Revisiting paths: Builds for new players

[Jinteki]

Well, first of all, currently the Deepwood Sniper line of enhancements sucks. If you want to go with ranged combat, make an Arcane Archer, not a Deepwood Sniper (nor a Tempest).

You can make a good archer without any TR. It's true the Ranger's past life is pretty cool, so you could TR 3 times for +6 to damage with ranged weapon, but it's something you would only do if you can handle the XP grind. You're the only one who knows whether you are up for it or not (personally... I wouldn't).

It seems what you call "sniping" is exploiting the AI to kill stuff at range without them running towards you. It's not something you can do in many places. When ranging, expect that most of the time, your target will go after you. And when in a group, avoid kiting monsters that the rest of the party could easily kill if you weren't running them around in circle

I just want Deepwood Sniper for fun, for those times when I'm doing Slayers and just wasting time alone. I don't, by any means, hope to turn Deepwood Sniper into a viable combat path. No, I know very well that sniping is nearly impossible in roughly 80% of the quests in DDO.

What I want is (your) Tempest for when I'm questing and Deepwood Sniper for when I'm just screwing around, like how a Bard, Wizard or Sorceror would run around dancing/greasing for the amusement. I hope I'm a little clearer this time. ^_^;

[Brennie]

I haven't seriously thought about it yet. Some are likely to change, some may just be "variants". I haven't been following the Lamannia stuff very closely, so not sure yet what will happen exactly

I greatly look forward to seeing them!

Although I'm notoriously flaky, if i can do anything to help (Such as distill update features into "how this would affect Tihocans build" chunks, with brennie-flavored tweaking advice) lemme know. I'd be happy to contribute. Or, y'know... think really hard about contributing, write a bit, and then decide i need to go play more DDO >_>

[tihocan]

What I want is (your) Tempest for when I'm questing and Deepwood Sniper for when I'm just screwing around, like how a Bard, Wizard or Sorceror would run around dancing/greasing for the amusement. I hope I'm a little clearer this time. ^_^;

You can only have one PrE line at the same time from the same class, so you can't have both Tempest and Deepwood Sniper since those are both Ranger PrE's.

[tihocan]

I greatly look forward to seeing them!

Although I'm notoriously flaky, if i can do anything to help (Such as distill update features into "how this would affect Tihocans build" chunks, with brennie-flavored tweaking advice) lemme know. I'd be happy to contribute. Or, y'know... think really hard about contributing, write a bit, and then decide i need to go play more DDO >_>

Thanks for the offer, I'm going to try to be fast enough with this (which means it'll probably take forever ), feel free to offer suggestions as you wish, I will at least link to them if I think they make sense but I end up going in another direction.

[tihocan]

Reply to PM by MrMundo because it says I can't send you pms for some reason (might want to check your PM settings).

I like to heal but the D&D world is complicated. I'm still very new, haven't gotten a character past 3. After finding your Build post I deleted that character. Anyway, I've got a question about the Clerics build "Warpriest of Siberys" & "The Font of Healing".

The Solo Ability of the Warpriest is green at all levels while the Font Cleric is a bit more wild.

From what I understand the Font is more support based & excel at healing. The Warpriest excels in melee combat but are just as well as healing.

I want to be able to solo effectively. I also enjoy healing & wouldn't mind switching roles. Is the Warpriest a build where i can do that? to rephrase; Is the Warpriest just as effective as the Font at healing in groups?

In your warpriest tips section you say:
"Even though you can fight, people will typically expect you to act as the party healer. If for some reason you do not want to take this role, make sure you make it clear before starting the quest (and note that this build is meant to be a party healer)."

I feel a bit silly asking but I just wanted to make sure that the Warpriest build can effectively heal in groups.

Yes, the warpriest can effectively heal in groups (this is why I said "this build is meant to be a party healer").

Obviously the Font of Healing is more focused towards this role, which mostly means it will be able to provide more heals for a longer period of time without resting. But you can do just fine on a more melee-focused cleric like the Warpriest.

[Jinteki]

You can only have one PrE line at the same time from the same class, so you can't have both Tempest and Deepwood Sniper since those are both Ranger PrE's.

As I've never TR'd before, I don't know the specifics. I was hoping reincarnating from a Tempest would help me keep the benefits. I'm guessing that's a negative, now. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Also, I have a few questions concerning the Tempest build. Why take Oversized so late compared to Improved Crit? Why not take Fighter a level or two earlier? Why put points in Concentration? Why no points in Search or Disable Device? Why take Favored: Elemental so late? Why take Favored: Construct instead of Favored: Giant, Dragon, Magical Beast or even Vermin? (I hate spiders and scorpions. >.>)

[Adalita]

As I've never TR'd before, I don't know the specifics. I was hoping reincarnating from a Tempest would help me keep the benefits. I'm guessing that's a negative, now. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Also, I have a few questions concerning the Tempest build. Why take Oversized so late compared to Improved Crit? Why not take Fighter a level or two earlier? Why put points in Concentration? Why no points in Search or Disable Device? Why take Favored: Elemental so late? Why take Favored: Construct instead of Favored: Giant, Dragon, Magical Beast or even Vermin? (I hate spiders and scorpions. >.>)

For true reincarnation you start your character from scratch, but with more build points (34pt for 1st reincarnation, 36pt for 2nd and beyond), plus you get access to the past life feats based on your dominant class of your previous character (basically what you had the most levels in).

FYI Tempest rangers are still very effective archers, they receive bow strength (add strength mod to bow damage), rapid shot, many shot, precise shot and improved precise shot as class feats. No other build apart from Arcane Archer makes a better archer (maybe fighter if you really spec-ed it that way).

Concentration is there because a ranger is likely to be casting while in melee. Personally I would regard points here as optional, you can certainly spend points in DD and search if you want to have trap skills. Just be aware that being a decent trapsmith requires a certain investment in gear as well as, such as lockpicks, items to boost DD, etc. Not everyone can be bothered with that.

Other points: improved crit doubles your threat range, which in effect doubles the rate at which you score critical hits which greatly increases your DPS. Oversized 2WF only removes the penalty for weilding normal weapons in boths hands rather than a normal in you main and light in the off-hand. Its really only there as it is a pre-req for Tempest III enhancement, which can't be taken until level 18 anyway.

In choosing the favored enemy you need to think about not just how many of a given type you will face, but how difficult they are to take down. While you will face plenty of vermin, they aren't difficult foes. Favored enemy: undead is a no-brainer because you will face lots of them, and there will be plenty of tough ones. You can also do feat swaps to change your favored enemy. Here is a good list of enemy types: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Damag...nsters_by_Type. Note that magical beast sounds like a useful favored enemy, but not many mobs actually fall into that category.

If I could give one piece of advice it would be that all these are very solid builds, so the best thing you can do is pick the one that seems most appealing and jump in.

[Brennie]

Heres the simplest one (since its 2am and i don't feel like doing the harder Mechanic revise :P), but this is how i would revise the Dark Blade:

Fighter level dropped in favor of the capstone, power attack bumped to 18 replacing OTWF on non human, while OTWF is bumped to 18 replacing weapon focus: peirce for humans. All fighter-related entries deleted, and Rogue Deadly Shadows added to enhancement list (I'm assuming you left a few AP wiggle room in your builds? If not, i may need to re-tailor the enhancements).

The Dark Blade (L20 Rogue)

Concept: Good damage dealer, decent survivability, and of course able to take care of traps and locks.
Original path's flaws: No Power Attack (leading to a serious lack of DPS when unable to sneak attack), no Toughness (rogues are somewhat squishy), Weapon Focus instead of Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (the latter gives an extra +1 to-hit in the common situation of dual wielding non light weapons).
Main fixes: Revised feats for better damage output and survivability.
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Good, Neutral, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, Lawful Good

Stats and Race (28/32 pt):
........Drow.....Dwarf......Elf.....Halfling...Human...Warforged.
.Str.....14........14........14........12........14........14....
.Dex.....18......16/17.......18........18......16/17.....16/17...
.Con.....12........16......12/14.......14........14........16....
.Int.....16........14........14......14/15.......14........14....
.Wis.....8.........8.........8........8/9.......8/9.......6/7....
.Cha.....10.......6/7........8........8/9........8.........6.....

Ability increase every 4 levels: All in Dex (except on a Halfling, where the first increase at L4 should be spent into Str if you are unable to obtain a +1 Str tome to qualify for Power Attack).

Skills (except Human and Drow): Max Search, Disable Device, UMD, Open Locks, Spot, Balance, Diplomacy, Hide, Move Silently. Split your remaining points equally between Jump and Tumble.
Skills (Human and Drow): Same, but you should be able to get both Jump and Tumble instead of splitting points between them.

Feats (by level), except Human: Two-Weapon Fighting (1), Weapon Finesse (3), Toughness (6), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (9), Improved Evasion (10), Improved Critical: Pierce (12), Crippling Strike (13), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (15), Skill Mastery (16), Power Attack (18), Slippery Mind (19)
Feats (by level), Human: Two-Weapon Fighting (1), Toughness (1), Weapon Finesse (3), Power Attack (6), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (9), Improved Evasion (10), Improved Critical: Pierce (12), Crippling Strike (13), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (15), Skill Mastery (16), Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (18), Slippery Mind (19)

For more information about picking enhancements please read this post.
Enhancements (Rogue): Assassin III, Damage Boost II, Dexterity II, Haste Boost III, Hide II, Move Silently II, Rogue Deadly Shadow, Search I, Skill Boost III (except Human), Sneak Attack Accuracy IV, Sneak Attack Training IV, Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancements (Drow): Dexterity I, Enchantment Resistance I, Melee Attack I, Melee Damage I, Perception I, Racial Toughness II
Enhancements (Dwarf): Constitution I, Kundarak Search I, Racial Toughness II, Spell Defense II
Enhancements (Elf): Aerenal Melee Attack I, Aerenal Melee Damage I, Dexterity I, Enchantment Resistance I, Perception I, Racial Toughness II
Enhancements (Halfling): Cunning III, Dexterity I, Guile III, Luck (Reflex) I, Racial Toughness II
Enhancements (Human): Adaptability Dexterity I, Improved Recovery I, Racial Toughness II, Versatility III
Enhancements (Warforged): Constitution I, Construct Thinking I, Hardiness I, Healer's Friend II, Racial Toughness II

Soloability by level:
No hireling..: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
With hireling: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

Tips:
- Early on, dual-wield a rapier in your main hand with a shortsword or dagger in your off-hand. Around mid levels you should be able to switch to dual rapiers without missing too much.
- Use Diplomacy to politely ask your opponents to attack someone else. This will let you land sneak attacks more reliably.
- You do not have to sneak to land sneak attacks. Read this page for more information on sneak attacks.
- If you ever get to the point (around L16) where you start running the Shroud raid regularly, consider crafting a Radiance rapier. It is an awesome weapon for such a build.
- Ultimately you would want to reach 39 UMD to be able to reliably use Heal scrolls. This can be achieved from 23 (base skill at L20) + 1 (Skill Mastery) + 3 (16 Cha with +6 item and +2 Cha tome) + 4 (Greater Heroism) + 2 (Head of Good Fortune) + 6 (exceptional bonus from Shroud raid item), which are reasonable items to obtain if you get all the way to level 20. In the meantime, accept you may fail some checks and rely on your skill boost to make it less likely.
- Your Spot skill will be a bit low in the early levels. If you want to spot traps, try to get your hands on an item boosting this skill, and possibly invest a few action points in enhancements increasing it (probably getting rid of them later when you can spot traps reliably enough).

Variants:
- Another very good option is to go Strength-based instead of finesse. In which case you would swap Weapon Finesse for Khopesh proficiency and Improved Critical: Pierce for the Slash version (Elves/Drow may decide to use rapiers instead of Kopesh, taking Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting instead of Power Attack at 18, and moving Power Attack to replace Weapon Finesse at level 3). Your main stat would be Str, while Dex should be just enough so you can pick the Two-Weapon, Improved Two-Weapon and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feats (with base score, level-up stat increases and tomes, it must be 15 for TWF, and 17 for ITWF and GTWF). Being strength-based means higher damage output, at the cost of reduced reflex saves and AC. Races without a Dex bonus (Human, Warforged and Dwarf) would benefit from it most.
- It is possible to splash a single level of fighter in order to gain martial weapon proficiency, a bonus feat, and access to the Fighter Toughness I enhancement. Doing so would mean you cannot gain Rogue Deadly Shadows capstone enhancement (+2 int and +4d6 sneak attack damage), will lose 2 to your assassinate DC, and will have slightly lower skill totals from CrossClassing skills with fighter's low skillpoints. A fighter splash build can be found HERE
- Although overall the Bluff skill is currently not worth investing into, it may be improved some day. And if you are planning to solo a lot, it can be somewhat useful to land more sneak attacks. To get Bluff, split some points between Balance, Jump and Tumble (instead of just Jump and Tumble) so that you can max out Bluff. Among Balance, Jump and Tumble, Balance is the most important, while you can stop investing in Jump and Tumble once you are comfortable with respectively how high you can jump, and from how high you can fall without taking too much damage. Note that a 40 Jump skill (with buffs) is the maximum you need, and at L18 you can obtain a Jump clicky that gives you +30 to it.

Color code: best to worst = green, yellow, orange, red

My changes and additions in Deep Sky Blue so you can spot them easier. Couldn't figure out how to color deletions >_> Sufficed to say Fighter levels dissapeared, reference to fighter levels dissapeared, considerations of what to do with weapon focus: peirce on a human dissapeared. Bits and peices that no longer worked (Dwarves using dwarven axes, for example) have also dissapeared.

I hope this meets with your satisfaction (And please feel free to rework my talky bits. Not feeling very poetic when passed 2am!)

[tihocan]

As I've never TR'd before, I don't know the specifics. I was hoping reincarnating from a Tempest would help me keep the benefits. I'm guessing that's a negative, now. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Well, you can TR as a Tempest and get the benefit to bow damage. It just has nothing to do with the Deepwood Sniper PrE. And unless you really play a lot, it's really not worth it on a Tempest who won't be using his bow that much.

Also, I have a few questions concerning the Tempest build. Why take Oversized so late compared to Improved Crit? Why not take Fighter a level or two earlier? Why put points in Concentration? Why no points in Search or Disable Device? Why take Favored: Elemental so late? Why take Favored: Construct instead of Favored: Giant, Dragon, Magical Beast or even Vermin? (I hate spiders and scorpions. >.>)

Oversized TWF is taken late because feats taken before are more important. Improved Crit has a significant impact in DPS (and ability to land on-crit effects) and should always be taken asap. If you have trouble hitting stuff without OTWF, you may just use a light weapon in off-hand for some time.

Concentration is for self-heal in the middle of combat. I know some people skip it on Rangers, but it can be quite useful when soloing in some places, and since the build can afford it easily, I picked it.
No points in Search / DD because not enough skill points available with those stats. The "Variants" section says how you can slightly change the build to get them if you want.
FE: Elemental is taken late simply because I think other ones are more important earlier. Feel free to switch them around though, it's not a huge deal.
You don't fight enough Dragons, Magical Beasts and Vermin to be worth the FE. Giant is a good choice. I went with construct because many are immune to crits, so that increasing the base damage is more important than vs. crit-able foes. But you can switch it out for Giant, that works too

[tihocan]

I hope this meets with your satisfaction (And please feel free to rework my talky bits. Not feeling very poetic when passed 2am!)

Thanks, I took note to look into it (no time now)

[Jinteki]

Well, you can TR as a Tempest and get the benefit to bow damage. It just has nothing to do with the Deepwood Sniper PrE. And unless you really play a lot, it's really not worth it on a Tempest who won't be using his bow that much.


Oversized TWF is taken late because feats taken before are more important. Improved Crit has a significant impact in DPS (and ability to land on-crit effects) and should always be taken asap. If you have trouble hitting stuff without OTWF, you may just use a light weapon in off-hand for some time.

Concentration is for self-heal in the middle of combat. I know some people skip it on Rangers, but it can be quite useful when soloing in some places, and since the build can afford it easily, I picked it.
No points in Search / DD because not enough skill points available with those stats. The "Variants" section says how you can slightly change the build to get them if you want.
FE: Elemental is taken late simply because I think other ones are more important earlier. Feel free to switch them around though, it's not a huge deal.
You don't fight enough Dragons, Magical Beasts and Vermin to be worth the FE. Giant is a good choice. I went with construct because many are immune to crits, so that increasing the base damage is more important than vs. crit-able foes. But you can switch it out for Giant, that works too

Okay. Those are all easy to understand, even for someone as stubborn as I am. Thanks.

[Jinteki]

For true reincarnation you start your character from scratch, but with more build points (34pt for 1st reincarnation, 36pt for 2nd and beyond), plus you get access to the past life feats based on your dominant class of your previous character (basically what you had the most levels in).

FYI Tempest rangers are still very effective archers, they receive bow strength (add strength mod to bow damage), rapid shot, many shot, precise shot and improved precise shot as class feats. No other build apart from Arcane Archer makes a better archer (maybe fighter if you really spec-ed it that way).

Concentration is there because a ranger is likely to be casting while in melee. Personally I would regard points here as optional, you can certainly spend points in DD and search if you want to have trap skills. Just be aware that being a decent trapsmith requires a certain investment in gear as well as, such as lockpicks, items to boost DD, etc. Not everyone can be bothered with that.

Other points: improved crit doubles your threat range, which in effect doubles the rate at which you score critical hits which greatly increases your DPS. Oversized 2WF only removes the penalty for weilding normal weapons in boths hands rather than a normal in you main and light in the off-hand. Its really only there as it is a pre-req for Tempest III enhancement, which can't be taken until level 18 anyway.

In choosing the favored enemy you need to think about not just how many of a given type you will face, but how difficult they are to take down. While you will face plenty of vermin, they aren't difficult foes. Favored enemy: undead is a no-brainer because you will face lots of them, and there will be plenty of tough ones. You can also do feat swaps to change your favored enemy. Here is a good list of enemy types: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Damag...nsters_by_Type. Note that magical beast sounds like a useful favored enemy, but not many mobs actually fall into that category.

If I could give one piece of advice it would be that all these are very solid builds, so the best thing you can do is pick the one that seems most appealing and jump in.

I didn't see this one until after I'd already replied to "tihocan", but thank you for this too. I know a little more about True Reincarnation, now.

[hibora]

I have already downloaded the game and it wont let me play I can only keep finding redownload links!
What should I do to play?, Thank

[tihocan]

I have already downloaded the game and it wont let me play I can only keep finding redownload links!
What should I do to play?, Thank

Look into tech support... I also posted another reply in another thread where you asked the exact same question.

[Desdemonte]

I started follwoing this thread when it 1st began and I must say it is an amazing body of work. Thanks for all you've done.

I was so excited with the new tempest build, I jumped onto another world (no slots left on mine) and rolled one up. Sadly, I have no time to play him.

Even more sadly, I am wondering how everything will shake out over the next few weeks after U5, and the melee builds may need revamping. I hope there are minimal changes, and you are able to find the time to do them.

After U5, I am pleasantly surprised my build is not horrid (currently a barb2 version of the Monster, with ranger 6/fighter 7) but I am finding his AC sux. Not being able to knock things down as fast is gonna start to hurt as I hit level 16. So I am going to TR him. My fingers are crossed that the Tempest 3 exploiter variant will be updated and perfected for U5. I have to decide between it and doing another Monster with 2 monk instead of the 2 barb. Not sure which way I'm leaning at this point. At least I have a few weeks to decide I don't want this thread to go OT discussing the plusses and minusses of these 2 builds unless it is appropriate.

Anyway, thanks for your hard work tihocan. Here's me waiting for the new Tempest build <sits and waits patiently>

[tihocan]

Here's me waiting for the new Tempest build <sits and waits patiently>

I have yet to read through the U5 release notes, but from what I've heard before, I don't think my Tempest version will change (significantly). I could have missed something, though.

[Desdemonte]

I have yet to read through the U5 release notes, but from what I've heard before, I don't think my Tempest version will change (significantly). I could have missed something, though.

I'm wondering more about the rogue1/monk1 version, or a monk 2 version of the tempest 3. I can't see much how the straight tempest 3 as you have it would change. Not sure I see how the other variants would change that much either (as far as how they would be built anyway). I guess they may just not be as favourable to play as they will be less effective post-U5.

I'm very curious to see how the U5 Exploiter compares to the U5 monk Monster though.....

[tihocan]

I'm wondering more about the rogue1/monk1 version, or a monk 2 version of the tempest 3. I can't see much how the straight tempest 3 as you have it would change. Not sure I see how the other variants would change that much either (as far as how they would be built anyway). I guess they may just not be as favourable to play as they will be less effective post-U5

What was changed in U5 for a rogue 1/ monk 1 "exploiter" build?

[Desdemonte]

What was changed in U5 for a rogue 1/ monk 1 "exploiter" build?

I'm not sure, to be honest. I am having a hard time digesting these new changes- I don't know the intricacies of builds. I just know someone who has an exploiter and he is upset about how it's been nerffed. Don't know much more about it. My guess is that he is level 10 and just doesn't have the DPS that made the build potent. I can't think of how the builds would be changed, because of my lack of knowledge. I just wonder if they can be tweaked to make them close to their old efficacy. Or do people just accept that they are still good builds, just not as good as before. And still very much worth playing as they are currently designed....?

[Irinis]

I'm not sure, to be honest. I am having a hard time digesting these new changes- I don't know the intricacies of builds. I just know someone who has an exploiter and he is upset about how it's been nerffed. Don't know much more about it. My guess is that he is level 10 and just doesn't have the DPS that made the build potent. I can't think of how the builds would be changed, because of my lack of knowledge. I just wonder if they can be tweaked to make them close to their old efficacy. Or do people just accept that they are still good builds, just not as good as before. And still very much worth playing as they are currently designed....?

They're not as good as before but with 18 levels of Ranger they survive the nerf as still a good build comparatively, since Tempest III gets high offhand procs.