empower Healing if you want to go nuts there.

Effective melee:
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Power Attack, Improved Critical:X (even with greensteel...only mineral weapons are automatically keen...radiance and lightning are not, and there's more to life than greensteel...banishers, vorpals, paralyzers, smiters, holy silver greater banes, etc)

So, that's 10 feats right there. A non-splash gets 7 or 8. Which ones do you drop? A splash has that many fewer decisions to make.

Damage
Monk's lose focus when you use nonmonk weapons, so you can't use any of your FvS's faith weapons or the whole wis to ac & combos are shot out the window.

If you're really that desperate to run the combos, you can hotkey some handwraps (which double as ooze beaters), run the combo, and then switch to real weapons.

A glance at the thread New to FVS: Is this feasible? and currently the bottem post says it will have 16 str by the 20th level and even plans to have ITWF & PA so I'll use that as my example since it's both TWF and monk based.

Well, ok, but be aware that a 16 strength (with a +6 item) means that this character will be really terrible at melee. Try making the comparison with a build that will have a 26.

Spells
You give up two 9th level spells and one 8th level spell known to dip into monk for two levels.

Yes...when you take levels out of a casting class, you become much less of a spellcaster. This is the drawback.

Damage Reduction
Last thing I'll touch on. Pure FvS get DR 10 / some metal. Suddenly you take less damage from pretty much everything and probably ignore the TWF monks in pvp since they only deal half damage to you.

Well, anything relating to PvP should be ignored for all build purposes, since PvP composes at -most- 1% of the game. But if you're fighting an 18/2 FvS/Monk who is only hitting for 20 points, you've managed to find one of the weakest melee characters ever made.

The 10 points of DR is a HUGE boost to the pure FvS. It vastly increases survivability, particularly when solo or in small groups, as many monsters will struggle to bypass it for more than a point or two of damage. This is also a drawback of the splash.

Additionally, you lose your deity capstone spell. Depending on which deity it is, this can make a pretty big difference.

I can't think of anyone who uniformly advocates splashing 2 levels of monk to the exclusion of all other builds. If there was such a person, I'd take great joy in laughing in their face. But the splash builds can be quite good. As with all multiclassing, you have to know what you are gaining and what you are giving up when you do it.

Do you want:
2 feats
evasion?

Then splash monk.

Do you want:
350ish more SP
10/- DR (ok, it's not really /-, but no monster can break any FvS DR, so it may as well be)
2 more level 9 spells
Capstone spell

Then stay pure.

[aristarchus1000]

Not much to add to the rather excellent response by Matuse above, just wanted to comment.


The Sp difference in only 245 on base tables, and since charisma will largely be the same (I personally think any charisma above 12 is a waste, possibly 14 at most). Even if the charisma is higher, it is only 29 points for every 2 Charisma at level 20, so lets call it 280.

Basically, if you want evasion and/or TWF melee, you basically need to splash monk. gTWF makes a huge difference because you finally get double attacks on the FIRST attack for both moving and standing, and given how often you have to move, this is far bigger impact than the just "one more left handed attack to the chain" that it appears to be at first glance.

I find the ability to be an evasion healer to be really, really powerful, especially in raid healing situations where you are trying to heal 12 people while dodging blades, fireballs and what-have-you and there is nowhere "safe" to stand. I'm sure that some of the vets may look down on me for my lack of l33t skills, but for someone new and learning the game, evasion makes a huge difference to both my own and my party's survivability.