Revisiting paths: Builds for new players

[tihocan]

kurglar: I don't really have time to look into these builds in details, but I played a kind of similar build so here are my comments:
1. You need max UMD for seal-heal Your Int is probably too low to get trap skills, so drop those. If you want traps, go THF instead of TWF and drop Dex to boost Int, taking Insightful Reflexes (it also avoids wasting a level-up on Dex).
2. You really want Kensai II to be able to deal some meaningful DPS. Personally I went Fighter 12/Wizard 5/Rogue 3 (though my last level was the 3rd Rogue level, and it didn't matter since I was planning to TR).
3. Keep in mind this kind of build is more "for fun" than to be efficient. If you want to feel like you are bringing a solid contribution in high end quests / raids, that's not the build you are looking for.

[Jean-carlo]

First off, thank you for such a Nice reading for a beginner!


That said ...

Trying to understand a lot about the game without really having any D&D experience and I'm finding (aside from figuring out what Favors are, etc) that I don't really understand how non-class specific skills work.

For example: between DPS-centric fighters like the Vanguard and Whirlwind versus DPS-centric barbarians like Savage and Storm; why the emphasis on Balance for Fighters, and Jump for Barbarians for After creation (both of them Maxing Balance At Creation)? Or is it as simple as bec Barbarian already maxed out Balance?

I've read the wikis on
http://ddowiki.com/page/Skill_usefulness
and
http://ddowiki.com/page/Skills

but still don't understand

[tihocan]

First off, thank you for such a Nice reading for a beginner!


That said ...

Trying to understand a lot about the game without really having any D&D experience and I'm finding (aside from figuring out what Favors are, etc) that I don't really understand how non-class specific skills work.

For example: between DPS-centric fighters like the Vanguard and Whirlwind versus DPS-centric barbarians like Savage and Storm; why the emphasis on Balance for Fighters, and Jump for Barbarians for After creation (both of them Maxing Balance At Creation)? Or is it as simple as bec Barbarian already maxed out Balance?

I've read the wikis on
http://ddowiki.com/page/Skill_usefulness
and
http://ddowiki.com/page/Skills

but still don't understand

Hmm I guess my skill instructions aren't yet clear enough. Balance is also maxed out for Barbarians on all levels. I'll take note that I should make it clearer, thanks!

[Jean-carlo]

Hmm I guess my skill instructions aren't yet clear enough. Balance is also maxed out for Barbarians on all levels. I'll take note that I should make it clearer, thanks!

Ah thank you!

[Chronick]

I don't understand why the human Stalwart intelligence is at 13. What is the benifit of that?

Thank you for your hard work. I am enjoying your Tempest build very much.

[tihocan]

I don't understand why the human Stalwart intelligence is at 13. What is the benifit of that?

Thank you for your hard work. I am enjoying your Tempest build very much.

13 Int is a prereq for Combat Expertise. If you can get your hands on a +X tome you can start at 13-X

It's written in the variants section: If you can get an Int tome, you can take down Int by the same amount: the goal is to be able to reach 13 so as to pick Combat Expertise.

[Ridcully1984]

For Thief-Acrobat:
Why putting stat points in Wis? The +1 Will-Save won't do as much good as a +1UMD through putting the points in CHA will.
If you go for Wis though it might make sense to splash 1 Level of Monk (for Wis to AC and Lighning Stance) and a lot higher Saves (+1 Ref +2 Fort/Will). I'd recommend that and taking the pure Rogue to the notes.

[tihocan]

For Thief-Acrobat:
Why putting stat points in Wis? The +1 Will-Save won't do as much good as a +1UMD through putting the points in CHA will.
If you go for Wis though it might make sense to splash 1 Level of Monk (for Wis to AC and Lighning Stance) and a lot higher Saves (+1 Ref +2 Fort/Will). I'd recommend that and taking the pure Rogue to the notes.

Wis: I think +1 Will save / Spot is more beneficial to new players than +1 UMD. But it's really a minor thing and you can definitely do it the other way around. I figured even with 8 base Cha you could reach 39 UMD without too much trouble (i.e. standard raid gear you can acquire with a bit of grinding, and that you would need anyway even if you had a +2 Cha), and there isn't much incentive to reach higher UMD.

Monk splash with AC: this would be quite a different build, which is less new player friendly (requires Monk, benefits more from 32 pt due to the need of higher Wis and possibly Int for CE). I'd rather not make it the "default" suggested build (it's mentioned in variants atm).

[Maelodic]

On any twf build for drow/elf:

Wouldn't it be better to drop str and pump tons of dex, and then just use weapon finesse for attack? That way you could pump more into other stats whilst still doing damage.

[tihocan]

On any twf build for drow/elf:

Wouldn't it be better to drop str and pump tons of dex, and then just use weapon finesse for attack? That way you could pump more into other stats whilst still doing damage.

Short answer: no.

Medium answer: Finesse (i) restricts the weapons you can use, (ii) takes a feat, (iii) still needs a decent Str since the bonus to damage comes from Str and not Dex, even with Finesse.

[Frotz]

On any twf build for drow/elf:

Wouldn't it be better to drop str and pump tons of dex, and then just use weapon finesse for attack? That way you could pump more into other stats whilst still doing damage.

Weapon Finesse only changes your melee to-hit modifier to Dex; your melee damage mod is still Str. The high Dex will help ranged attack, AC, and Reflex saves, and with Finesse your melee attack, but if you drop Str your melee (and ranged) damage will suffer, especially until you get Power Attack. Overcoming DR you're not bypassing can be a problem, doubly so with TWF since you're getting only 1 and 0.5 your smaller Str bonus to damage. If you're going to be doing damage with weapons you still need Strength.

<insert video of my Dexy Drow scratching ineffectually at Earth Elementals>

[mortichi]

Im waiting for the Heron monk build!!!!!!

[tihocan]

Im waiting for the Heron monk build!!!!!!

Don't hold your breath Still making progress, but going very slow, and it's small progress (no new builds are any close to being done any time soon).

[AubreyPhoenix]

Thanks so much for this thread, Tihocan, and all the work you've put in. I'm trying to work out a build for your Mighty Protector paladin for a half elf, and I am choosing to go pure paladin because intim is now a class skill and I dig the nice shiny pally capstone. I'm using the human starting stats and taking the undying court line for my faith enhancements. Should I take concentration instead of UMD because I'll be geting wands and once the U8 lines come out access to a lot of cool scrolls? How useful is UMD if you have a spellcaster dilettante? Secondly, is sorceror (stoneskin, blur, possibly greater heroism and teleport on scrolls) or favored soul (cure critical wounds, shield of faith, and possibly heal and raise dead on scrolls) better for this build? I'll be able to raise dead once every ten minutes with the second tier undying, so the FvS will just make me a slightly better healer with cure crit wands from the guild vendor, and Sorc looks nice too... so I'm torn. I'm gonna lose the khopesh feat (too expensive and there are some really nice scimitars out there, and I can make a Holy Sword version for sword and board when I get the spell at 14) and skill focus intimidate to get tower shields. Any advice is appreciated. :-)

Peace, love and elves,
Aubrey

[tihocan]

Thanks so much for this thread, Tihocan, and all the work you've put in. I'm trying to work out a build for your Mighty Protector paladin for a half elf, and I am choosing to go pure paladin because intim is now a class skill and I dig the nice shiny pally capstone. I'm using the human starting stats and taking the undying court line for my faith enhancements. Should I take concentration instead of UMD because I'll be geting wands and once the U8 lines come out access to a lot of cool scrolls? How useful is UMD if you have a spellcaster dilettante? Secondly, is sorceror (stoneskin, blur, possibly greater heroism and teleport on scrolls) or favored soul (cure critical wounds, shield of faith, and possibly heal and raise dead on scrolls) better for this build? I'll be able to raise dead once every ten minutes with the second tier undying, so the FvS will just make me a slightly better healer with cure crit wands from the guild vendor, and Sorc looks nice too... so I'm torn. I'm gonna lose the khopesh feat (too expensive and there are some really nice scimitars out there, and I can make a Holy Sword version for sword and board when I get the spell at 14) and skill focus intimidate to get tower shields. Any advice is appreciated. :-)

Peace, love and elves,
Aubrey

Concentration isn't that useful on such a build. Wands don't get a concentration check, so no worries there. Concentration is mostly for your own Cure spells, and scrolls. The good news is, with high AC, the risk of being interrupted is low enough.

So UMD is still > Concentration.

If I'm not mistaken, the Dilettante enhancements bring your caster level to max 4. With the FvS dilettante, it would mean you need to roll 16 to succeed on a Heal scroll, which isn't that great. So I would definitely keep UMD.
I don't remember well all dilettante feats (haven't rolled any half-elf, and haven't converted any of these builds to half-elf yet), but I don't think you're getting much out of FvS or Sorc that you won't eventually be able to UMD. Aren't there better ones to pick from?

[AubreyPhoenix]

Concentration isn't that useful on such a build. Wands don't get a concentration check, so no worries there. Concentration is mostly for your own Cure spells, and scrolls. The good news is, with high AC, the risk of being interrupted is low enough.

So UMD is still > Concentration.

If I'm not mistaken, the Dilettante enhancements bring your caster level to max 4. With the FvS dilettante, it would mean you need to roll 16 to succeed on a Heal scroll, which isn't that great. So I would definitely keep UMD.
I don't remember well all dilettante feats (haven't rolled any half-elf, and haven't converted any of these builds to half-elf yet), but I don't think you're getting much out of FvS or Sorc that you won't eventually be able to UMD. Aren't there better ones to pick from?

The final tier of the caster dilettantes coming out in U8 will bring the effective level up to 10, for an investment of 6AP. Right now it's at 1, so only really useful for wands or level 1 scrolls. Going pure pally, UMD is cross-class, so that's a max of 11.5 ranks, so with a +6 cha item on a base 16 cha I'm looking at 17 UMD base, which will get me RR items, but I'd fail a lot on scrolls and wands. As for the others I qualify for with those stats, Wiz would give slightly better scroll use because of lower min levels, barbarian would give me DR 1/-, with a chance to buy up to DR 3/- with some action points up to DR 3/- for 6 when U8 comes out. Raising WIS to 13 to get the monk AC bonus is pointless, because I'll be wearing full plate which negates it, and that's high when I plan on relying on items/tomes for my spellcasting, which is what I think pallys generally do. Bard gives magic item use like the others, plus a CC bardsong, which without being able to take perform skill is pretty useless. Ftr one is useless, it gives proficiency to martial weapons, which pallys already have, and U8 will allow them armor mastery. Rogue dilettante is +1d6 non-stacking sneak attack, and U8 will give increases to it.

That's all I see, unless someone sees something I miss, pure paladin, with UMD cross-class, I'm looking at 11 for skill bonus, I think it's rounded down, 16 base cha, which is + 3, another +3 for a +6 CHA item + 4 human vers III + 2 command or +3 golden cartouche if I'm lucky... +1 from my voice of the master, +2 from head of good fortune if I farm for one, which is like 14 without gear, and this is at level 20, 17-22 with gear, possible +2 tome... a max of like 26 buffed... UMD for a level 5 scroll is 36... so I'm looking at best a 70% chance for level 4 spells, a 50% chance for level 5 spells, which the U8 dilettantes would give me at level 14 for 6AP, or I can use all wands for the class I dilettante whenever I reach the min character level... so I'm looking at really only being able to use low-level RR stuff and bypassing chaotic only restriction with the UMD, because not taking rogue means I have a lot fewer ranks in it. Is UMD still worth taking then?

On the dilettante front, it leaves me with picking between using all sorc wands, or I have 13 int, so I can get the wizard dilettante, which makes me 1 level better off on caster level checks when U8 comes, for the buffs and teleport and stuff, or all FvS wands, DR I can likely get from adamantine armor, or sneak attack... which if I'm using intimidate and am any good at holding aggro, I won't get to use all that often. Half-elf also lets you use intimidate twice as often, so I'll be catching more of the mobs than I would without. Still confused and can't figure out which dilettante to take.

Peace, love and elves,
Aubrey

[tihocan]

The final tier of the caster dilettantes coming out in U8 will bring the effective level up to 10, for an investment of 6AP.

Oh ok, thanks, I didn't realize each tier stacked.
That definitely makes the FvS one more attactive: 85% success on Heal scroll. This is pretty good, as a comparison, with UMD you could reach the "magic" 39 for no-fail with:
11 (base)
6 (14 base Cha + 2 tome + 6 item) <-- can probably get this higher
3 (Golden Cartouche)
2 (Head of Good Fortune)
6 (Exc bonus)
4 (GH)
3 (Skill Focus instead of Intim)
4 (Versatility)

Anyway, I agree the FvS dilettante sounds like a good option and you could live without UMD (alhtough you seem to be interested in Arcane spells as well, which you could keep UMD for, keeping in mind a bunch of them are relatively easily available through clickies, like stoneskin / displacement).

Again, I'm not really sure about the other Dilettante feats, but I thought I saw recently in the U8 Lamannia release notes that for instance the Barb one would give more HPs with a Toughness enhancement, that can be good too.

[AubreyPhoenix]

Oh ok, thanks, I didn't realize each tier stacked.
That definitely makes the FvS one more attactive: 85% success on Heal scroll. This is pretty good, as a comparison, with UMD you could reach the "magic" 39 for no-fail with:
11 (base)
6 (14 base Cha + 2 tome + 6 item) <-- can probably get this higher
3 (Golden Cartouche)
2 (Head of Good Fortune)
6 (Exc bonus)
4 (GH)
3 (Skill Focus instead of Intim)
4 (Versatility)

Anyway, I agree the FvS dilettante sounds like a good option and you could live without UMD (alhtough you seem to be interested in Arcane spells as well, which you could keep UMD for, keeping in mind a bunch of them are relatively easily available through clickies, like stoneskin / displacement).

Again, I'm not really sure about the other Dilettante feats, but I thought I saw recently in the U8 Lamannia release notes that for instance the Barb one would give more HPs with a Toughness enhancement, that can be good too.

Unfortunately, pally toughness and barb toughness don't stack, so all I get is DR 1/- with options on DR 3/- for another 6 AP, which is useless if I end up in adamantine heavy armor. :-( You can only take one class-based line for toughness or for a particular stat, though racial stat enhancements stack with class ones. As for the stoneskin, blur, and displacement clickies, I'm digging that. Are they on randomly generated items, or are there any named items I want to look out for? I know it comes on greensteel clothes and jewelry, are there any other ways to get clickies that will help me soak/avoid damage like stoneskin and displacement that I don't know about? Do they come on random generated items, or are there any named items I should go farm other than shroud runs when I get high enough for that? I know already an AC build is a bit of a grind for getting gear, but nothing I can't handle. Looks like I'm going with FvS dilettante, it seems to give me more than wizard would and UMD because there's really no better way to spend those skill points. Thanks for the help, and btw, +1 rep. :-)

P.S. I love that U8 actually makes half-elves playable. The process of making a half-elf is already messy, and it's hard to fight if you're hopping on one foot and have to choose between your sword OR your shield. Forgive me for the bad joke.

[tihocan]

Unfortunately, pally toughness and barb toughness don't stack, so all I get is DR 1/- with options on DR 3/- for another 6 AP, which is useless if I end up in adamantine heavy armor. :-( You can only take one class-based line for toughness or for a particular stat, though racial stat enhancements stack with class ones. As for the stoneskin, blur, and displacement clickies, I'm digging that. Are they on randomly generated items, or are there any named items I want to look out for? I know it comes on greensteel clothes and jewelry, are there any other ways to get clickies that will help me soak/avoid damage like stoneskin and displacement that I don't know about? Do they come on random generated items, or are there any named items I should go farm other than shroud runs when I get high enough for that? I know already an AC build is a bit of a grind for getting gear, but nothing I can't handle.

Oh ok, again I'm very newbish to half-elf stuff, I thought the barb one would stack, being "racial" in some sense

You can search by keyword on http://perfectweb.org/ddo/itemwiki/Default.aspx to find some specific properties of named items.

Stoneskin / Displacement clickies I had in mind were mostly Shroud crafted ones (only need tier 2, so not too expensive, and a clicky typically doesn't need to be cleansed). Some items give Blur-like concealment (e.g. the Mabar cloak at L16+, which seems to be giving 20% even though text says 10%).

You won't find them on randomly generated items though.

[AubreyPhoenix]

You can search by keyword on http://perfectweb.org/ddo/itemwiki/Default.aspx to find some specific properties of named items.

Stoneskin / Displacement clickies I had in mind were mostly Shroud crafted ones (only need tier 2, so not too expensive, and a clicky typically doesn't need to be cleansed). Some items give Blur-like concealment (e.g. the Mabar cloak at L16+, which seems to be giving 20% even though text says 10%).

You won't find them on randomly generated items though.

Thanks for the URL, looks like a great site. Looks like I need to grind Mabar undead so I can get me one of those cloaks. I'm enjoying the h-elf paladin. You mind if I post the build when I figure everything out, and say it's based on your pally tank build? Would it be better to post here, another thread here in the new player forums or in the h-elf forum? I'll make a note about possibilities with U8, and FvS vs Wiz dilettante. It may merit its own thread, because I think it makes more sense on a half elf to go pure, but I can see using a pal 18/rog 1/ftr 1 splash, too. In any event, I'll be sure to credit you, because this is an adaptation of your build, and I use a lot of the same feats, enhancements, etc.

Peace, love and elves,
Aubrey