Revisiting paths: Builds for new players

[stainer]

how many posts do you think it would take to have that happen?

Now if I had to say post my own build of a midget monkey low dex, low str, low con and low wis, max int and cha and call it the Humdinger?

But I post it one post at a time for each line....would it make it go faster?

I think we got it flipped now.

[Rasczak]

I think we got it flipped now.

perfect. And since we don't want to be accused of trolling....

trolls are always around
experience
bacon boy

[tihocan]

Great thread, here. I'm a complete newb to these D&D rules, so appreciate the advice. Looking through, I saw the Warpriest of Siberys, which seemed right up my alley.

I rolled a human cleric and when I was fiddling around with enhancements I saw one of your recommended, Orien Balance I, has a prereq of Least Dragonmark of Passage. Poking around a bit, I came to the conclusion that was a rather meh feat and probably not worth it. Any bits of advice on should / should not take and what sort of substitute might make sense?

Thanks for your help and for the thread.

Yes sorry about this, I took note of this issue but haven't fixed it yet (I'm going to be catching up a bit on my TODO list tomorrow). Just don't take it and pick something else instead

[tihocan]

[bobmckay]

Brilliant work. Been playing for around a month, been sucked in to going VIP.
After reading so many posts about build splashing and getting more and more confused, this is exactly what I needed to find. My primary at the moment is a lvl8 barb following your take on savage of the wild which is an absolute monster and can only get better.

Thanks.

P.S. Would love to see your take on Avenging angel.

[Devia]

Warpriest of Siberys (L19 Cleric/L1 Fighter)

Snip!

I just wanted to add my +1 to you for all your hard work. I tried a couple of different class and combos to try soloing. I am on the above build, and I love it! Sure, I can't pick locks or find traps, but this is the first character that I can solo hard on all of the Korthos and (so far) all of the Harbor quests. I am new with no hand me downs or plat to draw from. It's helping me learn the game so that I can try some of the other more challenging builds. I've been trying to send people to this thread in-game as much as I can whenever they have a build question. It's people like you who take the time to write posts like these that makes playing online games so fun.

If I could give you more rep, I would

[Devia]

how many posts do you think it would take to have that happen?

Now if I had to say post my own build of a midget monkey low dex, low str, low con and low wis, max int and cha and call it the Humdinger?

But I post it one post at a time for each line....would it make it go faster?

I don't even remember what you're talking about anymore.

[Devia]

I'm sorry! I just thought of another question for the Warpriest, and it's probably really dumb!

Re: Orien's Balance. I'm having some trouble staying upright, especially when those robodogs grease me. Should I change up going for Orien's Balance and pick one of the Balance enhancements I can use now? (I'm level 3.)

Is there another route that I'm not seeing that would not require the use of an enchantment? I am working on getting Concentrate maxed, like the build suggests. Should I just be splitting the difference between Con and Balance more? I don't want to gimp myself if suddenly at level 4 I magically begin to stay upright . . .

[mindlessdrone1991]

Can you move up one or more of the monk builds on your list? I'm not sure of the premise for each of them, so I can't be more specific, but I enjoy playing my ninja spy and would like to look further into the diversity of the monk class.

Thanks.

[tihocan]

I'm sorry! I just thought of another question for the Warpriest, and it's probably really dumb!

Re: Orien's Balance. I'm having some trouble staying upright, especially when those robodogs grease me. Should I change up going for Orien's Balance and pick one of the Balance enhancements I can use now? (I'm level 3.)

Is there another route that I'm not seeing that would not require the use of an enchantment? I am working on getting Concentrate maxed, like the build suggests. Should I just be splitting the difference between Con and Balance more? I don't want to gimp myself if suddenly at level 4 I magically begin to stay upright . . .

There's no "magic" involved, but in any case, keep maxing Concentration. I'd suggest to use an item "of Balance" to boost your Balance skill (I should add it in Tips). I agree lack of Balance can be a bit annoying sometimes, but it's the price to pay to avoid spending 2 more build points in Int at character creation
If you ever get a +2 Int tome, it will probably be too late to take full advantage of it, but that's when it's best to spend the extra skill point on Balance.

[tihocan]

Can you move up one or more of the monk builds on your list? I'm not sure of the premise for each of them, so I can't be more specific, but I enjoy playing my ninja spy and would like to look further into the diversity of the monk class.

Thanks.

Well I got a bunch of requests already and I'm lagging behind Sadly my laptop's battery is dying and it's slowing me down, because I can't work on this while traveling anymore.
Anyway I'll get to it at some point. Although I have no idea currently how different Monk builds are going to be, because overall there aren't that many "working" ways to build a Monk, it's basically just a choice between Light/Dark and Finesse/Str-based. Hopefully the various PrEs will add some more interesting choices.

[tihocan]

Storm of Kargon (L20 Barbarian)

Concept: High damage dealer dual-wielding weapons, favoring offense over defense.
Original path's flaws: Does not give access to the Frenzied Berzerker enhancement, waste of some build points in Dex for Drow / Elf / Halfling.
Main fixes: Revised feats for access to Frenzied Berzerker, and optimized starting stats a bit better for some races.

Alignment: Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Good, Neutral, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, Lawful Good

Stats and Race (28/32 pt):
........Drow.....Dwarf......Elf.....Halfling...Human...Warforged.
.Str.....16......16/17.....16/17.....15/16.....16/17.....16/17...
.Dex.....17........16........17........17........16........16....
.Con.....13........16......13/14.......14........14........16....
.Int.....10........8.........8.........8.........8.........8.....
.Wis.....10......10/11......10/9......9/10.....10/11......8/9....
.Cha.....10........6.........8.........8.........8.........6.....

Ability increase every 4 levels: All in Str, except if you started with 16 Dex *and* cannot afford a +1 Dex tome, in which case your L4 point should go in Dex (then all other points in Str).

Skills, except Human and Drow: Keep Balance and Intimidate maxed out at all levels. At character creation, get one rank (two skill points) into Tumble and spend your last two points in Jump, then on next levels always spend your extra skill point into Jump.
Skills, Human and Drow: Same, but also keep Listen maxed out at all levels.

Feats (by level), except Human: Two-Weapon Fighting (1), Power Attack (3), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (6), Improved Critical: <see note below> (9), Cleave (12), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (15), Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (18)
Feats (by level), Human: Two-Weapon Fighting (1), Power Attack (1), Cleave (3), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (6), Improved Critical: Slash (9), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (12), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh (15), Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (18)
Special note: The Improved Critical Feat at L9 should be taken in the weapon type you intend to use. It should be Slash for Human and Dwarf, Pierce for Drow, and either of these for Elf, Warforged and Halfling, depending on your chosen weapon (see the Tips section for weapon suggestions: Rapier and Picks are Pierce, while Scimitar is Slash).

For more information about picking enhancements please read this post.
Enhancements (Barbarian): Constitution I, Damage Boost IV, Extend Rage III, Extra Rage I, Frenzied Berzerker III, Hardy Rage II, Improved Damage Reduction I, Might (capstone), Power Attack III, Power Rage III, Sprint Boost I
Enhancements (Drow): Enchantment Resistance I, Melee Attack I, Melee Damage II
Enhancements (Dwarf): Axe Attack I, Axe Damage II, Constitution I, Spell Defense I, Tactics I
Enhancements (Elf): Aerenal or Valenar Elf Melee Attack I, Aerenal or Valenar Elf Melee Damage II, Enchantment Resistance I
Enhancements (Halfling): Cunning I, Guile II, Luck (Will) I
Enhancements (Human): Adaptability Strength I, Improved Recovery II
Enhancements (Warforged): Constitution I, Construct Thinking I, Healer's Friend II, Tactics I

Soloability by level:
No hireling..: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
With hireling: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

Tips:
- Your main weapon would be as follows: Dwarf -> Dwarven Axe, Elf -> Rapier or Scimitar, Drow -> Rapier, Human -> Scimitar up to L15, then Khopesh. Warforged and Halfling -> Rapier, Heavy Pick or Scimitar. Make sure you pick at L9 the Improved Critical feat that corresponds to the weapon type you are planning to use. Also, on an Elf, you should pick the melee enhancements that correspond to your chosen weapon.
- Although dual-wielding both weapons of the same type is best for maximum damage output, until you get Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (at L18), you will suffer an additional -2 to-hit when your off-hand weapon is not light (and none of the weapons listed above is light). Consequently, until you can reliably hit monsters, it is advised to use a light weapon instead in your off-hand, for instance: Dwarf -> Handaxe, Elf -> Light Pick or Kukri, Drow -> Shortsword, Human -> Kukri, Warforged and Halfling -> Light Pick or Kukri.
- At lower level, using a Two-Handed Weapon (preferably Greataxe, Falchion or Greatsword) is actually more effective than dual-wielding (because of the higher to-hit bonus, and the fact you do not get many off-hand attacks with two weapons until after you get Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).
- Power Attack is a very useful stance to boost your damage output, but learn to turn it off when you are missing too much (you should not be using it much at low level: it is taken early only because it is a prerequisite to Cleave and Frenzied Berzerker, not because you should start using it immediately).
- At low level, save your few rages for the important fights in the quest, and wear the highest AC medium armor you can find (typically Breastplate / Mithral Full Plate). Carry a shield for times when you need to save on healing costs (or if you realize you are missing too much when wielding two weapons, since it gives a to-hit penalty).
- Later on, your AC will be too low to matter: try to stay raged most of the time, and rely on your DR to mitigate damage and on your high HP buffer to stay alive. This is when you can simply wear robes/outfits, which are faster to swap than regular armor.
- Guard items, that proceed when being hit, can be quite effective on barbarians.
- The Frenzy ability you gain with Frenzied Berzerker I is useful when the extra damage inflicted on yourself does not matter, but may be avoided otherwise. This contrasts with the Death Frenzy obtained with Frenzied Berzerker III, which is a significant improvement on your DPS output, and thus should be used as much as possible.

Variants:
- The proposed build purposedly delays access to the Frenzied Berzerker (FB) line of enhancements until L12 (except on Human). This is because FB I is not as useful as the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat on a dual-wield build. However, you can modify the feat order so as to take FB I at L6, especially if you are planning to use a Two-Handed Weapon until L12: to do so, just swap Cleave with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
- Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting may seem overkill on a high-Strength Barbarian, but it is actually useful in Epic content (which you can run once you reach L20). It is not mandatory though, and you can choose to replace it for instance with one of: Khopesh proficiency (except on Human), Toughness (for more HPs) or Stunning Blow (for more auto-crit situations).
- The Heavy Pick is also a viable weapon for all races if you enjoy big numbers on critical hits (and it is the best weapon in auto-crit situations, so it goes well with Stunning Blow, in addition to giving you the option to use a Light Pick in off-hand if you decide not to take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting).
- If you have access to a Dex tome, you can start with lower Dex (16 if you have a +1 Dex tome, 15 with a +2 one). The goal is to reach 17 Dex (base + tome) to qualify for Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, without having to waste a level-up point on Dex. Note that if you rely on a +2 tome you will not be able to pick Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at L6 (since a +2 tome is Minimum Level 7), so you can instead pick Cleave (or Khopesh / Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting on Human), and delay Improved Two-Weapon Fighting until L12. It may also still be possible to respec your L6 feat into Improved TWF after using the tome.
- Intimidate is mostly here to avoid chasing monsters around when they are after someone else. It is a useful skill, but only if you use it... If that is not the case, better max out Spot instead.
- The most popular multiclass variants splash two levels of either Fighter (for extra feats) or Rogue (for evasion and UMD). The main losses are the capstone enhancement (+2 Str) and the +2 to Str and Con a L20 barbarian gains when raging.
- This build basically fits the same role (main damage dealer) as the Savage of the Wild path. The main differences between Two-Weapon Fighting (this build) and Two-Handed Fighting (Savage of the Wild) are that TWF allows more options in weapon combinations, is more effective w.r.t. special attacks like Trip and Stunning Blow (because your target may have to make two saves), and is a bit higher damage vs. a single target, while THF is easier to equip (you only need half the weapons) and is more effective when fighting multiple opponents (thanks to glancing blows).
- This build is close in spirit to the Whirlwind Fighter and The Truthbringer (Paladin) paths. There is no real "best" when comparing one to each other, so go with the class that appeals to you most! To give a rough idea of the main differences, in terms of self-sufficiency and defensive potential, Paladin >> Fighter > Barbarian, while in terms of sustained damage, Barbarian > Fighter > Paladin. The Paladin playstyle is also more "active" (there are more short-term buffs and special abilities to keep track of).

Color code: best to worst = green, yellow, orange, red

[Devia]

There's no "magic" involved, but in any case, keep maxing Concentration. I'd suggest to use an item "of Balance" to boost your Balance skill (I should add it in Tips). I agree lack of Balance can be a bit annoying sometimes, but it's the price to pay to avoid spending 2 more build points in Int at character creation
If you ever get a +2 Int tome, it will probably be too late to take full advantage of it, but that's when it's best to spend the extra skill point on Balance.

Thanks. I will keep on Concentration then.

One last thing to confirm that Warpriest is a great starter build. I just finished soloing the Waterworks Kobold prison quest line on Normal at Level 3. Again, my gear is just other rewards from the Harbor and lots of pots picked up along the way. My main weapon is the flaming GreatAxe from the tutorial! I was dumb and didn't use Summon Monster I until the end, mostly because I forgot that I had it. Thank goodness for Rest Shrines!

I didn't die once! It was so fun because I had to think very hard on how I would do everything. I hit every optional boss except anything that was behind a secret door. My heart was pounding the whole time! When I was selling the vendor trash, I didn't even realize that I had picked up some healing wands along the way. Oops! This sold the game for me. It was really tense and atmospheric, a lone cleric against the reptile people.

Yes I'm thanking you AGAIN for doing this! I also can't wait to see your take on monks, but I'll roll the Dark Blade next for more of a challenge and to get those pesky doors/chests.

[tihocan]

Glad you're having fun!

[Statham]

Concerning Warpriest of Siberys (L19 Cleric/L1 Fighter)

Your listing for skill suggestions apparently only pertains to character creation. After advancing to 2nd level and beyond, do you recommend continuing to max out Concentration? Or are the initial 4 ranks in Concentration sufficient and Balance then becomes more vital?

[tihocan]

Concerning Warpriest of Siberys (L19 Cleric/L1 Fighter)

Your listing for skill suggestions apparently only pertains to character creation. After advancing to 2nd level and beyond, do you recommend continuing to max out Concentration? Or are the initial 4 ranks in Concentration sufficient and Balance then becomes more vital?

Max out Concentration. What made you think the skills were only about character creation?

[tihocan]

I agree lack of Balance can be a bit annoying sometimes, but it's the price to pay to avoid spending 2 more build points in Int at character creation

Erm, I should have checked my build before posting this, I actually invested 2 points in Int precisely to be able to get Balance

[Statham]

Max out Concentration. What made you think the skills were only about character creation?

Mainly because the suggested skill list requires a minimum of 8 points, which the build gets at creation, (4 ranks in Concentration, 1 rank in Tumble, 1 rank in Balance... testing this on Human, btw). But at 2nd level, the build only gets 2 points, so you have to choose just one skill to focus on. As a new player, it isn't innately clear to me whether Concentration trumps Balance for a caster.

Skill selection at character creation is always significantly more robust than at higher levels because of the initial skill point bonus. Would it be pertinent to split the Skill section of the build write-up into "At Creation" and "At Additional Levels" or am I just being dense?

[tihocan]

Mainly because the suggested skill list requires a minimum of 8 points, which the build gets at creation, (4 ranks in Concentration, 1 rank in Tumble, 1 rank in Balance... testing this on Human, btw). But at 2nd level, the build only gets 2 points, so you have to choose just one skill to focus on. As a new player, it isn't innately clear to me whether Concentration trumps Balance for a caster.

Skill selection at character creation is always significantly more robust than at higher levels because of the initial skill point bonus. Would it be pertinent to split the Skill section of the build write-up into "At Creation" and "At Additional Levels" or am I just being dense?

Well, the instructions tell you exactly what to do, but I understand it may not necessarily be obvious for a new player. I guess I could rephrase it a bit differently. But basically, just do exactly what is said (max Concentration, get 1 rank in Tumble and spend everything else into Balance), i.e.:
- At character creation, 4 skill points into Concentration, 2 in Tumble, 2 in Balance
- At next levels, 1 skill point into Concentration, 1 into Balance

[Fluffyburrito]

Enjoying the dark blade build so far, but I'm confused why you have both damage boost and haste boost. I know skill boost will be useful on hard traps/heal scrolls, but I'm confused as to why I need both damage and haste. Is one more useful in a certain situation? I was considering getting simply haste IV and maybe a few enhancements in the spot skill since I'm still a bit low level.