Revisiting paths: Builds for new players

[tihocan]

what's the difference between arcane cannon and the other sorc build (blanking on it's name)? just spell choice? feats seem pretty much the same, stats are the same, just spell choice seems to be a little different

Feats / enhancements / spells. But yes, differences are subtle... the reason is that there aren't many ways to build a straight caster, and specializing too much into a single kind of spells is a bad idea in DDO, as it may make you totally inadequate in some quests.

[Brennie]

Ninja Spy (Monk 20)

Concept: Offensive monk, with still potential for good Armor Class
Original path's flaws: Splitting level-up points between Dex and Str, not taking Weapon Finesse.
Main fixes: Converted to a Finesse build (although it may be slightly less damage against low AC targets, being Dex-based makes it possible to reach decent AC, and Air Stance is the best stance for offense). Also got rid of Combat Expertise because it is hard to fit with only 28 pt (a variant with it is proposed below).

Alignment: Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Good, Neutral, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, Lawful Good

Stats and Race (28/32 pt):
........Drow.....Dwarf......Elf.....Halfling...Human...Warforged.
.Str.....14........14........14........12........14........14....
.Dex.....18........16........18........18........16........16....
.Con.....12........16........12........14........14........14....
.Int.....10........8.........8.........8.........8.........8.....
.Wis.....14......14/16.....14/16.....14/16.....14/16.....13/15...
.Cha.....10........6.........8.........8.........8.........8.....

Ability increase every 4 levels: All in Dex (except possibly Halfling, see note below).

Special note (Halfling) You will need 13 Str to obtain Power Attack when leveling to L6. It is best to use a +1 Str tome to meet this pre-requisite (most easily obtained on the Auction House or in the DDO store). If you cannot get a tome, you can either spend your L4 level-up stat point into Str instead of Dex, or start with 13 Str by taking Con down to 12 (or on a 32 pt build Wis to 15).

Skills, except Human and Drow: Max out Concentration and Spot. Get one rank in Tumble and spend the rest of your points into Balance.
Skills, Human and Drow: Same, but max out Use Magic Device as well.

Feats (by level), except Human: Two-Weapon Fighting (1), Stunning Fist (1), Weapon Finesse (2), Toughness (3), Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness (3), Dodge (6), Power Attack (6), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (9), Improved Critical: Bludgeon (12), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (15), Stunning Blow (18)
Feats (by level), Human: Two-Weapon Fighting (1), Stunning Fist (1), Toughness (1), Weapon Finesse (2), Weapon Focus: Blunt (3), Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness (3), Dodge (6), Power Attack (6), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (9), Improved Critical: Bludgeon (12), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (15), Stunning Blow (18)

For more information about picking enhancements please read this post.
Enhancements (Monk): Adept of Rain, Adept of Wind, All-Consuming Flame, Concentration I, Grandmaster of Storms, Improved Recovery II, Jump II, Master of Thunder, Ninja Spy II, Porous Soul, Serenity (capstone), Static Charge, Touch of Death, Tumble II, Unbalancing Strike, Way of the Patient Tortoise III, Winter's Touch, Wisdom II
Enhancements (Drow): Dexterity I, Racial Toughness II
Enhancements (Dwarf): Constitution I, Racial Toughness II, Spell Defense I
Enhancements (Elf): Dexterity I, Racial Toughness II
Enhancements (Halfling): Cunning II, Dexterity I, Guile III, Hero's Companion III, Luck (Fortitude) I, Racial Toughness II
Enhancements (Human): Adaptability Dexterity I, Improved Recovery I, Racial Toughness II, Racial Toughness II, Versatility III
Enhancements (Warforged): Constitution I, Healer's Friend II, Racial Toughness II

Soloability by level:
No hireling..: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
With hireling: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

Tips:
- Your main weapon will be handwraps. Stunning handwraps are particularly useful in some content. But carry also some kamas to fight specific monsters on which your handwraps are less effective (like zombies that have DR/slash). After obtaining the Ninja Spy I enhancement, you may also use shortswords as backup weapons.
- Do not wear armor: use robes and outfits, and try to get armored bracers like the Black Widow Bracers from the Waterworks chain.
- You should be in Air Stance pretty much all the time, for the increased to-hit / reflex / AC / double-strike chance.
- Playing a monk requires a lot of button smashing, to take advantage of all your Ki special attacks (if this is something you do not enjoy, then Monk is probably not for you). Make sure you always upgrade your hotbar shortcuts with new attacks when picking new versions of enhancements. But also keep in mind that using various versions of the same attack (like Storm Strike I, II and III) can help you trigger finishing moves faster (avoiding cooldowns on individual attacks).
- This build has the potential to reach useful (even though not top-notch) AC at high level if you want to invest some time in getting the appropriate gear. So keep both Power Attack and Defensive Fighting in your hotbar, and switch between the two of them depending on the situation.
- Monk Tumble II, Monk Jump II, Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness and atleast one of either Static Charge or Porous Soul or All-Consuming Flame or Winter's Touch are required for Ninja Spy I, available at level 6. So make sure you take these enhancements before then!
- Way of the Tortoise II and Monk Ninja Spy I are required for for Ninja Spy II, available at level 12. So make sure you have those enhancements before then!

Variants:
- For higher AC, Combat Expertise (CE) is a feat worth taking (probably taken at L6 instead of Dodge, with Dodge being taken at L18). However, CE requires 13 Int (base + tomes). With a +1 Int tome and 32 pt build, this is easily done (just use the 28 pt stats with +4 Int). On a 28 pt build, you may need to take down Con by 2 points, Str by 1 (not on Halfling unless you can get a +2 Str tome for Power Attack), and Dex by 1 to be able to reach 13 Int. Remember that you can also choose to rely on Defensive Fighting instead of CE (but it gives only +2 AC instead of +3). On a Human, Combat Expertise may also be taken at L3 instead of Weapon Focus: Blunt (possibly with Improved Trip instead of Stunning Blow if you enjoy tripping ).
- Going Str-based (like the original Ninja Spy path) could work too, though there is less incentive to do so, especially because Fire stance is weaker than Air stance. It would mostly make sense on a race that does not get a Dex bonus (Human / Dwarf / Warforged).
- One may want to go for Hide / Move Silently to better fit the "Ninja" concept, even though it does not bring much to such a build. On a Human or Drow, this could be achieved by splitting points in half beteen Spot and Balance and dropping UMD. On other races, besides splitting points between Spot and Balance, Int should be increased to 10 (at the cost of -2 Con on a 28 pt build) to be able to max out both Hide and Move Silently.
- Stunning Blow may not be very effective at L18 due this build having rather low Str, although it should be somewhat useful on a two-weapon fighting build with Stunning Handwraps. It may be swapped for another feat if you find something you like better.

Color code: best to worst = green, yellow, orange, red

Here's my attempt at an Update5 Ninja Spy. Did a little digging, and it seems like Ninja spy still functions best with handwraps as opposed to shortswords.

Not much needed changing, and only a few things needed to be added or deleted.
- Added Jump II, Tumble II, and Ninja Spy II to enhancements
- Added notes about Ninja Spy Prereqs
- Added reference to shortsword use after Ninja Spy I, noting they they are at best backup weapons.
- Changed references to weighted handwraps to stunning handwraps (Which is what weighted was renamed to in U5)
- Changes Air Stance speed reference to double-strike
- Deleted reference to Weighted bug.
- Deleted reference to 30 point build (No longer an issue, it seems).
- Deleted reference to 3% (+6) weighted handwraps. Thanks to Darkrok.

The tweaks were fairly minor, as the only feat needed for ninja spy is dodge, which you already happen to have taken at level 6 (which works out fantastically!) Everything else was just adding enhancements and updating with new info.

It is worth noting that while sneaking, Ninja Spy monks gain 10% sneak speed per teir, and increased passive Ki generation, not to mention possible sneak attacks. This makes hide/move silently a slightly more appealing option, except that the passive ki gen works even without any ranks, and sneak dissapears quickly in battle anyway. If sneaking turns out to be a lot more excellent on Ninja Spy than anticipated, the Skills may need ot be altered.

Also, as a side note to Tihocan: Sorry for having to answer questions in your thread. It feels inappropriate for me to be sidetracking in that way!

As always, hope this help!

[Darkrok]

Here's my attempt at an Update5 Ninja Spy. Did a little digging, and it seems like Ninja spy still functions best with handwraps as opposed to shortswords.

Not much needed changing, and only a few things needed to be added or deleted.
- Added Jump II, Tumble II, and Ninja Spy II to enhancements
- Added notes about Ninja Spy Prereqs
- Added reference to shortsword use after Ninja Spy I, noting they they are at best backup weapons.
- Changed references to weighted handwraps to stunning handwraps (Which is what weighted was renamed to in U5)
- Changes Air Stance speed reference to double-strike
- Deleted reference to Weighted bug.
- Deleted reference to 30 point build (No longer an issue, it seems).

The tweaks were fairly minor, as the only feat needed for ninja spy is dodge, which you already happen to have taken at level 6 (which works out fantastically!) Everything else was just adding enhancements and updating with new info.

It is worth noting that while sneaking, Ninja Spy monks gain 10% sneak speed per teir, and increased passive Ki generation, not to mention possible sneak attacks. This makes hide/move silently a slightly more appealing option, except that the passive ki gen works even without any ranks, and sneak dissapears quickly in battle anyway. If sneaking turns out to be a lot more excellent on Ninja Spy than anticipated, the Skills may need ot be altered.

Also, as a side note to Tihocan: Sorry for having to answer questions in your thread. It feels inappropriate for me to be sidetracking in that way!

As always, hope this help!

Great work! On the stunning handwraps change I would take out the comment that the wraps have to be +6 or better to start using them. Given the change that was made any stunning handwrap that are appropriate for your level will work well since the proc rate is the same and all that changes is the DC for the save.

[tihocan]

Also, as a side note to Tihocan: Sorry for having to answer questions in your thread. It feels inappropriate for me to be sidetracking in that way!

Uh? Everyone is welcome to answer questions

Thanks for the build btw

[iceman112163]

Tihocan

I'm trying a WF Necromancer as from your changes and I hope it works out well. I must ask your opinion of Augment Summoning. I expect this should help a lot with a wizard and his small army of minions. Just to inform you of my situation, I've worked up far enough to have bought the WF as well as 32 point build and Veteran status but not progressed very far after that.

Given what the feat seems to be about, I would think this is a great one for a wizard first, sorcere/favoured soul second and cleric last. I am also unable to confirm but there have been threads stating this also buffs any creature/monster that is charmed as well so the bard can potentially benefit from this feat.

Can I ask where you feel this is an appropriate place and which feat would be best to change with?

Edit: I changed around the feats for the first 4 levels. I went with Toughness, Mental Toughness and Augment Summoning. At thrid level, Spell Focus Necromancy will be added and I'll look at your list and pick accordingly to what I hope will be good choices. All based on a human build. I'll look at a WF as well, probably go with Toughness and Augment Summoning then SF:Necromany at 3rd.

[Brennie]

Great work! On the stunning handwraps change I would take out the comment that the wraps have to be +6 or better to start using them. Given the change that was made any stunning handwrap that are appropriate for your level will work well since the proc rate is the same and all that changes is the DC for the save.

Good advice, I'll do that. I was under the erroneous assumption that only the name had changed.

I am also unable to confirm but there have been threads stating this also buffs any creature/monster that is charmed as well so the bard can potentially benefit from this feat.

While I'm at it might as well answer a question!

Augment Summoning affects Pets (Iron Companion/Pale Master skeletons), summons, charms (including suggestion spells, ooze puppet, and spells of similar effect, i believe), AND hirelings.

Your pale master may find himself using some of the Charm-type spells more often if it takes Augment Summoning, and will also find a bit more use out of hirelings (atleast they won't die as easily, heh). The benefit from Augment Summoning is small but far-reaching, it seems.

[iceman112163]

Thank you Brennie, I'll try it out for a first round selectin of feats. See how things go with charming now as well.

[Oliaga]

Bah, I replied to this a few days ago but it appears my post got ate.

Empower vs. Heighten at L9 on Dynamic Hand: I guess that's a matter of personal preference. I know I pretty much always keep maximize+empower active at this level. Taking note to mention it as a variant!

You do? That's quite surprising. Will have to try running around with them both up and see how much I can actually do before running dry.

Blackbones: can't remember if they are vulnerable to other elemental damage? I personally tend to web them then beat on them with a staff...

Unfortunately, I have yet to succesfully web a blackbone skeleton. Immune to fire/frost, take normal acid/elec/force. Wondering what spell would be the highest gain for lowest loss to pick up some non fire/frost damaging for these guys. (Currently level 10)

PK: It's not always easy to land, need to find the good targets (those who don't have too high will nor fort). Enervating first makes it land better too.

If DDO uses the same rules for saves, the list of classes and types with bad fort and will progression is awfully slim - rogues are the only class, and air/fire elementals, constructs, humanoid (but usually go off class levels anyway). And constructs are immune to mind affecting anyway. Plus, the build doesn't have enervation until level 13 - 1 level before dropping PK anyway.

Dimension door is very useful in a few quests.

Any specifics? Like I said, I've seen this used to get people back to the start instead of walking or recalling - not sure why this is worth a spell slot. (though everyone seems to take it)

Scrolls of Reconstruct: yep, only for warforged. Not mandatory, but people will appreciate it (wands don't cut it out at high level).

I think you misunderstood - I'm asking, if at high levels, people will expect a fleshy sorc to know reconstruct for healing WF or not. As to the scroll idea, carrying around scrolls of that seem kinda expensive for a relatively low impact (scroll cast time would prolly make it for out of combat use mostly).

Mind Fog: Situational, but can be handy to combine e.g. for Otto's Sphere of Dancing, or to prepare a mass Charm / Hold.

Since it allows a will save (and ends when they walk out) I'm curious if it's better then just casting the spell in question twice. How big is this thing anyway?

Horrid Wilting: For stuff immune to elemental damage.

Am I correct in assuming that the only thing to boost the damage on this will be potency/efficacy? Also is there nothing that makes enervation more effective?

Speaking of enervation - any reason you don't have it getting replaced at level 20 with the addition of energy drain?

[tihocan]

Tihocan

I'm trying a WF Necromancer as from your changes and I hope it works out well. I must ask your opinion of Augment Summoning. I expect this should help a lot with a wizard and his small army of minions. Just to inform you of my situation, I've worked up far enough to have bought the WF as well as 32 point build and Veteran status but not progressed very far after that.

Given what the feat seems to be about, I would think this is a great one for a wizard first, sorcere/favoured soul second and cleric last. I am also unable to confirm but there have been threads stating this also buffs any creature/monster that is charmed as well so the bard can potentially benefit from this feat.

Can I ask where you feel this is an appropriate place and which feat would be best to change with?

Edit: I changed around the feats for the first 4 levels. I went with Toughness, Mental Toughness and Augment Summoning. At thrid level, Spell Focus Necromancy will be added and I'll look at your list and pick accordingly to what I hope will be good choices. All based on a human build. I'll look at a WF as well, probably go with Toughness and Augment Summoning then SF:Necromany at 3rd.

Augment Summoning seems like a good feat for solo play at low levels. I wouldn't bother with it later on though, because summoned creatures & charmed creatures are used more for diversion than actual damage (I haven't actually tried by myself the higher level Pale Master summons, but I seriously doubt I'd change my mind if I did). So if you take it, keep in mind you'll probably want to respec out of it some day. Note that Undead do not benefit from increased fortification.

If I were to fit it within my feat plan, for Human I'd just replace Mental Toughness with Augment Summoning at L1. On Warforged I'd do:
Toughness (1), Augment Summoning (1), Extend (3), Maximize (5), Spell Focus: Necromancy (6), Empower (9), Heighten (10), Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy (12), Quicken (15), Spell Penetration (15), Greater Spell Penetration (18) Mental Toughness (20)

[tihocan]

You do? That's quite surprising. Will have to try running around with them both up and see how much I can actually do before running dry.

Could just be a matter of playstyle. I don't cast many damage spells, and when I do, I want them to be effective

Unfortunately, I have yet to succesfully web a blackbone skeleton. Immune to fire/frost, take normal acid/elec/force. Wondering what spell would be the highest gain for lowest loss to pick up some non fire/frost damaging for these guys. (Currently level 10)

Ok I see, my build doesn't have Heighten until L12 (which helps with web), and no meaningful non fire/frost damage spell until Horrid Wilting. You have no idea how much I hate doing spell selection on a sorcerer, I can spend hours on it, and in the end it'll still have holes in it... I guess it means devs did a good job at making Wizards worth playing
I think my suggestion right now would be to swap Fireball for Acid Blast. I'm going to take note of this issue and see what I may change in the build to make this better (I'm currently going through all notes I took, but going in alphabetical class order, so Sorcerer won't be next).

If DDO uses the same rules for saves, the list of classes and types with bad fort and will progression is awfully slim - rogues are the only class, and air/fire elementals, constructs, humanoid (but usually go off class levels anyway). And constructs are immune to mind affecting anyway. Plus, the build doesn't have enervation until level 13 - 1 level before dropping PK anyway.

Yep, not that many of them, but you can still find monsters whose "strong" save isn't that strong
And I guess you'd need to use Enervation scrolls instead.

Any specifics? Like I said, I've seen this used to get people back to the start instead of walking or recalling - not sure why this is worth a spell slot. (though everyone seems to take it)

In the Twilight Forge, people pretty much require someone with Dimension Door to solve the Green side puzzle (although it can supposedly be done without, I've never seen it).
In Rainbow in the Dark, it is handy to ddoor after getting the first key, to avoid some fights. It is also useful if someone joins late and needs light to make his way to the party.
In Against the Demon Queen, using ddoor can let you skip the room boss fights, as well as escape the Pit if you chose the wrong room.
In quests with respawn in end room (like Monastery of the Scorpion on elite), having ddoor allows you to recall safely once the quest is done.
In Wizard King, if you are not going for optionals, ddooring out when you realize you are in the wrong tower will save time.
In all Vale of Twilight quests, if you exit through the entrance (which you reach by ddoor after completing the quest), you can recall in Meridia, while if you recall from quest, you'll end up in the Twelve.
Finally, it's a great emergency life saver, to avoid a total wipe. If you see the party is losing control, gathering soul stones and ddooring can save a lot of time and XP (a typical example is in New Invasion end fight). That's true both in party, or in solo play (if you realize you drew too much aggro).

In the end it's a spell you won't use often, but it can be quite handy.

I think you misunderstood - I'm asking, if at high levels, people will expect a fleshy sorc to know reconstruct for healing WF or not. As to the scroll idea, carrying around scrolls of that seem kinda expensive for a relatively low impact (scroll cast time would prolly make it for out of combat use mostly).

No, people will expect you to carry scroll, not to have the spell memorized. You can perfectly heal (or help healing) a Warforged melee in combat with Reconstruct scrolls. Scroll cost isn't an issue at higher levels.

Since it allows a will save (and ends when they walk out) I'm curious if it's better then just casting the spell in question twice. How big is this thing anyway?

I'm not sure of the stacking rules of multiple spheres of Dancing, but I'd expect 2 of them in the same place not to be more effective than 1. And it's more convenient to have all monsters dancing in a single sphere (so you can e.g. burn them all with one single firewall), unable to break off it, than running them around two locations from which they'll break more often. For my Mass Charm / Hold example, I guess casting twice may work about the same, unless you were planning to cast it multiple times (on different enemies) in the first place, in which case a single Mind Fog will be more effective.
Overall, it's definitely a situational spell, you can swap it out for something else if you want.

Oh, and it's about the size of an Otto's dancing sphere.

Am I correct in assuming that the only thing to boost the damage on this will be potency/efficacy? Also is there nothing that makes enervation more effective?

Potency / efficacy, as well as arcane lore for crits.
Increased spell penetration is the only thing that matters for Enervation, on monsters with SR.

Speaking of enervation - any reason you don't have it getting replaced at level 20 with the addition of energy drain?

I can't remember for sure, most likely I forgot about it. It's possible also that I thought it would be nice to have both (I'm personally using both on a wizard, to debuff faster monsters with very high saves). Adding another note to double-check this

Thanks a lot for the feedback!

[lorkar]

would be a good idea to make a 14 bard/6 ranger?
6 lvl of ranger to take the tempest pre. and 14 bard for buffing warchanter, CC, spells
good idea?

[tihocan]

would be a good idea to make a 14 bard/6 ranger?
6 lvl of ranger to take the tempest pre. and 14 bard for buffing warchanter, CC, spells
good idea?

It used to be a good idea. However, Tempest I is really not worth 3 feats anymore. It remains a decent build, since it's fun to have Ram's Might & Manyshot, but it's not clear it's worth the loss of Inspire Heroics and Otto's Irresistible Dance. Overall, I'd say the popular 2 Figther + 2 (or 3) Rogue splash is more effective.
I have such a 14/6 build and I'm waiting to see what's up with Warchanter II/III before reincarnating to fix him.

[Oliaga]

An update to the Sorcerer: Hit 11th, took Acid Blast/Enervation/Cloudkill. Fireball is just too nice for fire vulnerable creatures when I don't want to wait for firewall. Will probably swap Acid Blast for Rage (I'm guessing that's an assumed buff at high levels?) when I get Horrid Wilting or maybe Acid Fog (speaking of which, there's another curiosity about the future - what's the big deal with Acid Fog? Why that over Disintegrate or Chain Lightning? I don't even know where to find the quests you mentioned for dimension door yet, so shuffling my 4ths around to get enervation now. Loving enervation+PK for really obnoxious targets with a ton of health and/or DR. I actually found enervation + PK (or dismiss/banish from cleric) better then cone of cold for the fire elementals in Taming the Flames elite, mainly due to cone of cold's painfully slow cast animation (and fire elementals tendency to duck away as I'm casting. It does eat the mana a bit though.

As to scrolls, will take your word for it - for now, it's been a struggle keeping cash around from constantly trying to keep my selection of potency/lore/inferno etc weapons relevant (and the weapon collection for the rogue is trying too).

About SR - I haven't run into SR much at all yet (mainly the drow in Searing Heights) - and I have yet to put any points into the SR enhancements - at what level will I basically be insane not to have some of those? (SR feats still 4 levels away).

And back to the rogue I mentioned - I know you only briefly touch on gear for most characters, but I think the 3 rogue builds deserve a little extra focus on gear - a new player isn't likely to know how dreadfully important having level-relevant search/DD items is for a leveling rogue - I played PnP, so the concept came naturally to me, but it might not to others. It's also not unreasonable to find cheap thieves tools for auction, often a better quality then you can get with Free Agents favor. I've also found Spot worthless in any kind of elite content - it rarely warns me of anything (even with my Spot item on - go go wisdom dump stat vs good int) - wheras a "this is the first time I've done the quest, just stop and swing your weapon where I need to search" or checking maps on DDOwiki has been far more reliable (things that new players might not know).

Either way, groups tend to expect rogues to keep them from dying on traps (and sometimes blame you when they charge through them), and to be able to provide the 15% bonus when possible - a rogue who hasn't kept gear current as they level might find themselves unceremoniously discarded the first time they search for a trap and can't find it, even with everyone spamming them with buffs.

Again, thanks for the responses and the effort you put into this.

[tihocan]

Thanks a lot for the feedback Oliaga, it's great to have the point of view of a new player. I may end up doing a few tweaks to the spell selection based on this

Players will definitely enjoy Rage, though they don't necessarily assume a Sorcerer will carry it.
Acid Fog is to combine Damage over Time with slowed movement and concealment for allies. You can for instance cast a firewall in the middle of an acid fog, then kite monsters inside it, and it'll be easier and more effective than a firewall alone.
Scroll-wise, don't sweat it. Only buy them once you can afford them.
SR will be mostly important when you hit the Vale (probably around L15).
Thanks for the Rogue tips too I'll definitely add some of it to the Rogue stuff later.

[lorkar]

http://alturl.com/sskfu can i do this in a lvl 18 ranger in a raid full of experienced people

[Zachski]

Warchanter (L18 Bard/L1 Fighter/L1 Barbarian)

Feats (by level), Human: Toughness (1), Extend (1), Weapon Focus: Slash (3), Power Attack (6), Two-Handed Fighting (9), Improved Crit: Slash (10), Improved Two-Handed Fighting (12), Greater Two-Handed Fighting (15), Empower Healing (18)

I decided to make this guy on another server for an RP guild I'm in (focusing on flavor without sacrificing ability), but I decided to do something different.

Since I'm going for 2 fighter levels instead of 1 fighter, 1 barbarian, I will have an extra feat as a human. (It fits the character better since a Barbarian seems less like something you are taught and more something you are, and I don't see my bard coming from the northlands. Furthermore, I CAN see him taking lessons in fighting so he can get in closer to the action for creating better tales)

So, then, here is what I was thinking of doing. Change is in bold.

Feats (by level), Human: Toughness (1), Extend (1), Weapon Focus: Slash (2), Mental Toughness (3) Power Attack (6), Two-Handed Fighting (9), Improved Crit: Slash (10), Improved Two-Handed Fighting (12), Greater Two-Handed Fighting (15), Empower Healing (18)

Basically, outside of Weapon Specialization (which adds 1 damage, right?), Mental Toughness was the only other feat I could think of to add. Moving Weapon Focus to level 2 is already final. In any case, this should boost my self-healing by a significant enough amount that I end up surviving a little longer than other warchanters.

I will add, one of the reasons I picked 2 fighter (outside of flavor) is that I don't like the Barbarian rage. It prevents me from healing, and it seems like one of the major advantages of Warchanter is that you're a self-healing melee. When you rage, you're basically stuck in barbarian mode unless you cancel it. Unless you're a Warforged Chanter, I don't see Rage being too useful.

In the end, my DPS will have diminished a bit due to not having Rage, but my survivability will increase a little due to having more SP as well as being able too heal whenever I want.

However, if anyone has a better idea for a feat instead of Mental Toughness, I'll be happy to hear it

[tihocan]

I was unsure whether to list Undying Call and Follower of the Undying Court under cleric enhancements, elven enhancements, or leave them out entirely and put in a "variant" footnote pertaining to elves. I decided to put them under Cleric Enhancements, but if you feel that it is too confused or cluttered, feel free to add an elf-optional footnote under variants.

Nothing needed to be deleted in this one, the changes were more additions than anything else. One again, my additions in Deep Sky Blue, to make it easier to see what i changed

Thanks again, I just updated my build to pretty much the same thing. I need to add a "Thanks" section to give you credit, will be done later

I actually recommended Unyielding Sovereignty for Elf as well, because IMO once you can raise dead by yourself, the heal is more useful overall.
I didn't suggest Cha II, I really don't think it's worth it unless you want a good Turn Undead build, in which case you'd start with a higher Cha.

[tihocan]

However, if anyone has a better idea for a feat instead of Mental Toughness, I'll be happy to hear it

MT is a good idea if you're planning to play as a backup healer sometimes. Otherwise you won't need those extra SPs since your only spells will be buffs that won't empty your SP bar.
You could take Empower Healing instead for now, and once you are L18, think if you really want MT or another feat like Weapon Spec.

[Zachski]

MT is a good idea if you're planning to play as a backup healer sometimes. Otherwise you won't need those extra SPs since your only spells will be buffs that won't empty your SP bar.
You could take Empower Healing instead for now, and once you are L18, think if you really want MT or another feat like Weapon Spec.

Well... Empower Healing WOULD be better, actually. Making my healing spells 50% more effective is better than simply having one more healing spell, lol

I'll do it that way instead. As for the level 18 feat... I'll figure it out when the time comes.

EDIT: Actually, no, I don't think it works out well. A bard is SP starved at these low levels. 50% healing isn't much when it doubles the cost of the spell, meaning that it'd be better to just cast three CLW rather than two EmpowerHeal'd CLW.

Instead, I'm going to shift things over a bit. I'm getting Power Attack at level 3, Two Handed Fighting at level 6, then Empower Healing at level 9

[tihocan]

Well... Empower Healing WOULD be better, actually. Making my healing spells 50% more effective is better than simply having one more healing spell, lol

I'll do it that way instead. As for the level 18 feat... I'll figure it out when the time comes.

EDIT: Actually, no, I don't think it works out well. A bard is SP starved at these low levels. 50% healing isn't much when it doubles the cost of the spell, meaning that it'd be better to just cast three CLW rather than two EmpowerHeal'd CLW.

Instead, I'm going to shift things over a bit. I'm getting Power Attack at level 3, Two Handed Fighting at level 6, then Empower Healing at level 9

Yep sorry, Empower Healing shouldn't be used on CLW, I didn't think of when to take it exactly, just that you could start using it earlier than L18
Actually you'd probably be best taking THF at L3 and PA at L6, because typically PA isn't very good to use early on (the extra miss % offsets the extra damag).