Question on Tempest builds

[byzantinebob]

I'm close to unlocking veteran status for a server and thinking of starting a new char to farm easy lower level favor for points. My friend with whom I always quest with is pondering the same. The char I am looking into is a Tempest that for all sakes and purposes would remain pure or at least plan on 18/whatever should I enjoy playing him. I see lots of builds but they are all human or dwarf. My question is why there aren't a lot of WF Tempest builds? Would it work better as a fighter/barb and there is some major flaw in WF preventing it from excelling? I haven't crunched any numbers but WF upgraded PA + Tempest III + WF immunities just sound like a nice combo. Am I missing something?

[markusthelion]

I'm close to unlocking veteran status for a server and thinking of starting a new char to farm easy lower level favor for points. My friend with whom I always quest with is pondering the same. The char I am looking into is a Tempest that for all sakes and purposes would remain pure or at least plan on 18/whatever should I enjoy playing him. I see lots of builds but they are all human or dwarf. My question is why there aren't a lot of WF Tempest builds? Would it work better as a fighter/barb and there is some major flaw in WF preventing it from excelling? I haven't crunched any numbers but WF upgraded PA + Tempest III + WF immunities just sound like a nice combo. Am I missing something?

First off I think you may have a few things confused about tempest. Tempest is a ranger enhancement so a Fighter/barb wouldn't even have the option for tempest. You need at least 6 ranger lvls and the appropriate feats to qualify for tempest. Also, human gives and extra feat for rangers and thats good for a class that doesn't get as many feats as say a fighter. Dwarf gives a con bonus to beef up HP for rangers.

If you want Wf + tempest take 6 lvls of ranger and then go the rest fighter and qualify for tempest + kensi. Look at "the monster" build here on the forums and you'll find what your looking for. Hope this helps

[byzantinebob]

I understand what Tempest is a ranger PrE. I'm asking why there are no builds that use WF as a race when other melee classes use them all the time. I am merely asking if WF don't make a good Tempest Ranger for some reason.

[Pintail]

Maybe because wisdom is a primary stat for rangers and starting with a 6 wisdom doesn't work very well.

[Sweyn]

Maybe because wisdom is a primary stat for rangers and starting with a 6 wisdom doesn't work very well.

FYI, a ranger can function 100% starting with a 6 wisdom. The ONLY thing rangers NEED wisdom is for casting spells. The highest are lvl 4, so

6 Base
6 Item
2 Tome
-------
14 Thats enough to cast all ranger spells.

Of course, starting with 6 wisdom will hinder your will save, and i don't recomend it, but your assumption that wisdom is a PRIMARY stat and doens't work well starting low is completly wrong.

[byzantinebob]

Maybe because wisdom is a primary stat for rangers and starting with a 6 wisdom doesn't work very well.

Ok, I just want to clarify because this does not make sense to me. I am looking to make a TWF melee char. I see that it says that a Ranger with Tempest is an expert at TWF. Sounds like I found a good match. I pick WF because immunities and stats seem to line up with someone who wants to melee. I casually peruse the builds and see no WF listed. I ask why this is, and it is because I can't cast spells? Is casting that important that it breaks the char to not care about it? If so, I have completely misunderstood this class.

[Sweyn]

Ok, I just want to clarify because this does not make sense to me. I am looking to make a TWF melee char. I see that it says that a Ranger with Tempest is an expert at TWF. Sounds like I found a good match. I pick WF because immunities and stats seem to line up with someone who wants to melee. I casually peruse the builds and see no WF listed. I ask why this is, and it is because I can't cast spells? Is casting that important that it breaks the char to not care about it? If so, I have completely misunderstood this class.

You can cast spells even if you start with a 6 wisdom, you might not early on, but you still can. Build right, WF make fine rangers (Although i prefer human). And yes, casting spells really improves your toon. You don't want to be the ranger asking for resists, or barkskin, or FoM lmao

[shenthing]

Focus on synergy of specifics. Tempest grants melee alacrity and supports a TWF style. One of your most common ranger builds incorporates one or two levels of monk which grants a little extra on saves, evasion (if you don't have enough ranger levels for it)and the ability to apply your Wis bonus to AC.
Overall, there is no real reason to not use WF for a tempest build and they do exist and excel at times (you also get a boon to your HPs which a number of builds lack). I would say if you want to build a WF tempest, make sure to focus on DPS and HPs, try and getting your healing from Divine sources pumped(even if you have a UMD build you will need this at some point), and make sure to pay attention to your will saves.

[Shishizaru]

I'm pretty sure Human is a popular choice due to the extra feat, which helps a lot (especially if you want to pick up Khopesh). Not sure about Dwarf, but I would guess that the CON bonus and penalty in a dump stat would make it pretty decent.

Going Warforged means putting extra effort into getting enough WIS to pump out spells (getting a +6 item usually solves this for any non-WF build, so the WF player will have 2 WIS to make up). The question then becomes if the WF immunities worth it over Human or Dwarf who statistically mesh better with the class. You'd also have to consider the fact that you take a penalty to divine healing as well.

[griffon84]

i picked dwarf for my tempest mainly to get access to dwarf war axe and i think dwarfs make good melee builds. i didnt want to go human because getting dwarf war axe is basicaly getting a bonus feat if you plan on taking khopesh as human and you get better meshing stats and other dwarf benefits.

WF could easily make a good ranger, like Sweyn posted you can easily get the wis for spell casting. alot of people shy away from WF for this build is because of the wis i think. with this build you'll prolly end up with a high (26+) dex so alot tend to wear robes because of this so they can get the full bonus from dex to ac. because of this 1level of mnk is takin by alot so they can apply the wis bonus to ac as well. my build will be 18rng/1mnk/1ftr, right now im level 12...10rng/1ftr/1mnk...i have 39ac self buffed. WF does offer alot of bonuses that melee to benefit from so it is a viable option for a tempest build, ive seen WF tempest and exploiter builds and they did just fine. its just a least popular option because of the wis and ac issues but with the right build theres no reason WF wont make a good tempest build, just that human, dwarf, and elf has better starting stats and is eaiser applied to the build, but like i said i dont see any reason why WF wouldnt make a good tempest rng

[Sweyn]

The ranger class is awesome for one because it can work with any race

Human- Go STR and use Khopesh
Halfling- Prolly go dex and get the guile
Elf- STR or dex, and use scimmys
Drow- Rapiers
Dwarf- STR and D'axes
WF- STR and prolly grab khopesh

There is no set race for the ranger class. People who tell you that a Certain race will not make a good ranger have no idea what they are talking about. Yes, some classes might be better off than others, but all would do fine. It all depends what you want to accomplish with your ranger, not all people want to have a 46 STR and have the best DPS, on the other hand, some might want extreamly high STR and amazing dps, your prefrence

[Silvershaper]

Elf- STR or dex, and use scimmys

Is there any reason to use scimmies over rapier? When you take scimi enhancements, they also work for falchion (two-handed), but rapier also gives for longswords, with which you can also dual wield. Meaning you will be able to dual wield piercing and slashing (though longswords should only be used when piercing is resisted). Or does scimitars have some advantage over rapier I haven't noticed?

[honkuimushi]

Is there any reason to use scimmies over rapier? When you take scimi enhancements, they also work for falchion (two-handed), but rapier also gives for longswords, with which you can also dual wield. Meaning you will be able to dual wield piercing and slashing (though longswords should only be used when piercing is resisted). Or does scimitars have some advantage over rapier I haven't noticed?

I've found that piercing resistant enemies are more common than slashing resistant but piercing vulnerable enemies. You could go rapier with a longsword slashing set, but a lot of rapiers users are finesse builds. But most people will want to use their favored weapons as much as possible. That's more mental than numbers based.

Also, scimitars tend to be cheaper because you aren't competing with pure Bards, Rogues or finesse builds.


As for Warforged, they work fine as Rangers, but they do have some disadvantages and few advantages that synergise with the Ranger class.

Dwarves get the dwarven axe as a bonus plus thier extra Con and Toughness enhancements help compensate for Rangers' d8 hp and lack of Toughness enhancements. The hit to Chr only matters with Paladin splashes.

Humans get an extra feat and an extra skill point per level(which makes an 8 Int less of an issue) and they have the ability to increase 2 stats by 1 as well as to get a 3rd Toughness enhancement if Con was one of those stats.
They also get recovery enhancements.

Warforged work fine, but they are not necessarily optimal. First, the bonus to Con is nice, but in addition to the hit to Chr, they take one to Wis as well, which impacts their spellcasting. It also makes a monk splash less useful.

Next is feats. Non humans get 7, but Tempest III requires 4, none of which is really all that useful. Most people want Toughness, Improved Critical and Power Attack as well. That leaves no room for khopesh and for WF, no body feat either. The body feat's not all that important on a Ranger, but having one does make having a decent AC at lower levels much easier. You could take Adamantine Body at first and switch it out before leveling to Ranger 9. But it's hard to find a feat to switch out. The Dodge-> Mobility -> Spring Attack chain has to be taken in that order. OTWF can't be taken until you get TWF at Ranger 2. Toughness works, but you have to do without it for at least 8 levels. Power Attack works as well, though many people wait longer for it. Khopesh will work, but a lot of people find waiting that long to be a trial.

Finally, you have healing. Tempests, other than monk splashes, tend not to be AC builds. that means that healing is very important. The warforged penalty hurts. To a cleric with Heal, that isn't crippling if the WF has taken a Healer's Friend or 2, but it hurts self healing more. You get up to Cure Serious as as cast spell and wands. But unlike Clerics, you don't get a wand damage enhacement or healing critical enhancements. And the Devotion enhacements have more competition and a devotion item is harder to fit in. When you add this to the WF healing penalty, it makes self healing much less effective.


All of these issues can be worked around, and the immunities are very nice, but they don't have the obvious benefits of a dwarf or human.