9Monk/11Cleric ? stop me if I'm doing a mistake

[MystDragon]

The actual problem with your build is it lacks focus. The build looks like it really doesn't know what it wants to do.

Is that blend, class-wise feasible? Very. I currently have a cleric monk, level 16 who's end split will be cleric 11 / monk 9 who was created to test out in actual gameplay blending the synergy between the 2 classes.

But he is NOT a healer. He is designed as a melee combatant who can aid the healer if necessary. His clerical spells are used to insulate himself and augment his monk abilities. He is - in essence - a Holy Monk - and has been a blast to play. The best solo character I've had yet. And he has not been a detriment to his parties, either. The biggest problem I've had with him is the same problem all of my pure monk guildies have - even the level 20's - the lack of really good high level handwraps.

The build was designed by Lifespawn in the request a build threads:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218341

He holds his own with the melee members of the party and is able to turn and augment healing in an emergency situation, as well. He has served as the party's only cleric in Vale quests, successfully - using more resources than a full cleric would have because he's not designed that way.

Will you be able to serve as a party's cleric with this split? In an emergency, yes - but it's not what it is designed for and doesn't hold a candle to the party's cleric/FvS healer in that regards.

Now like many builds that are more complicated to play - I don't recommend it for just starting out. For a newer player I would recommend a pure build. If you want to be a cleric - play a full cleric. You'll get an excellent understanding of healing and the divine spells available to divine casters. My first character was a cleric.

Again - at the risk of being burned at the stake - this build is designed as a melee combatant and can do a **** fine job as such.

[Seliana]

Before you light the fires and begin the flaming me: I'm not recommending this build to anyone, and especially not a new player, but it is also not as gimp as you all seem to be convinced of...

Invalid Target
Elven - Monk 9 / Cleric 11
34 Point - True Reincarnated

30 STR (17base +6item +2tome +4level +1Litany)
26 DEX (13base +6item +2tome +2ElfEnh +2race +1Litany)
24 CON (16base +6item +2tome +1level -2race +1Litany)
12 INT (10base +1tome +1Litany)
22 WIS (12base +6item +1tome +2ClerEnh +1Litany)
10 CHA (08base +1tome +1Litany)


First lets check what I lost out on:

What do you gain from monk10-20?
+5.5 base damage
+5% attack speed from wind stance~4.5 damage/swing counting high
higher tier elemental strikes~4.5 damage/swing counting high
movement speed+abundant step
damage resistance
fluff
trash killing efficiency through qp/sb

Ok, so what did I chose to take?


Hit Points:

72: Monk 9
88: Cleric 11
140: Con Mod
20: Toughness
20: Heroic Durability
10: Draconic Vitality
30: Greater False Life
45: Greensteel +45 HP
40: Racial Toughness IV

465 HP

=============================
Feats:

Monk1 Power Attack - Str 13
Monk2 Toughness
Monk6 Monk Past Life Feat - 2d6+1 Base Damage

Lv1 Two Weapon Fighting
Lv3 Empower Healing
Lv6 Least DragonMark - Invis
Lv9 Greater DragonMark - Displacement
lv12 Improved Two Weapon Fighting - 6 BAB 17 Dex
lv15 Extend Spell - Extend those displacements for 4 min each
lv18 Greater Two Weapon Fighting - 11 BAB 17 Dex

Class Feats:

Wholeness of Body
Improved Evasion
Slow Fall 3
Fast Movement 3
Still Mind +2 Will saves
Centered AC +2

=============================
Saves:

Fort/ Ref/ Will
6/ 6/ 6 Monk
7/ 3/ 7 Cleric
7/ 7/ 6 stats
3/ 3/ 3 Nightshield
4/ 4/ 4 GH Clicky

Fort: 26
Ref: 22
Will: 25

=============================
Gear:

Eyes: Tharne's Goggles - +5hit +8damage +Truesight +15spot +15search
Head: Beacon of Tira - Sup Devotion+Combustion VI
Neck: Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II - SP Regen
Trinket: Litany of the Dead
Cloak: Greensteel Cloak With +45 hp, +1 Str Skills, +5 Con Skills, Concordant Opposition
Wrists: Bracers of the Demon's Consort - DQ Raid
Feet: Greensteel Boots With Wizardry VI, +1 Int Skills, +150 sp, +5 Cha Skills - +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, +10 Haggle - Concordant Opposition
Hands: Epic Spectral Gloves - +4 to hit, Ethereal
Belt: Electric Haze - +GFL +100 fort
Ring: ToD Ring - Holy Burst Fists +6 Con +1Cha
Ring: ToD Ring - Shocking Burst Fists +6 Str +1Con

=============================
Enhancements:

Cleric Life Magic 4
Wind Stance 2
Racial Toughness 4
Monk Imp Recovery 2
Monk Tenacious Badger 2
Cleric Healing Critical 2
Cleric SP 2
Monk Wisdom 2
Static Charge
Porous Soul
Winters Touch
All Consuming Flame
Touch of Death
Elven Extra DragonMarks 4

=============================

So what did all that get me?

Heal Spell:

Base + Mods
100% Heal Spell
+50% Empower Healing
+50% Devotion
+40% Life Magic Enh 1/4/7/10
+20% Monk 3/7

+160% Modded Healing to Self

11x10+100=210 * 160% = 336 Empowered Self-Heal

So I can heal for 85% of my HP bar for 45/2300 SP, and I'm only responsible for just healing myself because I'm a melee build. I'm only taking half the damage because I can afford to have displacement on at all times in between shrines? Oh yes people! We have found Sucktitude! It's right here!

=============================

Well surely I'll have no sp?

405 base
70 Cleric enhancement
80 magical training
120 from 22 WIS
150 Wiz 6
150 Greensteel Goggles

300 Mysterious Bauble
1200 Epic Ring of Spell Storing
25 Archivists Necklace
------------------------
975 SP + 1325 clickies

2300 Total SP per Rest Shrine <- I sure hope my 17556 HP lasts to that next shrine!

=============================

Well yeah, but you cant deal damage like that....right?

Damage / DPS:

2d6+1 base - Monk Past-life Base Damage
2d6 ToD1 - Holy Burst Tower of Despair Ring
1d6 ToD2 - Shocking Burst Tower of Despair Ring
2d6 Holy - +4 Holy of Greater Bane Handwraps
3d6 Greater Bane - +4 Holy of Greater Bane Handwraps
1d6 Frost - Icy Upgrade on Handwraps
10 Strength - 30 Strength Damage Bonus
5 Power Attack - Power Attack Feat
3 Divine Power - Cleric Spell, Not that I even have to cast it to dps.
4 Handwraps - +4 Holy of Greater Bane Handwraps
8 Sneak attack - Tharne's Goggles
(Add +8 for comparison with the DPS chart using Prayer and the old Inspire Competence from a Bard)

Using a +4 Holy of Greater Bane of Icy Burst Handwraps = 11d6+31 = 69.5 Damage per strike
Using a +2 Devout Handwraps 6d6+29 = 50 Damage per strike
Using a +4 Flaming Burst of Icy Burst of Weighted 5% Handwraps 2(2d6+31)+5d6 = 93 Damage per AutoCrit

+500 Damage every 15 seconds from Touch of Death, which is around 17.5 damage per attack spread out over 114 attacks per minute unbuffed.

So what does that mean exactly?

Well since we are comparing DPS here I'll go ahead and add 1 for Prayer, and 7 for Inspire competence to every hit as per this chart: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906


When forced to Bypass Damage Reductions for any reason I'm hitting for 76 Damage x 114 Attacks + 2000 Four Touch of Deaths / 60 seconds = 177.7 DPS

When fighting 100% Fortification I'm doing around 95 x 114 + 2000 / 60 = 213.8 Average DPS.

And on 0% Fortification Trash I'm doing 101 x 114 + 2000 / 60 = 225.2 Average DPS.

Yeah, It's not the perfect max dps Tempest-Warforged-Kopesh-Frenzied-Berzerker-Monster-Exploiter, though how many of those are really in your everyday pug? This build is not as fragile as a standard melee dps build either. One of a Monk's main strengths in a group is survival, and this idea capitalizes on that with fairly small sacrifice in DPS compared to other level 20 Monks. The important thing here is it doesn't have to rely on another player in order to function. It's a fun solo build that also works fairly well in a party or raid.

You shouldn't see this as dragging your group down and forcing them to carry you with your lack of contribution, This build offers different things to the group such as enabling automatic critical's via Weighted Handwraps for the other melee, offers decent damage that isn't also drain on the clerics SP bars when you get hit, it could even support heal the other melee if you wanted as well.

[Impaqt]

Stunned....


I dont know if I should be terrified or saddened right now.

[phalaeo]

Before you light the fires and begin the flaming me: I'm not recommending this build to anyone, and especially not a new player, but it is also not as gimp as you all seem to be convinced of...

Seeing a build like you have posted all geared out *does* make me rethink the build in general.

It's still my opinion that any almost even Cleric/Monk split like that takes tremendous planning, extensive gearing, and requires more than a 32 pt. build. All the better if it's a TR and you have the gear already in your cache. Although I did not express this in my previous posts, I maintain the opinion that it would be very difficult to get groups out of guild unless you have an extensive friend list populated with players confident in your skills.

[gavagai]

Feats:

Monk1 Power Attack - Str 13
Monk2 Toughness
Monk6 Monk Past Life Feat - 2d6+1 Base Damage

Lv1 Two Weapon Fighting
Lv3 Empower Healing
Lv6 Least DragonMark - Invis
Lv9 Greater DragonMark - Displacement
lv12 Improved Two Weapon Fighting - 6 BAB 17 Dex
lv15 Extend Spell - Extend those displacements for 4 min each
lv18 Greater Two Weapon Fighting - 11 BAB 17 Dex

Looks like a fun build overall. The only thing I'm hesitant about is spending 3 feats for extended Displacements on a build without Improved Crit: Bludgeon. Since your full 20 levels will count for Displacement duration, maybe its best to skip Extend and take IC?

[zealous]

yes, a 11Cleric/9 Monk ming get +'s from things like DP and DF.. but so does an 18Cleric/2 Monk.

Everything level 3-9 monk gives ya is eclipsed and more in Cleric levels 12-18

One might think so if one consider the split as a cleric with monk levels, focusing on the loss of spellcasting, as opposed to looking at it as a monk with cleric levels, focusing on the loss of damage output/fluff.

Cleric 18 and 11 both get the same DF.
Cleric 18 does have the possibility to gain +4 damage from divine might, that would require a substantial investment into cha though. Also, due to the activation time you would not gain the full benefit in a non-trivial encounter.

Monk 3-9 on the other hands gives you some 4ish damage from higher tier wind stance + strikes as well as an increased base damage of 2.

Thus even if you don't count the ~7.5+ damage/attack from ToD the monk levels do give a greater DPS benefit than the additional cleric levels.

Well since we are comparing DPS here I'll go ahead and add 1 for Prayer, and 7 for Inspire competence to every hit as per this chart: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906

Actually that chart is a bit outdated, this one is a bit more up to date, do take note that those numbers are for long fights with deductions made for activation times and the unfairness of comparing a +4 holy frost greater bane to a "simple" minII.

Also you should add +9 for song, +2 for each ring (shintao/FB) as well as +4 for greater bane increasing base damage.

One might also consider hot swapping oremis to get ki for more than ToD.

114 Attacks

And that the speed you're using probably is animations and not attacks, you get 2 attacks/animation.

Also, 114 animations is probably counting low.

and we start over....
Madstoned Unarmed
BAB 20: 122

Madstone + windstance 4 Unarmed
BAB 20: 132

It's not the perfect max dps Tempest-Warforged-Kopesh-Frenzied-Berzerker-Monster-Exploiter, it's probably not all that far off though.

[Lasulie]

ok Mr "I joined Feb 2010"...you are right and we ALL are wrong.

Build it...prove us wrong.

I DO think YOU could have fun with this build...but it is a weak build and you will not be able to get into parties past lvl 14ish (Gianthold this **** may fly) but not past it.

Also if you are spamming DP and DF you will not have enough SP for healing anyone other than yourself.

You are the one who posted looking for advice. You got advice...now you don't like the advice so you try to argue with us.

Oh BTW BRD have this neat ability called Inspire Courage. It helps everyone. They also get this ability called Ironskin Chant (Warchanter of course). A BRD would bring so much more to the party than this build.

If you want to punch things, go MNK.

Though I DO think maybe a MNK/PLD build could maybe fit what you are after.

You would get Lay on hands for healing and Have some really nice saves.

Totally up to you though...but like I said, don't post it unless you are willing to listen to advice. Or if you are super intent on building this...just plan on soloing a lot. With Casual you will be just fine. Just do not expect to do raids, or to do anything but pike in raids.

I didnt mean to argue I just wanted facts, every post prior to the one you quoted where giving me vague reasons not to adopt the build no numbers at all.

[gavagai]

I didnt mean to argue I just wanted facts, every post prior to the one you quoted where giving me vague reasons not to adopt the build no numbers at all.

I think whatever the numbers look like at level 20, a Monk 9 / Cleric 11 will be very challenging for a new player to level. You will be playing high level quests with skills and abilities of a lower level monk and Cleric.

If you follow your original template (taking monk levels first) you won't get Divine Favor to +3/+3 until level 18 and Heal until level 20. By level 20 Heal is an underwhelming achievement (most builds will UMD scrolls), while monks with endless ki, GM stances, and 10/Epic DR will be plentiful.

If you take Monk 1, Cleric 11, then Monk 2-9 (IMO a better plan), you'll be spending 12 levels with a build that will function like a cleric with too little Wisdom to cast offensively, and still relatively poor DPS with 1d6 20/x2 punches. But at least you have all the utility from those cleric levels to bring to groups, and from there steadily improve your melee.

My only concern is that, given how long it takes to level a first character to 20, you may not enjoy having such a specialized character with such late payoff.

But that's not to say you shouldn't try it or you won't enjoy it. Even if you don't like it, it's only a "mistake" if you don't take anything good from the experience .

[Seliana]

Seeing a build like you have posted all geared out *does* make me rethink the build in general.

It's still my opinion that any almost even Cleric/Monk split like that takes tremendous planning, extensive gearing, and requires more than a 32 pt. build. All the better if it's a TR and you have the gear already in your cache. Although I did not express this in my previous posts, I maintain the opinion that it would be very difficult to get groups out of guild unless you have an extensive friend list populated with players confident in your skills.

Id like to add on here for any newer players reading on the build I posted that it is my opinion that Phalaeo is absolutely right regarding this. I really would ask our new players that you not make such a build without extensive considerations for difficulty and at least playing through 20 levels as a monk first to learn the game. My build requires extremely extensive planning, a 34 point TR, and probably functions about 1/3rd as well without all of the gear I've listed above which most of which will be very hard to get for a new player. I built it with the expectation that I may have to solo my way to 20, and I am prepared to do so. Furthermore I enable my build to work via an extensive friends list and reputation I cultivated over my first 20 levels as well as being part of one of the best guilds on Cannith.

Looks like a fun build overall. The only thing I'm hesitant about is spending 3 feats for extended Displacements on a build without Improved Crit: Bludgeon. Since your full 20 levels will count for Displacement duration, maybe its best to skip Extend and take IC?

I agree that this would also work very well if you would like to focus on additional damage instead of defense. Either way would function, though I believe having extend on displacement might have a greater effect in helping level up on the way 20. Improved Crit would certainly go a ways to helping close the DPS gap.

These are all great suggestions and information everyone, I was really expecting nerd-rage to descend on me...

[Bacab]

Seliana, your toon looks strong, but it certainly is not a "standard toon". It is geared to the teeth and a TRed toon. I just do not see this working as a first build and certainly not as a 28 pt build. I do think it could be fun. But it would be one of those things most people make and then get bored at lvl 10ish and decide to Re-roll.

The OP seems to want to be able "to do everything" I really think maybe 15BRD/3ROG/2FTR would be a fun build for him/her. I am currently running one of those and hes a blast. Can heal/melee/trapmonkey. Also to the OP sorry to be judgemental towards you. It's just tiring seeing the same post over and over again.

It is typically:
Hi, I am a new player...with 28 pt build or drow (which makes them think they know what they are doing)...started playing 2 weeks ago. I want to nuke and heal so here is my build 11 Favored Soul/5 SOR / 4 Wizard. Notice that this build lacks heal/blade barrier and haste/fireball from the arcane side. It also has a job that you can buy (FVS) or earn with 2500 favor. Well this is where I get confused. If you want to buy FVS, thats fine and cool, but also buy 32 pt build. If you do not want to buy FVS...well you will earn 32 pt build BEFORE you earn FVS.

But long story short, what you get is really broken build that can not do anything at all. So then there are posts made (by vets) that such build will not work...so then the poster then says "what if I have 6 months worth of greensteel items and 50 mill worth of other assorted gear and extremely rare raid drops...it will THEN work (see Seliana's 11CLR/9MNK). Well if you have those resources and skill...then YOU can make such a build work. But you are then sucessful INSPITE of your build...not BECAUSE of your build. Another fun thing to see is the typical build with 6 +4 tomes and extremely rare gear AND then it has to be a TRed twice toon...to work.

I could see Shade, ANthios, MaddMatt etc... running a SOR with 16 Total CHR and meleeing stuff and due to their Resources and skill...They could make it work. But such things are not recommended to "new players".

I played this game when it first came out, and then took like a 2 year break...then came back. It saddens me to see people (new players) make broken builds then complain to Turbine that the "GAME IS TOO HARD" since thier toon can not complete anything. Then Turbine rewards the "Froob" with an "easy button".

It just is hard for me to stomach this and watch the best MMO out there (have played most of them) get ruined by people unwilling to listen/learn from more experienced people.

[Razcar]

you can also pick the healers dragonmarks on halfling 20 monk.

Yes this is much better if you want to be able to cast Heal on your monk. Take UMD as well and you could use wands and scrolls. Put in 1 or 2 rogue levels for higher UMD, for stoneskin wands/resist wands/displacement scrolls etc.

[zealous]

Yes this is much better if you want to be able to cast Heal on your monk. Take UMD as well and you could use wands and scrolls. Put in 1 or 2 rogue levels for higher UMD, for stoneskin wands/resist wands/displacement scrolls etc.

That's what I initially thought too, since I didn't consider the epic ring of spell storing. That ring basicly doubles the available spell points making those cleric levels worth ~"twice" as much. It's actually a really good split and a open ended template.

Twf chain, monk feats(can you take past life feats as extra monk feats btw?) are given. That still leaves some 4 "wobble" feats, i.e. feats you can change to get a different spec.

Empower healing might be a given.
Could go halfling and get full dragonmarks.
Can get max,emp and quicken for better mass healing.
Room for I.crit, CE, Stunning blow etc.
Could even go entirely off the norm, skip emp healing and fit in WF:ranged, PB and rapid+manyshot or prec.shot+imp.prec for AA.


Even if you go for full healing spec, one of theses unorthodox abominations wouldn't be up to par to a proper "hjeeler". However, 3 unorthodox abominations might actually be better than 1 barb and 2 "walking shrines" for e.g. shroud.

As stated by others, it's a very backloaded template. I.e. it'll be fairly gimped til lvl20. Also, you pretty much need the ring of epic spell storing and preferably ToD rings to function properly so more of a second or third TR than a "fresh of the boat" template.

[Bacab]

I do have to ask...
Seliana is this character made already? Or is this a plan to make? Do you have all that stuff already? Or planning on getting it?

[Atenhotep]

1200 Epic Ring of Spell Storing

As the Skipper (from Gilligan's Island) might ask ..

"Do you have an Epic Spell Storing Ring little Buddy?"

And keep in mind, if you are counting in clickies then you realize others have those same clickies which means you still are gonna be a frequent shopper at the DDO store.

In any case, if you didn't want the honest truth you shouldn't have asked.

/Just sayin

[Bacab]

can you have a ring of spell storing AND a mysterious Bauble? Are'nt they both exclusive (meaning you can only have one) or does that mean you can only have one bauble and one ring?

[Atenhotep]

can you have a ring of spell storing AND a mysterious Bauble? Are'nt they both exclusive (meaning you can only have one) or does that mean you can only have one bauble and one ring?

You can. Exclusive means only one of that specific item.

Epic ring + Bauble + Korthos clickie + Torc + Shroud CO item .. you're doing great.

But the amount of grind you do to get all that and the mana you burn in that journey .. well ... you better be playing non stop for a few years after you gear up to see the payback.

[zealous]

As the Skipper (from Gilligan's Island) might ask ..

"Do you have an Epic Spell Storing Ring little Buddy?"

And keep in mind, if you are counting in clickies then you realize others have those same clickies which means you still are gonna be a frequent shopper at the DDO store.

In any case, if you didn't want the honest truth you shouldn't have asked.

/Just sayin

For the same reason that you paraphrase gilligan's island, you having the clickies doesn't necessary mean that everyone else have it. And still, even if both have it, the existance of said item changes the relative sizes of spell points.

Level 18 cleric: 930
38 wis: 406

Level 11 cleric: 405
22 wis: 120

Not so rare items + Enhancements+stuff:775

(405+120+775)/(930+406+775)=1300/2111=0.62
(1300+1200)/2111=1.18
(1300+1200)/(2111+1200)=0.76

Add the eardweller too and keep in mind that most content will(should) be balanced for the general population of have-nots.

[Anderei]

Bottom line, you need epic gear to be just as good as not-have with a sane build?

[Seliana]

I do have to ask...
Seliana is this character made already? Or is this a plan to make? Do you have all that stuff already? Or planning on getting it?

You make very valid points Bacab. I dont want to see any newer players coming in thinking my build will work for them and they really are better off not trying to skip past playing through a much more standard build in order to learn the game as well as accumulate gear and wealth. The point I was looking to make to the OP and rather to the community as well is: The concept is sound in nature but making it function takes a lot of hard effort and fantastic gear and it is not something a new player should be considering at all. The OP is much better off trying one of the many other builds suggested to start such as a 18 favored / 2 monk or a 15 bard / 3 rogue / 2 fighter.

I went into my TR after leveling a Monk 20 first with the Tharne's, Beacon, Spectral Gloves, Icy Raiments, Armor +8 Bracers, Dragontouched Robe, Spellstoring Ring, Oremi's Necklace, About 30+ high and low level handwraps all twinked with the icy recipe, the Devout Handwraps, Multiples of every ML 18 item from Shavarath, gear for just about every level jammed into my reincarnation bank, and the Electric Haze. I also prefarmed shroud to have the most of ingredients to make the cloak and boots on my alt's as well for when I reach that level. When I reach the appropriate level I'll still need to farm out a Bauble, Litany, Tower of Despair rings, Torc, and Bracers of the Demon's Consort if I decide to use those instead of the +8 Armor. Later on at 20 I'll need to eventually get the Spectral Gloves and Spellstoring ring turned Epic as well. I may also decide to farm the Eardweller too later on in Dreaming Dark.

The build is live on Cannith currently as a 8 Cleric / 2 Monk, I am finishing cleric levels to 11 first before adding any additional monk. So far I have been doing fantastic in groups however, Just making sure the party realizes that I am not their primary healer goes a long way to helping this build function as it levels up, I am also leading killcounts fairly easily on pug groups so far using the best gear available for my level. I probably could have grinded out more stuff before my TR but I tend to be fairly impatient and wanted to get started on leveling it up right away.

[Bacab]

Bottom line, you need epic gear to be just as good as not-have with a sane build?

this is what I was getting to...

all that gear and time (TRed and Tomes) onto a "normal" build would crush the 11CLR/9MNK build. As in a 20 FVS or 20 CLR would be way better at healing than the 11/9. Or a 20 Barb RNG FTR (or DPS build of any kind) would crush the 11/9 build. Or heck even a 20 BRD or a 15/2/3 BRD Axesinger would DPS and have those handy songs and UMD and SP and stuff.

Play what you like...but you may be playing alone. Also for Seliana's build to come to fruition...it took a TON of planning and work (Kudos to you)