Revisiting paths: Builds for new players

[tihocan]

Tihocan, you list this as being an offensive caster, yet the lack of Heighten makes that extremely difficult. 105 extra SP is not enough to make up for not having this feat. I believe you should also mention taking Spell Focus: Evocation instead of Spell Penetration feats as the best offensive spell Favoured Souls have available is Blade Barrier, which does not roll against SR but is an Evocation spell.

You have Owl's Wisdom listed as a level 2 spell choice, yet not Eagle's Splendor, which will be more useful in high level quests that have Disjunction, such as the IQ, Abbot raid, Epic ADQ1 and others so casting higher level spells is not lost completely.

Additionally, Life Magic 4 is worth much more than Prayer of Life 2 and Prayer of Incredibly Life combined. A Favoured Soul should aim at having a non-crit heal be enough, at which point crit-heals end up as overhealing.

And finally, you should mention Empower instead of Empower Healing, at least done in the options. The only things Empower Healing affects that Empower does not is Heal and Mass Heal, which often do not need the boost, and FvS have an enhancement line to reduce the cost of Empower down to 9 SP, which is cheaper than Empower Healing would be.


EDIT: The solo-ability you have listed is incorrect. Upon getting Blade Barrier, it is extremely easy to solo from level 12 all the way to 20, where Blade Barrier's effectiveness drops off due to the incredibly high saves in Epic. It should be green from levels 12 to 19, and then perhaps yellow or orange at level 20. Also, if you take CHA down to 12 and DEX to 8, that is enough points available to put into STR to melee from level 1 all the way up to level 20 with Divine Favour/Power in Epic content, and makes for a much more rounded character overall, and drastically improves solo-ability in the lower levels (Divine Favour is more SP-efficient than any damaging spell is below level 12).

EDIT 2: You have Orien Balance 1 listed under Human, but not the prerequisite feat Least Dragonmark or Passage.

Thanks for the great comments:
- Heighten: I used to have it on my cleric, and dropped it because it wasn't really useful. BB works fine without it, there aren't that many foes with high reflex and evasion. But I agree it's a good option too and I could mention it. The reason I didn't include it is this is the "healing-focused" FvS, not the fully maxed "offensive caster" (which I haven't done yet).
- Eagle's splendor: That's a good point, I never ran into the situation you mention but I guess it could happen, and is probably more useful than Owl's.
- Life Magic vs. Crits: I didn't really think much about it. My point was mostly that you should have at least those listed. I agree you'd want Life Magic IV as well. I'll have to look at the numbers to make sure there is enough room for it.
- Empower vs. Empower healing: same as Heighten: I agree I could mention it, but it's moving from healing-focused to offensive casting-focused. Empowered Healing can be pretty nice on mass Heals with high HP melees.
- Soloability: Yep, I need to revise it on pretty much all builds. Also at this point I don't consider Epic at L20, because I don't think there is much interest for players to solo Epic content. But I should at least make it explicit, and maybe revise my position if someone can convince me otherwise
- Orien Balance: Known mistake, sorry. I still have to go back and fix it in a number of builds.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Thanks for the great comments:
- Heighten: I used to have it on my cleric, and dropped it because it wasn't really useful. BB works fine without it, there aren't that many foes with high reflex and evasion. But I agree it's a good option too and I could mention it. The reason I didn't include it is this is the "healing-focused" FvS, not the fully maxed "offensive caster" (which I haven't done yet).

For Shroud and such Heighten really isn't needed (they fail against mine even on Elite pretty much all the time), but it makes quite a noticeable difference in some of Shav and pretty much every Epic quest, which is the main reason I mentioned it. I know it's a "new player" build, but already giving them the tools to be prepared for Epics in the build I don't see as a bad idea. The difference between "healing-focused" and "offensive caster" is actually very little build-wise, yet the difference in enjoyment I've found is quite huge (at least in my case).

Even without Heighten though, there are plenty of better feats than Mental Toughness, especially for a class that can get to 2800 SP without the feat.

- Eagle's splendor: That's a good point, I never ran into the situation you mention but I guess it could happen, and is probably more useful than Owl's.

I've been hit with Disjunction a few times in Epics and in IQ...kind of annoying when you can't cast at all. I rarely have to use Eagle's Splendor, but when the situation comes up I'm glad I have the spell.

- Life Magic vs. Crits: I didn't really think much about it. My point was mostly that you should have at least those listed. I agree you'd want Life Magic IV as well. I'll have to look at the numbers to make sure there is enough room for it.

If both can fit in that's great, but when your Mass Cures are already healing 120+ points...hoping for a crit isn't really needed. I took the first level in each and haven't noticed any ill effects from that on my healing.

- Empower vs. Empower healing: same as Heighten: I agree I could mention it, but it's moving from healing-focused to offensive casting-focused. Empowered Healing can be pretty nice on mass Heals with high HP melees.

I can say from experience that Mass Heal (with just Quicken) is enough to heal the boss fight in eVON6 solo (when I ran it the other night one divine DCed, and another ran out of SP completely). With just Life Magic 4, Mass Heal hits regular fleshies for 280. Rarely do melee have over 550 HP (unless they're well geared), and hitting the button when all the red bars are at ~1/2 should keep everyone full for pretty much the whole fight. If there's a problem with low healing-amp Warforged in the party, an added Mass Cure Light Wounds here and there (or a spot heal) generally fixes the issue. And if not, hey, it teaches the Warforged that healing amp is important.

But again, the difference between heal-bot and offensive FvS is very tiny...just a couple of feats.



But for your paths, you could list an offensive casting one (this one with minor edits), a melee one, and then one that combines both (with slightly less DCs than the first and slightly less melee than the second, but still effective in both), or perhaps provide two different melee ones, one pure and one splash.

Any of those concepts can heal almost as well as a healing-focused one (around 95-98%, depending), yet everything else skyrockets.

[tihocan]

Thanks again, all good points. Besides Heighten, any other feat you'd suggest to replace MT with?

A tthis point my focus is on staying with the intent of the original "official" paths. For FvS there is one healing-focused, one offensive-casting-focused, and one melee-focused. I agree that the difference beetween healing and offensive-casting focus is very tiny, but if I want to keep them in 2 different builds, I need them to pick different feats... Then it's up to the player to decide which one he'd enjoy most.

One thing about empower healing is it can be handy when healing warforged. I know good WF melees always try to have some minimum healing amplification, but sometimes you have to heal a WF who didn't do much effort. I remember one ToD run on my cleric where I was alone responsible to keep the WF barbarian alive, and I had a lot of trouble because my Heal spell was hitting him for 160 only (vs. 342 when cast on myself). I had to cyle through Heal, Mass Heal, Heal scrolls as fast as I could, and I really wish I had empower healing (though I wished even more the guy had invested into some healing amp)

[maddenmasterj]

Hey thanks again for al the information do you think you will be getting to the vituoso bard build soon as I am itching to make and would hate to lvl him up then realize i screwed him up.
thanks

[tihocan]

Hey thanks again for al the information do you think you will be getting to the vituoso bard build soon as I am itching to make and would hate to lvl him up then realize i screwed him up.
thanks

Sorry, no. I'm still thinking I'll be able to update existing stuff soon, but new builds may take a while. Especially with U7 adding 2 new races.

[maddenmasterj]

Ok man no worries you gotta do what ya gotta do and thx again for all the help.

[Irinis]

But for your paths, you could list an offensive casting one (this one with minor edits), a melee one, and then one that combines both (with slightly less DCs than the first and slightly less melee than the second, but still effective in both), or perhaps provide two different melee ones, one pure and one splash.

Hey Aylin, I'd love if you'd take a look at my builds, I made two melee FvS in the format of this thread but haven't had much feedback at all.

Sovereign Avenger THF (Pure)
Celestial Avenger TWF (Splash)

I think the pure build got lost in this thread, posted separately now so it can have discussion.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Thanks again, all good points. Besides Heighten, any other feat you'd suggest to replace MT with?

Hmm.

Perhaps Empower (it'll stack with Empower Healing and Maximize for healing purposes) and give a bit more bite on offensiveness.

Skill Focus: UMD would be a good choice as well if you has the skill points for it. There are a lot of useful Arcane spells, like Teleport, Fire shield and Reconstruct (for those low-amp Warforged). I know I go through a few hundred Invisibility scrolls per week just doing Epics too.

Enlarge maybe, for healing outside of stun range in ToD.

Though really I'd still say Heighten over any of those.

A tthis point my focus is on staying with the intent of the original "official" paths. For FvS there is one healing-focused, one offensive-casting-focused, and one melee-focused. I agree that the difference beetween healing and offensive-casting focus is very tiny, but if I want to keep them in 2 different builds, I need them to pick different feats... Then it's up to the player to decide which one he'd enjoy most.

Well, many of the pre-built paths additionally had bad concepts, as well as being badly built to do said concept. A prime example would be the old Two-Headed Heron path...specializing in the absolute worst weapon in the game. I would file a healbot concept under the same heading.

I think it's important that new player guides show new players that they don't have to be a healbot, but rather heal well and do something else well. Since in other games this is often different, I think it is important that we really stress that a player is able to be more than just a healbot.

One thing about empower healing is it can be handy when healing warforged. I know good WF melees always try to have some minimum healing amplification, but sometimes you have to heal a WF who didn't do much effort. I remember one ToD run on my cleric where I was alone responsible to keep the WF barbarian alive, and I had a lot of trouble because my Heal spell was hitting him for 160 only (vs. 342 when cast on myself). I had to cyle through Heal, Mass Heal, Heal scrolls as fast as I could, and I really wish I had empower healing (though I wished even more the guy had invested into some healing amp)

So the guy only had a 10% healing amp item with no Healer's Friend ranks?

Was he in charge of kiting Suulomades or something? I would have let the guy die (after a few deaths he'll realise he needs more healing amp anyway), and then hit Suuly with some spell to grab aggro and kited him around myself. Or hit him with a heal at the beginning of the raid, and then told the party leader you would not be keeping a gimp alive.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Hey Aylin, I'd love if you'd take a look at my builds, I made two melee FvS in the format of this thread but haven't had much feedback at all.

Sovereign Avenger THF (Pure)
Celestial Avenger TWF (Splash)

I think the pure build got lost in this thread, posted separately now so it can have discussion.

Sure, though I probably won't get a chance until Wednesday as I've already procrastinated far too much today (and Tuesdays are just abysmal with my schedule).

[rayworks]

I've got a FoJ 5th lvl right now and was wondering if taking 1 ftr now for the extra feat is a good idea.

Also, I'm having issues managing my special attacks and other abilities. I've got like 5 hotbars right now and even though I think I've got them organized fairly well, I still can't seem to be effective in melee with them. Any advice?

[tihocan]

I've got a FoJ 5th lvl right now and was wondering if taking 1 ftr now for the extra feat is a good idea.

Also, I'm having issues managing my special attacks and other abilities. I've got like 5 hotbars right now and even though I think I've got them organized fairly well, I still can't seem to be effective in melee with them. Any advice?

What extra feat do you want? If you are planning to play up to L20, it's likely this extra feat won't be as useful as the Paladin's capstone.

[tihocan]

I think it's important that new player guides show new players that they don't have to be a healbot, but rather heal well and do something else well. Since in other games this is often different, I think it is important that we really stress that a player is able to be more than just a healbot.

Oh I agree, but some players actually *want* to play healbots I still think my current FvS build, even though it's not maxed towards offensive spellcasting, is still a decent offensive spellcaster and allows people who enjoy healbotting to also try out their offensive spells. But I should probably emphasize a bit more that you could improve a bit your spellcasting without really hurting your healing abilities.

So the guy only had a 10% healing amp item with no Healer's Friend ranks?

Was he in charge of kiting Suulomades or something? I would have let the guy die (after a few deaths he'll realise he needs more healing amp anyway), and then hit Suuly with some spell to grab aggro and kited him around myself. Or hit him with a heal at the beginning of the raid, and then told the party leader you would not be keeping a gimp alive.

He was tanking Horoth while the rest of the party was taking down Suulo. I didn't realize he was so hard to heal until after I was left alone with him

[AylinIsAwesome]

Oh I agree, but some players actually *want* to play healbots I still think my current FvS build, even though it's not maxed towards offensive spellcasting, is still a decent offensive spellcaster and allows people who enjoy healbotting to also try out their offensive spells. But I should probably emphasize a bit more that you could improve a bit your spellcasting without really hurting your healing abilities.

Fair enough I suppose.

He was tanking Horoth while the rest of the party was taking down Suulo. I didn't realize he was so hard to heal until after I was left alone with him

A good candidate for your DNG list then, huh?

[rayworks]

What extra feat do you want? If you are planning to play up to L20, it's likely this extra feat won't be as useful as the Paladin's capstone.

Honestly, I thought I could take dodge and extend. And then I realized dodge isn't worth it after I checked. So, um, never mind /emily latella voice/.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Warchanter (L18 Bard/L1 Fighter/L1 Barbarian)

Concept: Bard with decent melee abilities and great buffs, but weak offensive spell-casting (still able to Fascinate for crowd-control though).
Original path's flaws: Some combat feats not appropriate to such a build (Cleave, Stunning Blow), waste of a few build points in Cha, trying to get too many skills (resulting in particular in low Concentration)
Main fixes: Revised feats and optimized build points and skills to focus on the build's strengths. Splashed one level of barbarian (for proficiencies and to take advantage of the warchanter's raging ability) and one level of fighter (for the extra feat), making it a better combatant.

Multi-class progression <- click for more info: Create your character as Bard, then take your second level as Barbarian, levels 3 to 9 as Bard, level 10 as Fighter, and finally Bard from 11 to 20.
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Good, Neutral, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, Lawful Good

Stats and Race (28/32 pt):
........Drow.....Dwarf......Elf.....Halfling...Human...Warforged.
.Str.....17........17........17........16........17........17....
.Dex.....10.......9/10.......10........10.......8/9.......9/10...
.Con.....14......17/18.....14/15.....15/16.......16......16/17...
.Int.....10........8.........8.........8.........8.........8.....
.Wis.....9........8/9........8.........8........8/10......8/9....
.Cha.....14........12......13/14.....12/14.....13/14.......12....

Ability increase every 4 levels: All in Str.

Skills (except Human and Drow): Max out UMD, Perform, Concentration, Balance, get one rank in Tumble and spend the rest into Jump. Jump will have to lag behind a bit because of skill points lost on the Barbarian and Fighter levels, which is fine. On these two levels, just ensure you do not end up with 0.5 in any skill, as it may prevent you from maxing it out later on.
Skills (Human and Drow): Same, but also max out Haggle.

Feats (by level), except Human: Extend (1), Weapon Focus: Slash (3), Power Attack (6), Toughness (9), Improved Crit: Slash (10), Two-Handed Fighting (12), Improved Two-Handed Fighting (15), Greater Two-Handed Figthing (18)
Feats (by level), Human: Toughness (1), Extend (1), Weapon Focus: Slash (3), Power Attack (6), Two-Handed Fighting (9), Improved Crit: Slash (10), Improved Two-Handed Fighting (12), Greater Two-Handed Fighting (15), Empower Healing (18)

For more information about picking enhancements please read this post.
Enhancements (Barbarian): Sprint Boost I, Toughness I
Enhancements (Bard): Extra Song II, Inspired Attack III, Inspired Bravery II, Inspired Damage III, Lingering Song III, Lyric of Incredible Song I, Lyric of Song I, Song Magic II, Wand and Scroll Mastery II, Warchanter I
Enhancements (Fighter): Haste Boost I
Enhancements (Drow): Enchantment Resistance I, Racial Toughness II
Enhancements (Dwarf): Axe Attack I, Axe Damage I, Constitution I, Racial Toughness II, Spell Defense I
Enhancements (Elf): Enchantment Resistance I, Racial Toughness II, Valenar Elf Melee Attack I, Valenar Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancements (Halfling): Cunning I, Guile II, Hero's Companion III, Luck (Fortitude) I, Luck (Reflex) I, Luck (Will) I, Racial Toughness II
Enhancements (Human): Adaptatability Strength I, Improved Recovery I, Racial Toughness II, Versatility III
Enhancements (Warforged): Constitution I, Construct Thinking I, Great Weapon Aptitude II, Hardiness I, Healer's Friend II, Racial Toughness II

Spells taken when leveling up.
Spells followed by brackets may be swapped for the spell given in brackets, at the character level also provided. Swapping spells is often a non-mandatory minor optimization, so you may decide not to do it if it is too expensive for you (you can also directly pick the spell that should be swapped to, but be careful that you may wish you had the other spell while leveling up).

• L1: Cure Light Wounds [Feather Fall at L6]
• L3: Expeditious Retreat
• L4: Focusing Chant
• L5: Blur / Heroism [Summon Monster II at L15]
• L6: Cure Moderate Wounds [Invisibility at L12] / Detect Secret Doors
• L8: Displacement / Haste / Rage
• L9: Good Hope
• L12: Cure Serious Wounds / Dimension Door / Freedom of Movement
• L13: Break Enchantment
• L15: Cure Critical Wound / Cure Light Wounds, Mass / Greater Heroism
• L16: Greater Dispel Magic
• L18: Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass / Mass Suggestion / Otto's Irresistible Dance / Remove Fear
• L19: Eagle splendor / Heroes' Feast
• L20: Remove Curse

Soloability by level:
No hireling..: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
With hireling: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

Tips:
- The idea is (starting at L2) to swing a two-handed weapon (Falchion, Greataxe or Greatsword), relying on blur/displacement and the Warchanter's DR song for defense.
- Use your barbarian rages when you expect not to have to cast spells or use scrolls in the next minute (put your 'Dismiss Rage' feat on a hotbar so you can quickly get out of rage if needed).
- The Warforged will enjoy not being fatigued after the rages. Other races may rely on lesser restoration wands / potions to get rid of fatigue faster.
- The Human version has room for Empower Healing, making it more viable to heal the party through mass heals at high levels.
- Carry a devotion weapon to quickly swap to when you need to heal (a clicky works too, or an item if you can spare the slot).
- Remember that you need a Cha of at least (10 + spell level) to cast a spell. You can use items, enhancements, tomes and the Eagle's Splendor spell to meet this requirement.
- Learn to take advantage of Fascinate: even with non-maxed Cha and no +Perform item, it remains a very strong ability against non-immune mobs.

Variants:
- One may prefer to go for dual-wielding instead of Two-Handed Fighting. 32 pt builds will help meet the Dex requirements (15 for Two-Weapon Fighting, 17 for Improved TWF and Greater TWF, where only starting Dex + level-up + tomes count). Str should be taken down to 16, and Cha can also be reduced a bit if needed. Splashing two levels of ranger instead of Barbarian and Fighter can be a decent option to get the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, a favored enemy and Bow Strength.
- If you want to add Empower Healing to be a more useful healer on a non Human, it may be better to replace the Barbarian level with a second level of Fighter. This will give you one extra feat (so you can for instance take Power Attack on the first Fighter level, then pick Empower Healing at L6), and +1 Str with the Fighter enhancement, but you lose the Barbarian fast movement, sprint boost, and ability to rage.
- Alternatively, you can replace the Fighter level with Barbarian, gaining Uncanny Dodge, enhancements for +1 Con, longer Rage and 1 extra Rage, but losing the haste boost and one feat (dropping Extend, or Empower Healing on a Human).
- Splashing more than 2 levels can be ok on such a build (which is not focused on offensive casting), but keep in mind we do not know yet what Warchanter III (L18 Bard enhancement) will give us.
- This build gives up offensive spell casting in favor of melee abilities. It is possible to focus more on spells, by favoring Cha instead of Str. However, keep in mind that Warchanter requires Power Attack (13+ Str with base Str and tomes) and Weapon Focus, two feats that are wasted if you are not fighting. For such a build, more feats to boost spells should be taken (Heighten, Spell focus: Enchantment, Spell Penetration), at the expense of the Two-Handed Fighting line, and it is best to remain pure Bard.

Color code: best to worst = green, yellow, orange, red

So I have been following this build & having great fun along the way so far! Im a lvl 4 drow.
However I do have some questions/need some clarification on a couple of points if it's not 2 much 2 ask!

Q1. I know I read the post on the enhancements so these aren't set in stone, Im a little confused as to it listing 4 the drow racial toughness & for the barbarian toughness but I think I can't pick those/these until I get the toughness feat on lvl 9? So am I suppose 2 wait until lvl 9 2 get/pick up those/these enhancements or?

Q2. In regards 2 the bard enhancements are those available later on cos *so far* I haven't seen them come up as of yet in the enhancements list unless I pick/check that box that then shows all of them that are available.

That's about it, been having a blast so far, just trying/needing 2 get some better gear as always haha! Thx in advance for any help/tips/advice etc! :P! !

[Irinis]

So I have been following this build & having great fun along the way so far! Im a lvl 4 drow.
However I do have some questions/need some clarification on a couple of points if it's not 2 much 2 ask!

Q1. I know I read the post on the enhancements so these aren't set in stone, Im a little confused as to it listing 4 the drow racial toughness & for the barbarian toughness but I think I can't pick those/these until I get the toughness feat on lvl 9? So am I suppose 2 wait until lvl 9 2 get/pick up those/these enhancements or?

Q2. In regards 2 the bard enhancements are those available later on cos *so far* I haven't seen them come up as of yet in the enhancements list unless I pick/check that box that then shows all of them that are available.

That's about it, been having a blast so far, just trying/needing 2 get some better gear as always haha! Thx in advance for any help/tips/advice etc! :P! !

A1. Yes you wait to take toughness enhancements until after you take the feat. No worries.

A2. You should be able to take the first tier of the bard enhancements now, at least some of them. Damage I then Bravery I then take a few other enhancements and Attack I should show up. Sometimes you have to spend AP before certain ones are unlocked to get. Since you're Drow, get the enhancements to increase damage on Rapier and Shortsword.

[tihocan]

Note that the following quote taken from the post that gives more details on enhancements (linked in each build) should answer both questions:

Wonder why you don't see an enhancement available? Click the "show unavailable" box on the trainer enhancement UI and mouse over the enhancement to check the prerequisites.

[whereispowderedsilve]

A1. Yes you wait to take toughness enhancements until after you take the feat. No worries.

A2. You should be able to take the first tier of the bard enhancements now, at least some of them. Damage I then Bravery I then take a few other enhancements and Attack I should show up. Sometimes you have to spend AP before certain ones are unlocked to get. Since you're Drow, get the enhancements to increase damage on Rapier and Shortsword.

Thx 4 the help! Yup I think it's that I just need to get more action points spent etc! Thx for clearing up about the
toughness feat as well!

[whereispowderedsilve]

Note that the following quote taken from the post that gives more details on enhancements (linked in each build) should answer both questions:

Wonder why you don't see an enhancement available? Click the "show unavailable" box on the trainer enhancement UI and mouse over the enhancement to check the prerequisites.

Yup figured it out now! Thanks a bunch! I do have a question about extend though, Im trying to use it with with
expeditious retreat & focused chant but they don't seem to double the duration at all?
Also does extend work with wands or? I did check the wiki: http://ddowiki.com/page/Extend_Spell
But in game whether I click extend from my shortcut bar before or after I cast 1 of those 2 spells, neither seem to work
on doubling the duration of the spell? Am I doing something wrong or? Thanks again in advance for any help/advice!
Greatly appreciated!

[Irinis]

Yup figured it out now! Thanks a bunch! I do have a question about extend though, Im trying to use it with with
expeditious retreat & focused chant but they don't seem to double the duration at all?
Also does extend work with wands or? I did check the wiki: http://ddowiki.com/page/Extend_Spell
But in game whether I click extend from my shortcut bar before or after I cast 1 of those 2 spells, neither seem to work
on doubling the duration of the spell? Am I doing something wrong or? Thanks again in advance for any help/advice!
Greatly appreciated!

Extend is a toggle. If it has a squiggly border it's on. Focusing Chant is really short so the extended version still feels short. Just keep Extend toggled ON at early levels, later on you'll want it on only for Displace, Rage, Haste, and Focusing Chant in most quests (though some quests are so long you want everything extended and just recast the above spells when they expire).

It doesn't work on wands at all, each wand has a specific duration - for higher durations seek out higher level wands.