A note to IntimaTanks

[cdemeritt]

Not all intimatanks are equal... Some are much better than others....

Last night in a PuG ToD, I took my newly reincarnated Intimatank in, and was asked if I could main tank... I said, I think so, explained I just reincarnated him as a intim, and had most of the gear to do the job... I also made it very clear, that this would be my first attempt at Intimatanking in there... Since I was the most quailified for the job, I was main tank.... I didn't do a stellar job... Not horrible, but not Stellar.

Needless to say in Pt3 I had a really hard time keeping Horoths attention... After a few attempts, his aggro seemed to switch between myself and the other fighter (non-intim)... At this point I hear the other fighter say he's going to turn off power attack... This is WRONG to me on many levels....

I've heard this in other raids too, The intim asks everyone to turn off power attack...

My thoughts, if you can't hold aggro with everyones PA on, you shouldn't be tanking... When it became clear to me that the other fighter was holding his aggro much better with DPS, than I could with intim, I let him take over, (ok, not entirely my call, but I was all for it) switched back to DPS. We took him down quickly and easily after that....

If you go into something with a plan to do it one way, that is good, but if it isn't working, don't get upset or be ready to switch things around if needed...

Side Note: after running the ToD, I ran Bastion of power for blood, Intimatanked both end bosses, and had no issue with it... It was a lot of fun to see the marilith swinging all of her attacks and missing, or if she did hit, DR ment 0-3 pts of damage... that fight went much easier than past ones...

[Lehrman]

The basic problem with the intimitank builds is that excessive DPS can steal your aggro. For raids like ToD and VoD, the best tank is the highest HP/DPS character, not the guy with intimidate. The raid leader apparently figured this out when he swapped you out of the main tank position. I do not know the viabilit of a 2-handed weapon intimitank, but it might be the way to go if you do want to be the main tank in VoD or ToD.

[Cashiry]

I do not know the viabilit of a 2-handed weapon intimitank, but it might be the way to go if you do want to be the main tank in VoD or ToD.

I tried this last night with Sulley in ToD... not two handed but was able to TWF in Stalwart Defense(235% Hate Gen) and also intimidate, worked out extremely well... will have to try Horath next...

[spartin]

[QUOTE=Lehrman;2773894]The basic problem with the intimitank builds is that excessive DPS can steal your aggro. QUOTE]

unless this was changed in the last 10 min (just intimied a VoD), that is incorrect. as long as you make you intimidate check, and the target isn't a random aggro enemy (ie sorjek in SoS) you wont loose aggro.

[Narmolanya]

[QUOTE=spartin;2773908]

The basic problem with the intimitank builds is that excessive DPS can steal your aggro. QUOTE]

unless this was changed in the last 10 min (just intimied a VoD), that is incorrect. as long as you make you intimidate check, and the target isn't a random aggro enemy (ie sorjek in SoS) you wont loose aggro.

Still true as far as I know.

I agree with the OP however, if you are not making the intimadate check and someone else is holding aggro better through DPS, and has the hp or ac to hold aggro, a change of tatics may be in order. Why turn of PA?

[Quikster]

...

[Quikster]

I tried this last night with Sulley in ToD... not two handed but was able to TWF in Stalwart Defense(235% Hate Gen) and also intimidate, worked out extremely well... will have to try Horath next...

Yes you did.

unless this was changed in the last 10 min (just intimied a VoD), that is incorrect. as long as you make you intimidate check, and the target isn't a random aggro enemy (ie sorjek in SoS) you wont loose aggro.

Correct. The problem with horoth is getting stunned. Usually if your group isnt a bunch of squishies its no problem. But having an intimidater tank horoth, even making your check, it is still possible for him to turn around. Also, whoever is dealing the big dps will end up with the dots.

[SquelchHU]

I'm confused. Doesn't intimidate hold aggro without fail for 6 seconds with a 6 second timer?

So wouldn't that mean the intimitank will always have aggro unless 1: He forgets to hit intim again. 2: He fails the check?

As long as he passes on a 1 and isn't late hitting the button he should be fine right? I honestly don't know, I haven't played one before. Of course getting the intimidate score to hold bosses might be easier said than done, but I wasn't aware it was possible for a successful intimidate to not do its job at making targets aggro you for 6 seconds.

[cdemeritt]

The raid leader apparently figured this out when he swapped you out of the main tank position..

Actually, it was a conclusion everyone came to (including myself), on the fly....

I tried this last night with Sulley in ToD... not two handed but was able to TWF in Stalwart Defense(235% Hate Gen) and also intimidate, worked out extremely well... will have to try Horath next...

If you can do it, and keep the aggro, then it is a good tactic... my point is if you can't don't ask the group to reduce DPS so you can.... Change the tactics being used.

I agree with the OP however, if you are making the intimadate check and someone else is holding aggro better through DPS, and has the hp or ac to hold aggro, a change of tactics may be in order. Why turn of PA?

I thought it odd the first time I heard it in a VoD, but when someone told me to turn off PA in a shroud... Why would you want to reduce DPS like that....

[Waukeen]

I tried this last night with Sulley in ToD... not two handed but was able to TWF in Stalwart Defense(235% Hate Gen) and also intimidate, worked out extremely well... will have to try Horath next...

my intimitank uses a dps mode, in stalwart stance with TwF + intim as well in mass heal raid situations. It works exceedingly well.

no reason to turtle when there is someone babysitting your hp.

the ability for intim to get through the lag seems to be an issue, its nice to build up the hate so a missed or unregistered (lag) intim doesnt spin the boss.

[cdemeritt]

So wouldn't that mean the intimitank will always have aggro unless 1: He forgets to hit intim again. 2: He fails the check?

As long as he passes on a 1 and isn't late hitting the button he should be fine right? I honestly don't know, I haven't played one before. Of course getting the intimidate score to hold bosses might be easier said than done, but I wasn't aware it was possible for a successful intimidate to not do its job at making targets aggro you for 6 seconds.

To get an intim to be 100% successful, 100% of the time, for a raid boss, well I'm sure it can be done, just not by everyone... If you fail even one, that is 6 seconds for DPS to steal aggro, and make a mess. so for most part ( I believe) it is a combo of DPS hate tanking, intim, and other to do the trick...

[Waukeen]

I'm confused. Doesn't intimidate hold aggro without fail for 6 seconds with a 6 second timer?

So wouldn't that mean the intimitank will always have aggro unless 1: He forgets to hit intim again. 2: He fails the check?

As long as he passes on a 1 and isn't late hitting the button he should be fine right? I honestly don't know, I haven't played one before. Of course getting the intimidate score to hold bosses might be easier said than done, but I wasn't aware it was possible for a successful intimidate to not do its job at making targets aggro you for 6 seconds.

Timing and spatial recognition of the range of your intim have a lot to do with it. In no/low lag quest situations intiming seemlessly holds aggro, in raids lag can make the game delay or ignore the intim roll you just made, or mostly it seems that the less successful they boss is at damaging you the more it wants to get away. Suulu can be particularly squirrely when turtle intiming him.

[BelVic]

I wish Mrwizard from this thread can come and answer you
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=229182

I am still working on my tank for this raid...trying to be 62 intim and 600+ HP.
But based on my observation from last year when I used to do DQ raids, she seems more likely to stay on intimitank with more guards ( which hit not for much but often).
Vod back in time of lvl 16 was known for switching aggro if somebody use lighting II or manyshot from main tank. So not sure about PA...but quick damage in short time can take aggro from intimitank if he didn't get enough aggro yet. My guess intimidate generate hate aggro over time just like DPS. So if somebody hit him very soon for big damage he can switch. Often when tank is dps based ppl give him some time to get aggro...but when he intimitank nobody wait long enough.. think it can be difference..But nobody know how intimidate mechanism work exactly...don't remember any reply from Turbine about it.

[sephiroth1084]

Had something similar occur the other night in ToD, though we went with a different solution.

I was hate-tanking Horoth, but in AC mode instead of DPS mode (S&B vs. GTHF) at the leader's request, but one of the other people in my party refused to give me the time to build up some aggro. Held for a while (Stalwart Stance I + Divine Righteousness and a bunch of Exalted Smites and such out of the gate will grab short term aggro easily), but a little while after my last DR ran out, and my Zeal and DF expired (probably going to pick up Quicken when I TR), I lost aggro. Instead of blocking for a moment at that point, the person who gained aggro kept swinging, then when they were almost dead decided to run away, which meant they were no longer getting heals and died.

At that point Horoth started bouncing aggro around, and I realized that if we were going to finish, this **** had to stop. So, I went into full-turtle mode and just intimi-locked him, with the instruction that if I call out that I'm stunned, everyone beating on him was to block until I was unstunned. The folks behind him took a little damage during the few stuns that came near the end of an intimidate, but not much, and I was taking very little damage, so the healers had an easy time keeping everyone up. Could have also held him with intimidate while a high-DPS/high-HP guy built up aggro to take over tanking duties I suppose, but this seemed simpler and faster.

Not the most ideal method, but if you're going to be an intimitank, that's kind of what you should be aiming to be able to do--take control in a bad situation and see it through to the end.

By the way, does anyone know if they ever fixed the hate generation on the tier III (and 2?) stances yet?

[Quikster]

I wish Mrwizard from this thread can come and answer you
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=229182

I am still working on my tank for this raid...trying to be 62 intim and 600+ HP.
But based on my observation from last year when I used to do DQ raids, she seems more likely to stay on intimitank with more guards ( which hit not for much but often).
Vod back in time of lvl 16 was known for switching aggro if somebody use lighting II or manyshot from main tank. So not sure about PA...but quick damage in short time can take aggro from intimitank if he didn't get enough aggro yet. My guess intimidate generate hate aggro over time just like DPS. So if somebody hit him very soon for big damage he can switch. Often when tank is dps based ppl give him some time to get aggro...but when he intimitank nobody wait long enough.. think it can be difference..But nobody know how intimidate mechanism work exactly...don't remember any reply from Turbine about it.

My experience doesnt agre with this. Intim will override all agro for 6 seconds and only 6 seconds so long as others are currently damaging the mob. Sullys agro resets when she teleports, so new agro needs to be established at that point. The only time sully used to bug agro was when someone was ranging her, she used to tele all over the place and into walls etc, but so long as said ranger was right up on her back it was fine. Lit II had nothing to do with making her agro buggy, its just that someone did more damage if a lit strike went off and possibly stole agro. My dps or intim tanks didnt have issues with either of the issues you have mentioned in vod. ( of course if I had 2 swings on sully, and a lit strike went off of course someone stole agro from my min II khops. But i think that is WAI)

[Solmage]

My experience with intimidating horoth was that after one of the updates he started to become unreliable. I don't recall which one, but he definately had the ability to turn around and take a few swings even as his head had the spiffy new intimidate icon on it. At the same time, his aggro would stick on the intimidator for a few seconds longer than it should have. (Shield blocker with 0 DPS)

My conclusion is that either due to a bug or a change in design, he behaves erratically in regards to intimidate, and can only be reliably tanked through hate tanking.

Lastly, I think the best tank for horoth is a high DPS/hate tank with a good AC. I despise the 0 AC approach, but with enough dps in the group, it can be made to work.

[sephiroth1084]

My experience with intimidating horoth was that after one of the updates he started to become unreliable. I don't recall which one, but he definately had the ability to turn around and take a few swings even as his head had the spiffy new intimidate icon on it. At the same time, his aggro would stick on the intimidator for a few seconds longer than it should have. (Shield blocker with 0 DPS)

My conclusion is that either due to a bug or a change in design, he behaves erratically in regards to intimidate, and can only be reliably tanked through hate tanking.

Lastly, I think the best tank for horoth is a high DPS/hate tank with a good AC. I despise the 0 AC approach, but with enough dps in the group, it can be made to work.

Shield-block-intimitanked Horoth last night, and he didn't turn around except when I had been stunned and intimidate had worn off. Seemed to be consistently ~6 seconds (I don't play with a stopwatch). Maybe someone in your run(s) is using a Deception weapon?

[Cashiry]

Maybe someone in your run(s) is using a Deception weapon?

or quivering palm

[sephiroth1084]

or quivering palm

I haven't played my monk high enough to use QP...why would that cause Horoth to turn around? And why would anyone use it in that situation?

[MrWizard]

The basic problem with the intimitank builds is that excessive DPS can steal your aggro. For raids like ToD and VoD, the best tank is the highest HP/DPS character, not the guy with intimidate. The raid leader apparently figured this out when he swapped you out of the main tank position. I do not know the viabilit of a 2-handed weapon intimitank, but it might be the way to go if you do want to be the main tank in VoD or ToD.

I disagree with this statement completely. I do vod, tod, etc all the time with my intim and the only time he ever turns is if I goof up on the intim.

If a ranger is doing crazy insane damage from way far away, that split second between intims could cause a teleporter (like VoD) to zoom to him, but as long as he stays in non teleport range he will not turn.

Sometimes intim can be tricky and it takes time to learn it right. IF you cannot keep him, then he will turn regardless of how much aggro.

Also, people who flank an intimmed monster will cause a 90 to 180 degree facing (ala shroud 5) so they must stay on his back.

For me, outside of the ranger being really far away I always make sure all DPS knows to go full bore and do not stop. If he turns for a second due to my mistake, just keep hitting as I will get him in a second.

If you do not have a high enough intim and do miss now and then...oh boy.

I do not agree that high dps can steal the intim unless you miss the button or it is just for a split second (or a ranger grabs him via range at just the wrong time).

One must have a non fail intim though, even a fail on a one can cause that few second turn.

I will agree an inexperienced person, either dps or intim, can make mistakes while learning the craft.