Revisiting paths: Builds for new players

[tihocan]

You need to redo Master Mechanic to account for the fact it is now a ranged combat prestige, and significantly more useful than before.

Yes.

[ReaperAlexEU]

Yes.

i have a lvl18 mechanic and he's been tons of fun to play, so please allow me to give you his template to help get the ball rolling

halfling lvl20 rogue:

str 10
dex 17
con 12
int 16
wis 8
cha 10 (14 on 32 pt)

10 STR is about as low as you want to go on a halfling for loot hauling reasons. if you are overburdened evasion switches off.

dex is high and aimed at rounding off with 5 level ups and no exceptional items

con is as low as you'd dare take it, but with proper damage avoidance it works well

int is high to help with the xbow damage

wis is dumped to make room for the other stats

cha gets any free points to help with UMD. its nice to be able to get a decent success rate on a raise dead scroll as early as you can.

1 point blank shot
3 exotic: heavy repeater (swap to rapid reload at lvl12)
6 precise shot
9 toughness
12 imp crit: ranged
15 imp precise shot
18 rapid shot

regular xbows are very hard to level up with, so taking the heavy repeater at lvl3 makes life much easier. at lvl6 you get light repeater, then at lvl12 you get heavy repeater which allows you to drop the feat. having the choice of both repeaters from lvl6 makes shopping much easier.

i took precise shot before toughness as i preferred to avoid getting excessive aggro via game play, and precise shot helped me keep my shots focused on my target. others may prefer the HP boost earlier instead.

enhancements are very flexible, focus on unlocking mechanic first, then work on the rogue sneak attack bonuses. avoid the haste boost and smites as they are melee only.

soloability is poor as the low DPS (no sneak attacks) really comes into affect. in a party however the DPS is great (lots of sneak attacks) and with a good xbow you can really make a difference to the party. lvl15 is a very nice level as you can then pick an anchor target, and move about to line all the monsters up, pair that with a paralyser which should be more than affordable by lvl14 and you have a great combination of DPS and CC.

i've not found the need to melee on him, but if you must do the chronoscope raid and get the staff which is +dex to hit and +dex to damage, ie its better than weapon finesse and low str

other races could probably dump str as they dont have a 3/4 carrying capacity. i've not given that too much thought as i was rebuilding a much loved character from the EU servers.

[karl_k0ch]

halfling lvl20 rogue:

con is as low as you'd dare take it, but with proper damage avoidance it works well

I am not so sure if it is the best idea to point new players to a 12-con-pew-pew-pew-only-rogue build. No offense, ReaperAlexEU, but I have the feeling that unexperienced players (without the proper gear) will not have a satisfying playing experience with this kind of build.

Imho, the current version of your Mechanic does quite well, also with the option to use repeaters. I would not forfeit melee abilities on a build for new players.
The current build is well-balanced: You have the full TWF chain, allowing the rogue to use the sneak attack bonus with both weapons. Since you are taking finesse, to-hit is not an issue with ranged and melee. The int is higher than the int of a typical rogue (giving some additional damage on ranged shots), but not that high that either con or str are hampered by this severely.
I like that the build includes the option (with tomes) to take PA.

[Gummi]

I am not so sure if it is the best idea to point new players to a 12-con-pew-pew-pew-only-rogue build. No offense, ReaperAlexEU, but I have the feeling that unexperienced players (without the proper gear) will not have a satisfying playing experience with this kind of build.

Imho, the current version of your Mechanic does quite well, also with the option to use repeaters. I would not forfeit melee abilities on a build for new players.
The current build is well-balanced: You have the full TWF chain, allowing the rogue to use the sneak attack bonus with both weapons. Since you are taking finesse, to-hit is not an issue with ranged and melee. The int is higher than the int of a typical rogue (giving some additional damage on ranged shots), but not that high that either con or str are hampered by this severely.
I like that the build includes the option (with tomes) to take PA.

i disagree really how can you say it have the option to use repeaters really? without at least either rapid shot or rapid reload your shooting speed gonna be horrible low and you need precise shot and imp. precise shot too AT LEAST to make it just somewhat decent ranged attack. without those 3/4 feats it not worth to ever use a repeater, and as it is ATM it just a gimped version of dark blade really. and as those 3/4 feast is min for a half-decent repeater usage there really is NO ROOM for making it good at melee as well without heavy multiclass which this thread generally doesn't do, only does a light multi class on some builds. the ONLY reason really to go mechanic is to use a repeater nothing else.

[karl_k0ch]

As Rapid Shot and PS and IPS require PBS, and you will most likely use one toughness feat and the IC: Ranged feat, there is not much room left to increase your melee abilities feat-wise.
I'm not saying that this will not be a viable build, but I would not advise such a build to new players. Just read tihocans notes to his AA build and try to subtract the melee part from it.

You can see the current mechanic build also in another way: You trade 3d6 SA dice and the sneak-vorpal ability for a good ranged damage option. Imho, you should still be primary a melee character.

[ReaperAlexEU]

yes, its a hard call. without the nice ranged feats it wont shine as a repeater build, with them it wont be able to melee.

the earnest is on the player to make the build work, easy for an FPS player, hard for a point and clicker.

and even with the high INT the rogue will still need to focus on items and buffs to get trap work done in tough quests. but then rogues are a hard class to play, and a squishy melee in the wrong hands will be more of a disaster than a squishy repeater build.

far from black and white, but it is play tested at least

[tihocan]

Imho, the current version of your Mechanic does quite well, also with the option to use repeaters. I would not forfeit melee abilities on a build for new players.
The current build is well-balanced: You have the full TWF chain, allowing the rogue to use the sneak attack bonus with both weapons. Since you are taking finesse, to-hit is not an issue with ranged and melee. The int is higher than the int of a typical rogue (giving some additional damage on ranged shots), but not that high that either con or str are hampered by this severely.
I like that the build includes the option (with tomes) to take PA.

That was basically my initial thought, but my main issue with this is it's too similar to the Dark Blade. I think I'd actually prefer to convert it into a repeater build. It may not be more efficient, but it will be more "different", thus offering more varied playstyle options.
It will probably come with a warning that explains that ranged combat is not as universally effective as melee

[Gummi]

You can see the current mechanic build also in another way: You trade 3d6 SA dice and the sneak-vorpal ability for a good ranged damage option. Imho, you should still be primary a melee character.

again you say good ranged option? hardly again i say a good throwing (maybe even returning) weapon on the dark blade build can be just as good really considering the amount of space it takes to have a proper amount of bolts as a repeater needs, those things eat bolts like candy.

@Tihocan: sound like a good option to me, abut try along with that warning be sure to mention in the tips about lining up targets (specially after you get IPS but even to some degree before as well (should one die you hit the one behind), can situationally give as good maybe even better dmg as a good melee build

[karl_k0ch]

again you say good ranged option? hardly again i say a good throwing (maybe even returning) weapon on the dark blade build can be just as good really considering the amount of space it takes to have a proper amount of bolts as a repeater needs, those things eat bolts like candy.

I don't think that a large amount of bolts fired by the weapon should be seen as a downside of using a weapon. In contrary, I value a high rate of fire.

If Ammo is a problem, you should get a Quiver. Maybe a Thin one for the house D patron.

[ReaperAlexEU]

lets look at this another way, what do newbie friendly builds have to achieve?

1: they need to be able to get to lvl20
2: epics are nice to have, but i'd not rate them as mandatory
3: they need to be fun to play
4: they cannot rely on tomes and other twinky gear to get to lvl20

now how does a ranged only mechanic fit that?

1: i'm at lvl18 and going strong, even without the twinking i can see this being a nice build to hit lvl20 with
2: traps should be fine, low DPS might be the biggest problem, especially when you cant milk imp precise shot. to hit should be fine.
3: very, very fun to play, and a nice contrasting play style to melee's and casters too, adding more play time to the game
4: i've twinked and tomed, but no feat needed the tomes for a pre-req and the twinking isnt a must have either.

so i think a ranged only mechanic has its place in the newbie builds sections. its a very different play style, its a lot of fun, and its open to newbies that can have a go at the more demanding play style.

as for the effectiveness of a good repeater mechanic, i did manage to rack up the most kills in madstone elite, and oddly enough that was with a group of power gamers. perversely i got less kills in the pugs i did, thats because i was able to focus more on hitting the most mobs and less on avoiding aggro thanks to having a very solid team to work with. i see that as a good example how the technically poor repeater DPS can actually be very effective when put into a real situation. that was with a paralyser, though i forget if i had that icy crafted at the time, either way it wasnt my best DPS weapon.

the build its self isnt gimped. sure it might not be the pinnacle of perfection, but its perfectly usable and lots of fun.

[Gummi]

I don't think that a large amount of bolts fired by the weapon should be seen as a downside of using a weapon. In contrary, I value a high rate of fire.

If Ammo is a problem, you should get a Quiver. Maybe a Thin one for the house D patron.

the thing is not so much about ammo space but the fact that a good throwing weapon will do as much DPS over time than a repeater without the ranged feats if you don't get at least rapid shot or rapid reload your repeater will fire 3 shots way faster than throwing true, but then you take 3 times or so as long to reload for next salve than you do with a throwing weapon, so a reaper without ranged feats will have a better burst damage than a throwing but over time the dmg will be roughly the same i bet, maybe slightly better but to so low extend it wont matter at all, + you wont have to up int more than what you need for your skills to get a good dmg mod on a throwing as you can use the str you prolly have a reasonable amount (or maybe as main stat) due to your melee focus.

Also a new player wont go seek out a repeater if he isn't specailly told to and told where he can get it, cause lets face it not that easy to get a repeater at lower lvl where throwing weapons or bows/arrows drops like candy usually.

[maverick75]

I have a question regarding your AA build. Is there a reason why start with a 15 str and not just a 14? Is there an advantage to starting the stat at an odd level instead of the even one?

[Gummi]

hmm i agree maverick seem odd to me as well when str isn't the main stat (it makes sense with an odd start in a main stat as you get 5 lvlup to spend in stat's making you at 20 end with a base equal (assuming no tomes or equal number tomes only). I assume you talking about the elf or drow version. Personally i would probably either drop str to 14 and boost con to 14 as well (why 13 con...) or the other way around drop con to 12 and boost str to 16.


That said i MIGHT have missed something, but i don't think so

[Rasczak]

hmm i agree maverick seem odd to me as well when str isn't the main stat (it makes sense with an odd start in a main str as you get 5 lvlup to spend in stat's making you at 20 end with a base equal (assuming no tomes or equal number tomes only). I assume you talking about the elf or drow version. Personally i would probably either drop str to 14 and boost con to 14 as well (why 13 con...) or the other way around drop con to 12 and boost str to 16.


That said i MIGHT have missed something, but i don't think so

ToD is what you are missing. +9 Stat items and +4 Tomes now mean you want to try and end up with odd stats in certain areas. Con being one, then Primary Stat as the other. Sometimes it also helps to have odd stats as you may want to rather spend those 6 AP's elsewhere that are used up for a Tier 3 class ability.

For instance, I'd rather put a build on 15 or 17 Str as the 3 build points could be more useful elsewhere on stat intensive classes. (Pallies, Monks etc) It all depends really.

In the past with only GS items and +3 tomes you didn't want to put str and con on your min 2 weapon or offhand weapon unless a caster/healer. Now that we have ToD rings and +4 Tomes to aim for it is sometimes better to plan ahead for them even if it takes you months to get hold of them

And then of course there is Litany of the Dead...+1 To All stats

[picaisfun]

Really nice job. I am going to show this to my nephew who just started playing. Thanks again.

[tihocan]

I have a question regarding your AA build. Is there a reason why start with a 15 str and not just a 14? Is there an advantage to starting the stat at an odd level instead of the even one?

Yes, it's +1.

There's basically no way you can tell whether +1 in a stat will be useful or not in the long term, because there are way too many different buffs / items you can acquire to boost it. However you can often find a way to make it useful by switching gear appropriately.

Anyway, you can go 14 Str / 14 Con if you like it better. It's a minor point, basically a chance at +1 dmg vs. a chance at +20 HPs

[maverick75]

ToD is what you are missing. +9 Stat items and +4 Tomes now mean you want to try and end up with odd stats in certain areas. Con being one, then Primary Stat as the other. Sometimes it also helps to have odd stats as you may want to rather spend those 6 AP's elsewhere that are used up for a Tier 3 class ability.

For instance, I'd rather put a build on 15 or 17 Str as the 3 build points could be more useful elsewhere on stat intensive classes. (Pallies, Monks etc) It all depends really.

In the past with only GS items and +3 tomes you didn't want to put str and con on your min 2 weapon or offhand weapon unless a caster/healer. Now that we have ToD rings and +4 Tomes to aim for it is sometimes better to plan ahead for them even if it takes you months to get hold of them

And then of course there is Litany of the Dead...+1 To All stats

Ok, so I'm brand new at this so forgive the possibly obvious questions, but what does TOD and GS stand for.

Also, are there any 'disadvantages' to using Tomes. I noticed there were some seemingly pretty nice Tomes for sale in the DDO store.

[maverick75]

Yes, it's +1.

There's basically no way you can tell whether +1 in a stat will be useful or not in the long term, because there are way too many different buffs / items you can acquire to boost it. However you can often find a way to make it useful by switching gear appropriately.

Anyway, you can go 14 Str / 14 Con if you like it better. It's a minor point, basically a chance at +1 dmg vs. a chance at +20 HPs

Actually, what I was more looking at was trying to bump up my wisdom from 10. Since unless I missed something else, right now at lvl 4, I only have 2 spell points which isn't enough to cast any spell. Was the build not meant to cast spells right away?

[Alektronic]

Wow, great post. I was just mulling over why noone had done this the other day before I stumbled upon this post actually. I love the narrative and prose, but quick question: why don't you also include a planner pasty for ease of reference while lvling? Is that alot of extra work?

[karl_k0ch]

Actually, what I was more looking at was trying to bump up my wisdom from 10. Since unless I missed something else, right now at lvl 4, I only have 2 spell points which isn't enough to cast any spell. Was the build not meant to cast spells right away?

While it might be a bit annoying not to be able to cast spells at this very moment, you have to think of this as a long-term investment.
With each level you reach, you will possibly spend more time at that level than at level 4. In the end, you will hopefully spend more time being level 20 than being level 4. Then the question is: What will give you a bigger benefit? Some more points in wisdom or 20 HP/+1 damage and +1 to hit?
The answer is in most cases: One of the latter two. This is a good thing, because it means that you can focus your build points and invest them into 3 key stats (Dex, Con, Str) and you do not need to spread those stats over 4 or even 5 stats, like monks or paladins have to.

Please note that 10 Wis is already considered to be a new-player-friendly stat choice. Most Rangers and Paladins even start with 8 wis (paladins have a similar spell progression as rangers, with the same 2 sp at level 4. those should be actually 5, but they never bothered to fix that.)

There are several possibilities to enhance your SP pool:
- a + X Wisdom item. (you will need a +1 wis item to cast level 1 spells, a +2 item for level 2 and so on. Usually, you should be able to get a +6 item around level 15.) The higher your wisdom, the more spell points you will get per level.
- a Power/Wizardry item. This adds a flat amount of SP.
- the mental toughness feat. This adds +5 to your SP and additional +5 for each level. You will pick up the feat at level 6, resulting in an immediate boost of +35 SP.

So, yes, this build was made not to cast spells right away, but you will soon be able to.

Ok, so I'm brand new at this so forgive the possibly obvious questions, but what does TOD and GS stand for.

Also, are there any 'disadvantages' to using Tomes. I noticed there were some seemingly pretty nice Tomes for sale in the DDO store.

The poster above is referring to items you get from quests which start around level 16 (The Shroud in the Vale of Twilight) and level 18 (the Tower of Despair, ToD).
Both are raids which have very nice end rewards. ToD has specific item sets tailored to certain prestige enhancements and the Shroud has Green Steel Items (often referred to as GS). These Green Steel items are not lootable like in other quests, but the you can get crafting materials in the quests which can be combined to a huge array of weapons and other items. The "min 2 weapon" is one popular crafting recipe from the shroud.

Tomes have no downside, besides being costly (TP/cash or plat). If you use a tome, only the highest value in each stat will be applied, i.e. a +1 tome combined with a +2 tome will only yield +2.