Revisiting paths: Builds for new players

[ssgcmwatson]

Arcane Archer (L20 Ranger)
<snip snip>
- It could be tempting to splash Rogue for UMD, but overall it is best to stay pure Ranger on such a build, because the Ranger capstone enhancement increases your ranged attack speed.

First - awesome job on all these builds - I just stumbled on this thread and wish I would have had it six months ago!

Second - apologies if someone already brought this up, but I'm not scanning through 20+ pages of replies (and the "search this thread" option seems to be fubar'd). I think splashing rogue has more advantage than just UMD; you can take Rogue Haste Boost and have 15% bonus to attack speed 5x per rest. It will work with either ranged or melee over all 20 levels (assuming you take rogue first, which I would to dump lots of points into UMD), which IMHO is a great trade-off for having 25% ranged once you get to level 20.

Add to that sneak attack bonuses, plus decent trap-monkey abilities with the right gear.

[tihocan]

Second - apologies if someone already brought this up, but I'm not scanning through 20+ pages of replies (and the "search this thread" option seems to be fubar'd). I think splashing rogue has more advantage than just UMD; you can take Rogue Haste Boost and have 15% bonus to attack speed 5x per rest. It will work with either ranged or melee over all 20 levels (assuming you take rogue first, which I would to dump lots of points into UMD), which IMHO is a great trade-off for having 25% ranged once you get to level 20.

Add to that sneak attack bonuses, plus decent trap-monkey abilities with the right gear.

That's a good point, although at L20 it's easy to quickly go through all your boosts in Epic content. But taking note of it, thanks!

[Dancingrage]

A question about bards:

I've generally thought of bards as being mostly the jack of all trades, master of none who basically can dabble in a little of everything, and I notice the paths tend towards specializing the bard in some area or another, but I don't see anything that really leads the bard towards the JOAT strengths, mostly trying to fill in another area, or anything that helps the bard with Open Lock/Disable Device.

Do you have anything that works for this sort of thing or should I look at fiddling around and making it happen? I was thinking of taking the character builder I've seen around and trying a bard with a few splashes of rogue to help with doors and traps, with a balance between Str/Dex and Chr for a 28 point build.

If there's nothing common would anyone be interested in seeing a theoretical build I could whip up and putting their experience into judging if it's worth a hoot or not?

[Oliaga]

Bards arn't really a JOAT class. What they are is a class with decent casting abilities (with a focus on CC and buffing, but a huge deficiency in damage dealing), a high amount of skill points (which, with DDO's cropped skill list isn't as useful as it was in P&P), a medium BAB and a few martial weapons (but no two-handers, which kinda forces a bard to splash fighter or barb or to blow a feat on proficiency for good melee, or use focusing chant, which isn't convenient if you have to switch weapons), and terrible hitpoints.

It's pretty common to take a rogue splash on ranger builds, also a 6+Int class. However, the Bard skill list lacks any of the "locks and traps" skills, which means a Bard will need 8 skill points to max out all four of those skills on their bard levels (14 int on nonhuman, 12 on human). And that means giving up on all the other skills - no perform (which cripples some of your class abilities) no concentration (no casting in melee) no UMD (which is really the defined skill of someone who considers themselves a JOAT), and none of the "not absolutely essential but very useful" skills like Balance, Haggle, Jump.

If you were to make a "locks and traps" human bard, and you didn't want to give up on UMD & Perform, you need a 16 Int (on a class that doesn't get anything out of Int except skill points) - which means unless you shortchange your Charisma or your Constitution (bad idea on d6 HD), you don't have any points for Str or Dex like you said (14/8/14/16/8/14 would be what I would recommend).

Realistically, if you want a locks & traps character with strong melee, make a rogue, or a ranger with a rogue splash. If you really want a locks & traps bard, give up on melee as a reasonable option. Bard does have some nifty things to help with the locks & traps role - on-demand heroism/greater heroism, focusing chant, on-demand invisible trap disabling (which is hilarious).

As an aside, unless you're doing TWF, archery, or trying to max out your AC, there's really no reason to put points in Dex. It's a dump stat for all other character types.

[Dancingrage]

Actually, I was poking at the idea again a bit later and realized I could just dump the spare points from Str into Dex and go for Weapon Finesse to get some use out of the dex bonus alongside having a good AC out of it, which would also help me on locks and traps. Between that and using a Keen Rapier of various types, I could get a lot of damage mileage out of a character with pretty poor STR.

The cross class problem however is a sticky one, and I'll have to look at it for a bit to see if it's still going to be worth it.

I think I could splash up to 3 levels into Rogue, but it seems more problematic than useful. I may just try it on my bard and see, though I may have to reroll him to get the abilities I'd like (running a lot of 14s now as it is) and see if it'll hold up through the levels.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Actually, I was poking at the idea again a bit later and realized I could just dump the spare points from Str into Dex and go for Weapon Finesse to get some use out of the dex bonus alongside having a good AC out of it, which would also help me on locks and traps. Between that and using a Keen Rapier of various types, I could get a lot of damage mileage out of a character with pretty poor STR.

The cross class problem however is a sticky one, and I'll have to look at it for a bit to see if it's still going to be worth it.

I think I could splash up to 3 levels into Rogue, but it seems more problematic than useful. I may just try it on my bard and see, though I may have to reroll him to get the abilities I'd like (running a lot of 14s now as it is) and see if it'll hold up through the levels.

There is only 2 skills that you need to do traps: search and disable. These are based off your intelligence. 8 starting dexterity and a total of 4 in open lock (up to 10 for convenience) is enough to open every important lock in the game. Hence, dexterity is still your dump stat. Wisdom is another important dump stat for bards so you definitely don't want to try to have a decent spot score.

Not having spot means that you need to know where the traps are beforehand or have someone point them out to you. I would generally suggest to people that they play a rogue or ranger (with 1 level of rogue) style character who can easily get good spot to make it easier to learn the traps in the game before playing a build with traps thrown in. The alternative is to always being told where the traps are by the dumb barbarian, it just isn't very becoming for a sophisticated bard.

The reason you don't see many JOAT bards is that DDO is a challenging game and it is more or less impossible to be able to pull your weight in a party without some specialisation. In general, if you have a high strength, take power attack and cast masters touch or splash a level of fighter or barbarian you can get some decent DPS. The amount of DPS that you do needs to have a relation to the amount of other things that you can do. Healing, buffing, crowd control are all options for a bard which can see them losing some of their DPS while still being useful in a party. Trap skills are not. There are many builds that have full trap skills that don't make much in the way of sacrifices for it (Rogue (2) / Wizard (18) for evasion, Ranger (18)/Rogue (1) / Fighter (or monk) (1)).

If you are keen to do traps as a bard and know where most of the traps are in most quests or don't mind having them constantly pointed out to you then splashing 1 rogue and 1 barbarian on a warchanter build could work nicely for you. Only take search and disable device. Make sure you max concentration, perform and UMD. Make sure there is some points in balance. Make sure you start with 14 intelligence. The amount of splashing is kind of optional, bards don't get a huge amount between levels 14 and 19 so you can feel free to go 2 rogue / 2 barbarian or more as well. As long as you have toughness, power attack, extend spell and improved critical: type of choice you will be pretty much fine

[Oliaga]

Actually, I was poking at the idea again a bit later and realized I could just dump the spare points from Str into Dex and go for Weapon Finesse to get some use out of the dex bonus alongside having a good AC out of it, which would also help me on locks and traps. Between that and using a Keen Rapier of various types, I could get a lot of damage mileage out of a character with pretty poor STR.

The cross class problem however is a sticky one, and I'll have to look at it for a bit to see if it's still going to be worth it.

I think I could splash up to 3 levels into Rogue, but it seems more problematic than useful. I may just try it on my bard and see, though I may have to reroll him to get the abilities I'd like (running a lot of 14s now as it is) and see if it'll hold up through the levels.

Weapon finesse isn't really as good as it looks on paper. You're basically paying a feat to split your attack stat and your damage stat - and it's only usable with a bunch of mostly terrible weapons. It's not terrible for rogues, because they get bonus damage from sneak attack (and lots of it), which isn't dependent on strength - however weapon finessing rogues do terrible damage on non sneak-attackable enemies, plus it makes it easier to get their Dex up without tomes for TWF. Same goes for monk - bonus damage from class, plus, it doesn't force them to use some terrible weapon.

Bards don't -have- awesome bonus damage from class. Weapon finessing (without also TWF, and the heavy feat investment there) means you're probably using a rapier instead of a greatsword/axe/falchion. You said you could do some nice damage with a keen rapier of various types - you'd be doing even better with a keen 2h of various types.

And you can pretty much ignore the AC contribution as if it's not there.- because at high levels, it won't be. You're not an AC twink so eventually your AC won't matter at all - and it's not like PnP D&D, where you go "well at least it prevents them from power attacking their full BAB, right?"

Also Dex doesn't help you on traps - that's Int. Dex only helps on Open Lock - which isn't really a big deal, considering there's no penalty for failure.

Short story: Dex build with weapon finesse is a bad idea (unless you're also doing TWF, in which case it's still a bad idea, just less bad).

[tihocan]

A question about bards:

I've generally thought of bards as being mostly the jack of all trades, master of none who basically can dabble in a little of everything, and I notice the paths tend towards specializing the bard in some area or another, but I don't see anything that really leads the bard towards the JOAT strengths, mostly trying to fill in another area, or anything that helps the bard with Open Lock/Disable Device.

Do you have anything that works for this sort of thing or should I look at fiddling around and making it happen? I was thinking of taking the character builder I've seen around and trying a bard with a few splashes of rogue to help with doors and traps, with a balance between Str/Dex and Chr for a 28 point build.

If there's nothing common would anyone be interested in seeing a theoretical build I could whip up and putting their experience into judging if it's worth a hoot or not?

The most "jack of all trades" I can think of would be something like THF 18 bard / 2 rogue with both decent Str and Cha. A Drow could look like 16/10/12/16/8/16, with feats:
- Warchanter version => level-ups in Str, Toughness / Weapon Focus: Slash / Power Attack /Insightful Reflexes / Improved Crit: Slash / Extend / Empower Healing
- Spellsinger version => level-ups in Cha, Toughness / Extend / Maximize / Insightful Reflexes / Improved Crit: Slash / Power Attack / Spell Penetration
- Virtuoso version => any of the above, or a mix of them (may need to take SF: Perform to get Virtuoso early, then respec out of it once you get Bard Extra Song IV)

[Dancingrage]

Thanks for the input, I'll need to re examine how I'm going to set up my bard then when I get around to it.

[th30dor]

Hello,

Kinda new to DDO and stuff, tried a little in the past, but never found a class to get past 3. Anyway, I just started again, with a Vanguard Warrior. It worked great for me until now, always being in the top for the most kills. Although kinda small(only lvl 4 until now) I was wondering what kind of gear i should look for him.

I understand the discussions about the weap, and the armor, but what "enchantments" should there be on a piece of armor, or on a ring or boots.

Also, i dont know if this really is the right place to ask, but for a warrior, how can i get a constant bull's strength? Besides potions, which are expensive atm

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=17

[tihocan]

Hello,

Kinda new to DDO and stuff, tried a little in the past, but never found a class to get past 3. Anyway, I just started again, with a Vanguard Warrior. It worked great for me until now, always being in the top for the most kills. Although kinda small(only lvl 4 until now) I was wondering what kind of gear i should look for him.

I understand the discussions about the weap, and the armor, but what "enchantments" should there be on a piece of armor, or on a ring or boots.

Also, i dont know if this really is the right place to ask, but for a warrior, how can i get a constant bull's strength? Besides potions, which are expensive atm

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=17

A full equipment guide is outside of the scope of this thread (which I'm already having trouble keeping up-to-date due to current RL requirements). On a melee you typically want to look for:
- str
- con
- resistance
- false life
- fortification
- elemental resistance
- protection while your AC matters

That's about the basics. For constant Bull's, use some +Str item (+4 items are typically ML9).

[stainer]

Hello,

Kinda new to DDO and stuff, tried a little in the past, but never found a class to get past 3. Anyway, I just started again, with a Vanguard Warrior. It worked great for me until now, always being in the top for the most kills. Although kinda small(only lvl 4 until now) I was wondering what kind of gear i should look for him.

I understand the discussions about the weap, and the armor, but what "enchantments" should there be on a piece of armor, or on a ring or boots.

Also, i dont know if this really is the right place to ask, but for a warrior, how can i get a constant bull's strength? Besides potions, which are expensive atm

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=17

You can get a 30 min bulls str from house P when you unlock the favor. If you get a wand and have the umd for it is another way, but I am guessing that isn't an option for you. You may find clickies with bull strength too, I believe.

[Irinis]

A question about bards:

I've generally thought of bards as being mostly the jack of all trades, master of none who basically can dabble in a little of everything, and I notice the paths tend towards specializing the bard in some area or another, but I don't see anything that really leads the bard towards the JOAT strengths, mostly trying to fill in another area, or anything that helps the bard with Open Lock/Disable Device.

Do you have anything that works for this sort of thing or should I look at fiddling around and making it happen? I was thinking of taking the character builder I've seen around and trying a bard with a few splashes of rogue to help with doors and traps, with a balance between Str/Dex and Chr for a 28 point build.

If there's nothing common would anyone be interested in seeing a theoretical build I could whip up and putting their experience into judging if it's worth a hoot or not?

The Axesinger bard build is the classic build for a true jack of all trades. It doesn't balance CHA however.

[riot_blood]

I've been playing DDO for almost 2 months now (I know it doesn't show in the forums, but meh, not at all active here.) and I've been using these templates by tihocan to create my characters and i just wanted to say that it has made my playing very enjoyable and easier. Thanks for this and keep up the good work.

[Anzanel]

I've been playing DDO for almost 2 months now (I know it doesn't show in the forums, but meh, not at all active here.) and I've been using these templates by tihocan to create my characters and i just wanted to say that it has made my playing very enjoyable and easier. Thanks for this and keep up the good work.

+1


Also, just curious: when will the Deepwood Sniper path be re-done? I've kind of wanted to make one since the beginning, but from what I heard they're grossly underpowered x_x I don't see anyone discussing them in the Ranger forums, anyway. Would it be a waste of time for me to try and make a Rgr/DwS before the next update? (Or whichever update "fixes" them?)

[Nagantor]

I'm currently playing a Dark Blade Rogue and must say, while those builds are usually great I think currently it's best to go for Mechanic first. Assassin just doesn't give me something really usefull on the first tier, Mechanic is a great help for those without access to very good gear, knowledge of trap locations and little money (trap parts sell well). I'll probably just switch back the enhancements to Assassin later on when I don't need the Mechanic boost anymore. But in the lower to mid levels normal sneak damage seems to be just fine.

[tihocan]

+1


Also, just curious: when will the Deepwood Sniper path be re-done? I've kind of wanted to make one since the beginning, but from what I heard they're grossly underpowered x_x I don't see anyone discussing them in the Ranger forums, anyway. Would it be a waste of time for me to try and make a Rgr/DwS before the next update? (Or whichever update "fixes" them?)

Will be after Turbine makes the Deepwood Sniper enhancement(s) worth taking. I don't know when that will be.

[tihocan]

I'm currently playing a Dark Blade Rogue and must say, while those builds are usually great I think currently it's best to go for Mechanic first. Assassin just doesn't give me something really usefull on the first tier, Mechanic is a great help for those without access to very good gear, knowledge of trap locations and little money (trap parts sell well). I'll probably just switch back the enhancements to Assassin later on when I don't need the Mechanic boost anymore. But in the lower to mid levels normal sneak damage seems to be just fine.

I see your point, it's a viable option, I could mention it in variants. Thanks!

[CrunK.]

I was looking for a 28 point Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance build. Is the default one good enough? I looked this thread over pretty good since the last update and didn't see any builds posted for it.

[Irinis]

I was looking for a 28 point Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance build. Is the default one good enough? I looked this thread over pretty good since the last update and didn't see any builds posted for it.

No but the Evoker FVS or the FVS build already in this thread is closest to what you're looking for in an offensive caster.