Ddo Is Too Hard

[ahpook]

I don´t think the gameplay is really harder than in other games.

But I have to agree that the character building is too hard, or too complicated.
Personally, I don´t like to study forums before I can even try to play for myself, nor do I like to copy some character build everyone thinks best.
I like to find out stuff for myself. I like to try out what works for me and what doesn´t.
And this doesn´t work in this game.
You have to plan your character from lvl 1 to lvl 20 before you even log in for the first time. If you are no expert on character builds, you will probably build a character which is of little to no use in end game.

Or all in all it´s the "metagaming" that is required in many parts of the game.
For me, it takes a lot of fun out of the game, when I am required to read about what will happen at what point in a quest. For example, you can´t do "Church and the cult" if you don´t know that the endboss is a vampire and how to beat him.

I couldn't disagree more (but for different reasons than RATRACE).

As long as you are not trying too get to fancy, you can just start your character up and learn as you go. My first character was a rogue, I rolled him up as a dex based so I could use short bows effectively and ignored UMD. A few levels in I realized that there were some bad choices so I changed a couple of feats and started putting points into UMD. By the time I hit the cap at 14 he had max ranks in UMD and translated that ranged idea into TWF. He was always playable. All the way to level 20 as a 28 pt build.

I had no idea what I was doing except that I shouldn't try to do too much.

The problem with froobs who build **** toons is that they think doing a little of everything will be good so they create those rogue/wiz/cleric hybrids. Avoiding that does not require research and planning. It requires sanity.

Maybe they shouldn't let you multiclass the first character you roll up. Maybe they should reintroduce the idea of stat requirements so that certain builds are simply impossible. Maybe we shouldn't care about idiots and quit trying to protect them. maybe we should be comfortable with them quitting.

[Sneakee]

The problem is that it's hard and super expensive to fix mistakes. This is the main dark side of DDO.

Make respec/reincarnate easier/cheaper, not quests.

Ummm...super expensive???????

FREE TO PLAY

If your toon is THAT screwed....REROLL and learn from the experience.

Sheesh!

[KKDragonLord]

The problem with froobs who build **** toons is that they think doing a little of everything will be good so they create those rogue/wiz/cleric hybrids. Avoiding that does not require research and planning. It requires sanity.

Maybe they shouldn't let you multiclass the first character you roll up. Maybe they should reintroduce the idea of stat requirements so that certain builds are simply impossible. Maybe we shouldn't care about idiots and quit trying to protect them. maybe we should be comfortable with them quitting.

I Lolled

Especially because it seems that making bad MCs is the norm instead of the exception in the pugs i've made

[flynnjsw]

I Lolled

Especially because it seems that making bad MCs is the norm instead of the exception in the pugs i've made

You mean like the Wiz/Sorc/Cleric I saw yesterday???

[KKDragonLord]

You mean like the Wiz/Sorc/Cleric I saw yesterday???

That and the Clr7/Barb7 who was leading a VoN run, (we failed, then i started another and completed it)

and wiz4/sorc3/ranger2

etc...

[ArichValtrahn]

You may want to change the title to "character building is too complicated". DDO is not hard. Otherwise, I think you're right.

Definitely. DDO is generally easy. Anything Ive had trouble with has been the result of improper preperation. Character builds, on the other hand, are ridiculously complicated. Heck, even following posted builds can be difficult for new players.

[KKDragonLord]

Definitely. DDO is generally easy. Anything Ive had trouble with has been the result of improper preperation. Character builds, on the other hand, are ridiculously complicated. Heck, even following posted builds can be difficult for new players.

Just gotta point out that this is what sets the game apart from most mmos out there and its a good thing in the end.

Stick to a pure class and you wont go (too) wrong, its what i always say.

[HamsterBoo]

I feel like it would all be so much easier for newbs if we got some player friendly, 28 point builds and categorized them.
If I just started playing (as I have) I would love to see for each class a:
Good soloing build (with a warning that you should play in a party). This they sometimes already have
Optimized endgame build (with a description of what they do (dps, healing, tanking, etc.))
Easy leveling build (maybe not all the way up to 20, but a way to start people out)
and more that I cant think of right now.

Btw, this wont encourage "uniforming" because they are all 28 point pure builds.

Just rating the pre-made build based on soloability makes every1 a battlecleric (Which I confess I am, though now I got a GD V scepter and only heal because I suck at everything else).

Oh, and Multiclassing should be unlocked at 500 favor or so, but on all servers. At that, a newb will probly be too attached to their level 8-10 toon to reroll a gimped multiclass.

[HeeHaw]

Character re-speccing is DDO's worst feature, in my opinion.

Here's what I hear a lot in this forum: "Your first character is a practice character. Level him up until you know why he sucks, and then re-roll your real character."

Guild Wars was brought up earlier in this thread. While that game certainly has its issues, one of its biggest successful features is instant free re-speccing (while in a town). In a nutshell, you can run through a new adventure and fail. You can then look at your build, tweak it in town, and try the adventure again. If your build turns out to be improved, you can save it, and call it up again later. Throughout the game, a character will develop a list of builds, each with a different focus. The player can use the best build for any given situation.

This has many benefits:

1. It encourages both experimentation and learning. A new player can build the equivalent of a Wiz/Sor/War, and once it becomes evident why the build doesn't work, he can change it around and try again. When a vet gives him advice, he can apply it to his existing character, instead of filing it away for some "real" character down the line.

2. It helps future-proof characters for the changes inevitable in MMO's. How many players do I hear on this forum complaining that game updates have gimped their previously viable characters? With a system like GW's, this is not an issue.

3. It allows the devs freedom to make dungeons that require higher specializations. A dungeon can be made with a deadly trap that requires a trapmonkey to disarm, and a Rogue doesn't have to build a character that is gimped everywhere but that dungeon. He can use his trapmonkey build in that dungeon, and switch back to a different build for the next.

It's not an "easy button" issue. It's an issue of letting players learn the game as they play, rather than having them learn the game before they can play for real. The fact that Turbine added re-speccing options and them made them moneymaking items rather than free features is really sad. Especially for long time players with a stable of gimped characters.

[clanqui]

It would be lots easier if the preselected paths weren't (seemingly) intentionally messed up. I haven't been through all of them in detail, but from the ones I have looked at closely I honestly can't think of one that does not have some obvious and not really arguable flaw.

[Hauteclaire]

this game is too hard in terms of building for me (gameplay is easy.) I've been trying to understand these things for 3 weeks and I can do things in life several times more complicated then this game, so I don't get it. It's just hard. People try to help me but seems everyone is too busy to explain things or disappears after I ask a few questions. A lot of people assume I know what they are talking about, but I just don't and I've tried to explain myself. It would be great to find a friend in this game that also uses XFire (instead of archaic forms of chat) and genuinely likes to help others and can be patient so maybe the game could be understood and played. I'm more of an artist than a math professor and I still don't understand these builds. It's ironic because I come to this game to have fun, I work on games as my real life profession yet I can't make sense of half the stuff in this game.

If anyone actually wants to help please message me. I won't be returning to this thread. I pray you use XFire too. It's just easier. This game could be awesome but without a "mentor" to help me out with building things I want to play and really hearing what I am asking, I don't think it's playable for me... and that is a shame. I really thought this game was great when actually playing, but I don't make characters to find out I'm messing up a build. In all 20-30+ mmos I have played I always like everything preplanned.

and I don't want to play a pure class. I can see how that works. I generally like to solo. so don't suggest that. I know it's possible to solo i probably watched over 200 hours of youtube videos from last year to just yesterday before I decided on this game.

[KKDragonLord]

Points for finally openly asking for help on the forums.

Here people aren't engaged in actually playing and therefore are much more inclined to spend their free time to explain things. Also, your questions can be seen by several people willing to post about it and its a lot easier to show links to other threads where your questions might have been answered.

If you really want help, why are you saying you wont "come back" to the thread? you really want to have a one on one conversation instead of getting help from everyone? and why do you want other people to use another program for "chatting" when practically everyone else feels just fine using the in-game chat.

And i think build questions aren't really a "chat" type of thing, it would take longer to try to explain by voice than to do it with writing i think.

my suggestion is this.
1 Pick a class or role you would like your character to perform
2 go to the build section in the forums and start a thread called: New Player, need Help building a XXXX
3 ???
4 Profit!

[magnefique]

Just gotta point out that this is what sets the game apart from most mmos out there and its a good thing in the end.

Stick to a pure class and you wont go (too) wrong, its what i always say.

Turbine needs to make character customization more accessible ( not watered down ) with . . .

1. easier respecing - the UI is terrible and having to "think your character out 1-20" is too much for the average gamer

2. Feats - no waiting 3 days for feat respecs

3. enhancement UI - ( no 3 day wait ), should be easy to do - with points spent pre-requisites not having you to spend some, accept then spend more. Note cost is fine in my opinion.

4. Enhancement UI - You should be able to look at all your enhancement options, dependencies relevant to your character level choices and play with them AND see the results of your character stats/abilities without saving.

DDO is a Sandboxer's game ( from a character perspective ) but the Sandbox is not forgiving at all and downright painful to play in.

[magnefique]

Character re-speccing is DDO's worst feature, in my opinion.

Here's what I hear a lot in this forum: "Your first character is a practice character. Level him up until you know why he sucks, and then re-roll your real character."

Guild Wars was brought up earlier in this thread. While that game certainly has its issues, one of its biggest successful features is instant free re-speccing (while in a town). In a nutshell, you can run through a new adventure and fail. You can then look at your build, tweak it in town, and try the adventure again. If your build turns out to be improved, you can save it, and call it up again later. Throughout the game, a character will develop a list of builds, each with a different focus. The player can use the best build for any given situation.

This has many benefits:

1. It encourages both experimentation and learning. A new player can build the equivalent of a Wiz/Sor/War, and once it becomes evident why the build doesn't work, he can change it around and try again. When a vet gives him advice, he can apply it to his existing character, instead of filing it away for some "real" character down the line.

2. It helps future-proof characters for the changes inevitable in MMO's. How many players do I hear on this forum complaining that game updates have gimped their previously viable characters? With a system like GW's, this is not an issue.

3. It allows the devs freedom to make dungeons that require higher specializations. A dungeon can be made with a deadly trap that requires a trapmonkey to disarm, and a Rogue doesn't have to build a character that is gimped everywhere but that dungeon. He can use his trapmonkey build in that dungeon, and switch back to a different build for the next.

It's not an "easy button" issue. It's an issue of letting players learn the game as they play, rather than having them learn the game before they can play for real. The fact that Turbine added re-speccing options and them made them moneymaking items rather than free features is really sad. Especially for long time players with a stable of gimped characters.

I agree with quite a bit of what you said here. that said, I am not so opposed to cost, but a better UI and toolset to respeC characters would likely help a TON with player retention.

[voodoogroves]

I miss Bacab - think he'll come back from the dead too?

;-)

[Jsbeer]

It would be lots easier if the preselected paths weren't (seemingly) intentionally messed up. I haven't been through all of them in detail, but from the ones I have looked at closely I honestly can't think of one that does not have some obvious and not really arguable flaw.

Turbine needs to make character customization more accessible ( not watered down ) with . . .

1. easier respecing - the UI is terrible and having to "think your character out 1-20" is too much for the average gamer

2. Feats - no waiting 3 days for feat respecs

3. enhancement UI - ( no 3 day wait ), should be easy to do - with points spent pre-requisites not having you to spend some, accept then spend more. Note cost is fine in my opinion.

4. Enhancement UI - You should be able to look at all your enhancement options, dependencies relevant to your character level choices and play with them AND see the results of your character stats/abilities without saving.

DDO is a Sandboxer's game ( from a character perspective ) but the Sandbox is not forgiving at all and downright painful to play in.

In a nutshell these are key points I think. First, why are the starter builds so comically bad? Honestly, my first build after a couple of hours research on the forums was better than any of the available paths at character creation. A little effort here would be amazingly helpful for new players. (The cynic in me feels that turbine can't possibly be that clueless on this issue and the paid re-speccing options is the only reason I can think of.)

Second, given how bad the default build options are then easier and faster (perhaps not cheaper - Turbine has to earn money after all) ways of rapidly changing feats and skill points would be nice.

[Solmage]

Or all in all it´s the "metagaming" that is required in many parts of the game.
For me, it takes a lot of fun out of the game, when I am required to read about what will happen at what point in a quest. For example, you can´t do "Church and the cult" if you don´t know that the endboss is a vampire and how to beat him.

Actually... you can. But it requires that you bring in a few at level good characters with good equipment, or one very good character.

But see, this is exactly what the OP is talking about. You want to play around and create unplayable gimps for the first 20 chars you roll, that's cool. Whatever floats your boat. But then you'll then blame the quest as being too hard because you can't beat it "without prior knowledge" - I assure you my paladin, barbarian or sorcerer would need no such prior knowledge, they'd just kick it's behind.

I have a question for you: If the custom char thing was disabled, the standard builds improved to be actually good, and you DIDNT have any customization options unless you were an expert, would this make the game better for you? You seem to imply it's the meta-gaming's fault, instead of your own, so I'm genuinely interested in the answer.

[Solmage]

(The cynic in me feels that turbine can't possibly be that clueless on this issue[...])

Yes, they are. This is why they continuously make horrendous decisions that everyone that's a vet can only /facepalm about, and then, 6months to 2 years later, they realize that oops, yeah, maybe that wasn't such a good idea, after they analyze data.

The other unfortunate side effect is their inability/capacity/willingness to simply go back and remove what they messed up, so instead they tweak/change something ELSE to compensate for it - as if changing the stuff to the way it was would get them fired or something - and oftentimes mess up something else entirely, which will require another band-aid somewhere else, etc etc.

Re: character builds, only took them a few years to finally accept our feedback, here's some of the results in the 101 guides: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Categ...Turbine_Guides . But no, I'm not holding my breath on them changing the ACTUAL problem, the existing templates.

[Vordax]

I agree with quite a bit of what you said here. that said, I am not so opposed to cost, but a better UI and toolset to respeC characters would likely help a TON with player retention.

You do know that you are replying to a 2 year old post, right?

Vordax

[Zachski]

Jumping on the undead horse here...

Quite frankly, when I first started playing DDO, I read about the fact that like-typed bonuses don't stack with themselves, and... it STILL took a good week to set in (with frequent self-corrections), because I was still so used to every other game allowing stacking bonuses.

The pre-set classes are horrible and newbie-unfriendly. While they shouldn't be optimized, they should be easy to play.

And finally, people who scoff at making the game more "newbie-friendly" are part of the problem, not the solution. Making mistakes is a way to learn, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll learn the correct solution and not a flawed workaround that'll cause MORE problems in the future.

Not to mention, it helps if you can have someone explain to you what the mistake you made is, exactly. (I remember one post on these forums where someone mentioned that, on their capped character, they didn't even know what fortification was until they asked why they were dying so much, because no one had taken the time to explain that it exists.)

And if you don't have a lot of money, respeccing essentially means starting completely over, in some cases. Now, imagine getting to level 15 and finding out that your 6-str 24-dex Rogue needs a lot more strength in order to succeed? And that you don't have access to a lesser heart to fix that?

It's hard to learn from mistakes when they are extremely expensive in either time or money.

Heck, even level 5 is an investment, depending on how much time and energy each day you can dedicate to DDO.

I did the research, but then, I spend more time researching than I actually do playing the game. (I've still gotta get around to rolling that wizard I asked for help for...) I don't want that to be other players. I want them to actually play the game. I want them to actually play the game.