Revisiting paths: Builds for new players

[gurslak]

Would you take the two ranger levels 1+2 to get twf as early as possible? If so could you take weapon Finesse as first choice or take a new feat?

[tihocan]

Would you take the two ranger levels 1+2 to get twf as early as possible? If so could you take weapon Finesse as first choice or take a new feat?

I always think long term so I'd still take Rogue first for the few extra skill points. Then the 2 levels of Ranger.
Keep in mind splashing 2 levels gives -1 DC to Assassinate and -1d6 sneak attack. It doesn't mean it can't work, but you need to be aware of the trade-off.

[Angelus_dead]

Would you take the two ranger levels 1+2 to get twf as early as possible?

It is a mistake to try getting TWF early. Even if you do have the TWF feat, using it at low level reduces your effectiveness (unless you have handwraps). Gaining 1/4 attacks with a smaller weapons with 1/2 str is not worth either giving up -2 on attack rolls and either (a) 2-5 AC or (b) 1/2 str, 3-4 base damage, and glancing blows.

Don't use two weapons until you have at least the ITWF feat, or maybe even GTWF.

[TomCommie]

Don't you also get sneak attacks with your off-hand? I'd think that that would compensate for some of the loss in to-hit, especially after you complete the Sharn Syndicate at level 4 and end up with, say, a flame rapier in your main hand and an acid short-sword in your off-hand.

Tom

[ryotsurugi]

Not trying to distract from the current TWF questions which I must admit I am a bit curious about the answers to them but I was looking at the Thief-Acrobat build and saw in the bottom of the post that a splash of fighter could work well with the build.

I guess my question would be how early or late would that splash be useful? Only reason I really ask is cause I'd really like to try a thief that isn't always using TWF for the most part. As a new player trying to get 2 decent 1h weapons tends to be way more expensive than a decent 2h weapon.

Guess another option might be finding out if the Dark Blade build could be worked around THF instead of TWF. Personally I have no idea if that would be plausible but there's just something funny about a rogue being able to assassinate someone with a Great Sword or Great Axe without being seen.

[tihocan]

Don't you also get sneak attacks with your off-hand?

Yes, you do. Personally I like starting dual wielding weapons early, just because it's fun. You may not get the best out of it until you obtain ITWF, but trying to optimize the lower levels is not really important IMO.

[tihocan]

I was looking at the Thief-Acrobat build and saw in the bottom of the post that a splash of fighter could work well with the build.

I guess my question would be how early or late would that splash be useful?

Take it early to get the benefits early. At L2 for instance.

Guess another option might be finding out if the Dark Blade build could be worked around THF instead of TWF. Personally I have no idea if that would be plausible but there's just something funny about a rogue being able to assassinate someone with a Great Sword or Great Axe without being seen.

I thought about it and I think it should be possible, though definitely sub-optimal compared to TWF. One option on such a build is to entirely drop Dex and rely on Insightful Reflexes instead.

[Zachski]

I have no idea, I haven't looked at these release notes yet. I probably will if there is a significant benefit to it, but it's going to be hard if I want to keep a staff version. If it's just that (dex bonus to sneak attack damage), then it's likely I may just mention it for a dual wielding dex-based Acrobat rather than a staff user.

I forgot to mention, I think the dex bonus only applies if you're wielding a staff.

[PointyRhiana]

The Dark Blade (L19 Rogue/L1 Fighter)
snipsnip

Since my thread went byebye in the forum mess last night, I'll just ask here. I've finally reached level 2 on the character that is on this path. Is this when I take the fighter level? And what skills should I put points in? Since most of them are Rogue based, and I'll be a fighter, so it'll take more points...

[narook]

Since my thread went byebye in the forum mess last night, I'll just ask here. I've finally reached level 2 on the character that is on this path. Is this when I take the fighter level? And what skills should I put points in? Since most of them are Rogue based, and I'll be a fighter, so it'll take more points...

Yes, you take it at second level. Quote from the Dark Blade post that answers both questions.

Create your character as a Rogue, then take your second level as Fighter, then levels 3 to 20 as Rogue.

Max Search, Disable Device, UMD, Open Locks, Spot, Balance, Diplomacy, Hide, Move Silently. Split your remaining points equally between Jump and Tumble. On your Fighter level you will not have enough skill points for everything, so invest them in some of the skills above (making sure you do not end up with an extra .5 in any skill - spending a point in another Fighter skill if necessary), then catch up on your next rogue levels (do not spend points in Jump, Tumble or Balance until after all other skills are back to max score, and max out first the first skills listed).

[PointyRhiana]

Yes, you take it at second level. Quote from the Dark Blade post that answers both questions.

*headdesk*

I shouldn't have posted before I had my coffee. >.>

Thanks.

[Honikan]

Tihocan, I took a look at you arcane archer build, and I do have to say I'm in love with it. But, a main issue I'm having is not being able to jump very well if at all. So I was thinking of changing the stats to 14, 18, 12, 10, 10, 8, so I could put those points in. Then I noticed that you build has something the compendium build doesn't. You say to train and max out the UMD skill, when rangers already get the ability to use many devices like wands and wisdom runes. So I thought I didn't have to change the stats, just take out UMD, but I'm sure you have a purpose for it, and i'd like to hear why.

Also, I'm not partial to Power Attack because it gives up to-hit for more damage, and missing is a curse of mine. I saw that the extra feat you took for humans doesn't exactly fit the build, so I was wondering your thoughts on a different feat, replacing power attack (on my elf) not with maximize, but either Quicken Spell, Eschew Materials, or Power Critical.

Thank you for your time.

[tihocan]

Tihocan, I took a look at you arcane archer build, and I do have to say I'm in love with it. But, a main issue I'm having is not being able to jump very well if at all. So I was thinking of changing the stats to 14, 18, 12, 10, 10, 8, so I could put those points in. Then I noticed that you build has something the compendium build doesn't. You say to train and max out the UMD skill, when rangers already get the ability to use many devices like wands and wisdom runes. So I thought I didn't have to change the stats, just take out UMD, but I'm sure you have a purpose for it, and i'd like to hear why.

UMD is a useful skill to use race/alignment-restricted gear, and some scrolls (in particular raise dead, teleport, and heal).
The Jump skill doesn't make you jump higher once you hit 40. At L10 (I think, to be verified) the Jump spell (that you get as a Ranger) gives you +30. You can expect at high level to rather easily get 22 Str (=> +6) and Greater Heroism (=> +4), thus reaching the cap without investing a single skill point in it. So it's a long term choice to avoid wasting skill points.

Also, I'm not partial to Power Attack because it gives up to-hit for more damage, and missing is a curse of mine. I saw that the extra feat you took for humans doesn't exactly fit the build, so I was wondering your thoughts on a different feat, replacing power attack (on my elf) not with maximize, but either Quicken Spell, Eschew Materials, or Power Critical.

Power Attack is very useful in a lot of content where you can hit stuff rather easily with a melee. My second choice would actually be Weapon Finesse to instead boost your melee when stuff is harder to hit (e.g. Epic content). The 3 other feats you suggest don't seem very useful to me (you don't often need to cast spells in combat, especially when ranging, spell components aren't really an issue, and Power Crit is mostly useless since confirming criticals is often easy enough). I don't have any other suggestion though because I gottta run!

[StartGame]

i have a question about the tempest:

i am at L1, and i see that scimitar gives a -4 bonus because i have no martial weapon proficiency.. am i still supposed to use scimitar at L3 for the dual wield?

also, can you give tips on the battle strategies and tips for tempest, so far all i do is run up to the monster and swing the weapon..

[Winter_storm]

The only problem with the 32 pt halfling Dark Blade is I come up 8 AP short for the enhancements, if try to add all the enhancements for rogue, fighter, and halfling together. I left out Heroes companion I, II, III and Halfling Dexterity I. But I was hoping for second opinion on what enhancement to leave out and add in... The toon is strong but noticed trouble with fear and hobgoblin stench so far at lvl 5.

[tihocan]

i have a question about the tempest:

i am at L1, and i see that scimitar gives a -4 bonus because i have no martial weapon proficiency.. am i still supposed to use scimitar at L3 for the dual wield?

also, can you give tips on the battle strategies and tips for tempest, so far all i do is run up to the monster and swing the weapon..

Yes, you'll be using scimitars, the first Ranger level will give you scimitar proficiency. Use any other weapon you are proficient with at L1.

And yes, running to the monster and swinging is what most melees do Few points that come to mind though:
- General melee combat tips apply, like (i) remember to use Trip when you get it, (ii) don't attack while running to avoid the -4 to-hit penalty (although once you get Spring Attack you can attack while running, keeping in mind it still locks you out of the highest to-hit bonus in the attack sequence), (iii) learn to use block and tumble - even though you can do fine without them most of the time.
- Once you get 6 levels in Ranger, feel free to use a bow with your Manyshot ability activated (20s duration, 2 mins cooldown), as it can be pretty good ranged DPS even on a melee character.
- Once you start getting spells you'll be also able to better buff and heal yourself in combat.

If you are looking for more "active" combat abilities, Monk, Paladin, or Fighter with strategic feats are what you need.

[tihocan]

The only problem with the 32 pt halfling Dark Blade is I come up 8 AP short for the enhancements, if try to add all the enhancements for rogue, fighter, and halfling together. I left out Heroes companion I, II, III and Halfling Dexterity I. But I was hoping for second opinion on what enhancement to leave out and add in... The toon is strong but noticed trouble with fear and hobgoblin stench so far at lvl 5.

Lol thanks, I forgot to double check this for some builds... You're right, I need to remove some enhancements (the Assassin line is quite expensive).
So yes, sadly, going to remove Hero's Companion, as well as a few +saves enhancements, and Cunning III (tier II should be enough). I think I end up with 5 APs left now, to be put wherever you want. If it was just me I'd also remove Search I, but I think I'll leave it as new players will find it useful when they start.

Thanks again for noticing this!

Fear isn't that deadly as it used to be since duration is pretty short now. Make sure you carry remove fear potions to help boost your saves in areas with casters casting the spell.
For Trog Stench, carry remove poison pots and you won't notice it anymore

[Winter_storm]

Lol thanks, I forgot to double check this for some builds... You're right, I need to remove some enhancements (the Assassin line is quite expensive).
So yes, sadly, going to remove Hero's Companion, as well as a few +saves enhancements, and Cunning III (tier II should be enough). I think I end up with 5 APs left now, to be put wherever you want. If it was just me I'd also remove Search I, but I think I'll leave it as new players will find it useful when they start.

Thanks again for noticing this!

Fear isn't that deadly as it used to be since duration is pretty short now. Make sure you carry remove fear potions to help boost your saves in areas with casters casting the spell.
For Trog Stench, carry remove poison pots and you won't notice it anymore

No problem I tried to say it the first time but I made it too complicated and should just got straight to the point. Sorry still learning the game.

Also side note: you need cunning III to have guile III (its a requirement according to the character builder) after this I have 2 APs left

[TomCommie]

With your Manyshot ability activated (20s duration, 2 mins cooldown), as it can be pretty good ranged DPS even on a melee character.

I am astonished by how good Manyshot is on my Tempest. I've got a good aligned bow and Deneith arrows and have been shooting down Beholders.

Tom

[tihocan]

Also side note: you need cunning III to have guile III (its a requirement according to the character builder) after this I have 2 APs left

Ah thanks. I edited it too fast, I should have been more careful. Oh well I'll just put it back. So much for freedom in enhancements