Denied Epic VON because no quicken, (GTWF vs. quicken feat question)

[ghale]

I never use quicken in epic von6 - what a waste of mana. I do wear a concentration +15 item (my concentration is about 50). Next time somebody says that tell them your concentration skill and make sure you wear a nice concentration item and other gear. Look to acquire gear for concentration if you have not already doen so. It is not a bad idea to have quicken in general but it is not needed for von6 and should be discouraged because it leads to mana pot usage.

Using mass heal is the way to go where if you don't have quicken it pretty much sucks from my experience. Healing for the dragon fight is actually the easy part where quicken makes zero significant difference. The only part that can be unnecessarily mana intensive is if the groups are having trouble or lagging on setting up the genies/pillars.

Certainly the OP shouldn't have been excluded from a group for not having quicken...and I can never remember being asked if I have quicken on my fs as a way to determine if I can come or not.

[Elrok]

Thx for all the advise!

Looks like dropping extend or IC:slash is the way to go.

I like extend because it's useful for BB, divine power, etc. , but at level 20 it is probably a minor trade off to be able to actually use mass heal, and BB faster.

I will not have the ingredients for MinII anytime soon so i guess that is another reason to drop extend.

Appreciate the advise

[Impatiens]

I will not have the ingredients for MinII anytime soon so i guess that is another reason to drop extend.

You can always switch out extend for quicken now and then once you get MinIIs swap out IC:slash and get extend back. Since you can buy the feat swap shards in the store now it's not as big of a deal to swap them out. I personally really like extend for some of the short duration buffs like recitation and divine power, and though I am melee based I find that end game I am mostly healing anyway so having the IC:slash isn't that big of a deal. I'll have MinIIs eventually, but until then i just live without IC:slash.

I think you'll really like having quicken if you get it. It makes mass heal and blade barrier so much more fun

[Solmage]

Seems pretty useless on a sorc, for the most part. I guess it depends on how you play your caster... if you're planning on parking yourself in the middle of 20 mobs, yeah, probably a good idea to have quicken. If you're more of a hop-around-and-don't-get-hit sorc, quicken may be fairly useless.

This is true. I never use quicken, I maybe fail a concentration check once a month if at all on my sorcerer. But I think for self healing when you're purposely letting yourself be beaten down it's useful, or when healing through high damage situations.

But if you start hoping around as a cleric dodging all sorts of rays and spells, chances are you'll be the only one alive at the end of your dodging maneuvers, what with everyone else waiting for you to heal them instead, heh. In other words I think Quicken is pretty important for a cleric, but fairly useless for a caster that can stay out of the way even when they have aggro/in spite of purposely pulling aggro.

[Solmage]

I never use quicken in epic von6 - what a waste of mana. I do wear a concentration +15 item (my concentration is about 50). Next time somebody says that tell them your concentration skill and make sure you wear a nice concentration item and other gear. Look to acquire gear for concentration if you have not already doen so. It is not a bad idea to have quicken in general but it is not needed for von6 and should be discouraged because it leads to mana pot usage.

From what I have observed, it's the use of the other metas that lead to mana pot usage. The lowest use runs I've seen have been with only quicken on, no max, no empower, no nonsense. 2 clerics, one heals until they're down to 0, then the other switches. No need for pots at all, nobody dies requiring rebuffing. But hey more than one way to peel an orange.

[Solmage]

I'd drop extend over IC any day.

I crit means u are not stuck with the average min 2. U get higher dps by tailoring ur weapons vs opponents. Extend is a waste IMO with all ur short term buffs lasting over 2 mins anyway. And 2 mins is a lifetime in fast runs. Extend to me is a conveniance and for Battleclerics conveniance feats are just too hard too include.

N

There are very few weapons better than minIIs, and literally none in the hands of anyone new enough to the game to be asking questions to have them. I mean, sure, a pair of holy/burst silver khopeshes of greater evil outsider bane would be nice.. but amusingly enough I haven't run into a pair of those just yet. Considering they'd cost about 5-6 million plat at least, assuming someone even sold them, I'm pretty sure the average player hasn't either. (And yes, I do have the 6 mill plat, and yes I'd pay it)

I do have some holy and anarchic burst axes of greater dragon bane with icy burst, but that's only because until recently dragon bane was worthless

I still think dropping IC is a very good option, specially on a non-100% melee combatant.

[Eurytos]

I didn't read the whole thread, but if any cleric or favored soul NEEDS quicken to keep a raid alive, they suck. I have never used quicken when healing and have never had a problem. All it does is waste spell points. A good enough healer will never need quicken to keep a raid alive.

Note: Both my clerics have quicken, but only use it for blade barriers when soloing. My TR'd cleric to fvs will have quicken, but again, will only use it for blade barriers.

[Eurytos]

I never use quicken in epic von6 - what a waste of mana. I do wear a concentration +15 item (my concentration is about 50). Next time somebody says that tell them your concentration skill and make sure you wear a nice concentration item and other gear. Look to acquire gear for concentration if you have not already doen so. It is not a bad idea to have quicken in general but it is not needed for von6 and should be discouraged because it leads to mana pot usage.

Thank you, glad I'm not crazy. People keep giving me **** for not healing with quicken even though everyone is alive.

[Strakeln]

I didn't read the whole thread, but if any cleric or favored soul NEEDS quicken to keep a raid alive, they suck. I have never used quicken when healing and have never had a problem.

I've died before when you were assigned to heal me and you were not on your back, so your last statement is either untrue or you're a ****** cleric.

We know you're not a ****** cleric... so I'll suggest that the conclusion is that there are times where quicken would be beneficial to you, and instantaneous moments where one could argue that you "needed" it.

[Riorik]

I never use quicken in epic von6 - what a waste of mana. I do wear a concentration +15 item (my concentration is about 50). Next time somebody says that tell them your concentration skill and make sure you wear a nice concentration item and other gear. Look to acquire gear for concentration if you have not already doen so. It is not a bad idea to have quicken in general but it is not needed for von6 and should be discouraged because it leads to mana pot usage.

Isn't the DDO mechanic the same as this?
http://ddowiki.com/page/Concentration

Even +50 would only allow for a slim chance of being able to continue casting in certain EPIC content conditions. Considering how slim the margin of error tends to be - especially considering cool down times, it may work just fine to not use quicken...but it seems like a bad choice to take the risk.

Don't misunderstand where I'm going on this - I think in certain situations, particularly EPIC and things like the Dragon wing buffeting, it's a bad idea. +50 is plenty is a LARGE number of situations, quests & raids. I do it myself all the time all over the place with many characters that generally have Quicken...but also a +35 to +50 concentration score at the same time.

Groups vary - some you can run a base (no metamagic) mass cure and others need empowered and/or maximized to stay alive. It varies. The more you're using, the less significant Quicken is to the overall amount of spell points you're casting. At worst you're only using 25% more spell points with it on and often only about half that. I think marginal groups contribute more to mana potion consumption than the Quicken feat.

[Lifespawn]

From what I have observed, it's the use of the other metas that lead to mana pot usage. The lowest use runs I've seen have been with only quicken on, no max, no empower, no nonsense. 2 clerics, one heals until they're down to 0, then the other switches. No need for pots at all, nobody dies requiring rebuffing. But hey more than one way to peel an orange.

i've done quicken + mass heal on my fvs and have a bard spotheal whoever doesn't get the mass heal and no pots used.

[Lifespawn]

I didn't read the whole thread, but if any cleric or favored soul NEEDS quicken to keep a raid alive, they suck. I have never used quicken when healing and have never had a problem. All it does is waste spell points. A good enough healer will never need quicken to keep a raid alive.

Note: Both my clerics have quicken, but only use it for blade barriers when soloing. My TR'd cleric to fvs will have quicken, but again, will only use it for blade barriers.

so you have a 70 or so concentration?

[Eurytos]

I've died before when you were assigned to heal me and you were not on your back, so your last statement is either untrue or you're a ****** cleric.

Wow, one hell of a memory you must have because I don't think I've even done anything with you except for Abbot, let alone something where I was specifically assigned to heal you. It must have been one hell of a memorable death considering the most recent you would have possibly grouped with me was 4 months ago as I've just recently come back to DDO. We've sure as hell never done von6 together yet, and to think that quicken would be necessary for any of the other raids is laughable except for Abbot when fast rezzing or mass curing through inferno. ToD? Single cleric'd it without quicken. Hound? Bard healed it on elite. VoD? A **** UMD toon with scrolls could heal it unless you have a paper tank.


Lifespawn: I don't believe I do, but for von6 specifically, I never felt I had a problem with getting hit. Provided your melees aren't made of paper, the damage in that quest isn't high enough to need anything more than regular cure light and cure mod mass cycles with an odd heal scroll thrown in here and there. Even then, I find myself over healing some people with the mass cures overlapping with other healers. I've done many epic dragons on 2 different clerics, both have quicken, but neither use it while healing. 99% sure the other clerics/FvS in raids aren't using it either. There's a reason why you have more than 1 healer in a raid... and on the odd chance that I was the only healer, then sure, maybe I would use quicken and chug some pots.... but that's besides the point of this thread. The only time people really die in von6 epic is because they don't see/hear the breath warning and eat fire damage.

Quicken is NOT required. It's, more often than not, a waste of spell points when used for healing. It certainly isn't an excuse to refuse a player into a raid for not having it.

[Kyrn]

Groups vary - some you can run a base (no metamagic) mass cure and others need empowered and/or maximized to stay alive. It varies. The more you're using, the less significant Quicken is to the overall amount of spell points you're casting. At worst you're only using 25% more spell points with it on and often only about half that. I think marginal groups contribute more to mana potion consumption than the Quicken feat.

Sorry to hijack, but since this came up, I just wanted to check. Isn't running empowered/maximize generally more efficient than not running either, for the high level heals? (unless of cause everyone is expected to pot/wand themselves after every fight, I guess)

[Strakeln]

Wow, one hell of a memory you must have because I don't think I've even done anything with you except for Abbot, let alone something where I was specifically assigned to heal you. It must have been one hell of a memorable death considering the most recent you would have possibly grouped with me was 4 months ago as I've just recently come back to DDO.

Don't take offense, I'm not calling you a bad cleric - we all know that's not the case. Yes, the one in particular I'm thinking of is memorable, as I wasn't expecting to die knowing you were healing and knowing your rep.

Is quicken required? No... but for that matter, neither is mana. After all, we've all healed through quests using only heal scrolls, right? Could anyone, yourself included, benefit from quicken? Yes. Are there certain situations in the game that any cleric/FvS will be less effective of a healer without it? Yes.

[Aaxeyu]

Get quicken, and never turn it off. Casting without it is to slow!

[Hendrik]

i Never Use Quicken In Epic Von6 - What A Waste Of Mana. I Do Wear A Concentration +15 Item (my Concentration Is About 50). Next Time Somebody Says That Tell Them Your Concentration Skill And Make Sure You Wear A Nice Concentration Item And Other Gear. Look To Acquire Gear For Concentration If You Have Not Already Doen So. It Is Not A Bad Idea To Have Quicken In General But It Is Not Needed For Von6 And Should Be Discouraged Because It Leads To Mana Pot Usage.

Qft.

[Gol]

I have a self buffed concentration around 40. I guess with his global damage from wing buffs this is not enough?

Against 70-80 damage, 40 is auto-FAIL, so yeah, you need quicken.

[Strakeln]

Against 70-80 damage, 40 is auto-FAIL, so yeah, you need quicken.

Not sure why so many seem so oblivious to this point. Seems like a no-brainer to me...

[maddmatt70]

Isn't the DDO mechanic the same as this?
http://ddowiki.com/page/Concentration

Even +50 would only allow for a slim chance of being able to continue casting in certain EPIC content conditions. Considering how slim the margin of error tends to be - especially considering cool down times, it may work just fine to not use quicken...but it seems like a bad choice to take the risk.

This is entirely untrue. I do not want to talk down to you, but experiment without quicken and you will see what I mean. I like turning on quicken in the last 10% of epic dq2 and that is it at the moment for epic.

Don't misunderstand where I'm going on this - I think in certain situations, particularly EPIC and things like the Dragon wing buffeting, it's a bad idea. +50 is plenty is a LARGE number of situations, quests & raids. I do it myself all the time all over the place with many characters that generally have Quicken...but also a +35 to +50 concentration score at the same time.

I made a mistake on my cleric on a particular epic von 6 run. I did not have my +15 concentration helm equipped and the difference was very noticeable as I failed several checks during the dragon fight. You need like I said a +50 (I actually might even have a +55) concentration check in the dragon fight.