Why does turbine hate the bard?

[Hendrik]

I am sure everyone has heard this complaint before. DCs are the lowest, Bards need more feats, they dont get the bonous mana at lvl 1. I am sure there are a few others.

But here is where i think they really get screwed. They dont get the resist spells. You know the the LvL 2 spell that every other spell caster gets. One of the most **** usefull spells in the game and its just not an option for a bard.

Sorcs and wizzards no problem even though they are arcane casters.

Rangers and Pladins get it at lvl 1 spell as devine casters and clerics and favored souls get as a lvl 2 spell.

Again why the hate.

Comes from misinformation and/or any lack of actual play experience.

Bard's attain the highest DC in game from class abilities.

[Freeman]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the bard class. The Resist Energy spell request is really funny, since how would adding the ability to do something that six out of eleven classes can already do normally make a bard more powerful? Particularly when any character with a decent UMD can use wands for the same effect.

No, the problems are not with the bard class itself. The only problem is that too much of the content was specifically geared to make CC either almost useless or completely useless due to immunities. We've said for a long time that blanket immunities are not the way to go, but unfortunately, it takes more time, money, and imagination to come up with an alternative to a blanket immunity to make quests challenging, and Turbine hasn't shown the inclination to put forth that investment. Until they do, we'll just have to keep beating on stuff.

[Gorbadoc]

The thing that really gets my goat is how barbarians can't cast Neutralize Poison. Why can't they cast Neutralize Poison? Think of all the times you get poisoned as a barbarian. Is it fair that you can't self-cast Neutralize Poison? No. It's totally unreasonable the way the game expects that you'll carry pots or get a party member to cast it on you or wear a poison immunity item. Those things are all totally unreasonable. Barbarians need Neutralize Poison; without it, they're gimped.

[jcTharin]

Ok this I sincerely approve of....why am I not allowed to take out bagpipes for my bardsong...why does it always have to be a girlie lute?

I want an air guitar!

Or a piano. A piano would be good.

[Rasczak]

The thing that really gets my goat is how barbarians can't cast Neutralize Poison. Why can't they cast Neutralize Poison? Think of all the times you get poisoned as a barbarian. Is it fair that you can't self-cast Neutralize Poison? No. It's totally unreasonable the way the game expects that you'll carry pots or get a party member to cast it on you or wear a poison immunity item. Those things are all totally unreasonable. Barbarians need Neutralize Poison; without it, they're gimped.

And what about giving clerics that capstone when it's melees that need it most?

[FuzzyDuck81]

I want an air guitar!

Or a piano. A piano would be good.

How about Summon Backing Singers as a spell?

[Ponza69]

No, the problems are not with the bard class itself. The only problem is that too much of the content was specifically geared to make CC either almost useless or completely useless due to immunities. We've said for a long time that blanket immunities are not the way to go, but unfortunately, it takes more time, money, and imagination to come up with an alternative to a blanket immunity to make quests challenging, and Turbine hasn't shown the inclination to put forth that investment. Until they do, we'll just have to keep beating on stuff.

I agree with the above statement. However there are more issues/concerns with bards and CC. Look at the other threads on the analysis/judgement of the prestige classes within the bard class. In my opinion not only do they need to look at blanket immunities in Bard songs but they need to look at duration and DC to the perform skill.

I have no comprehension how charisma can be a dump stat for warchanter when it should be the main stat for all the bard classes. If turbine lowers the dc on songs then the perform skill means something again and charisma will mean something again. Virturosos may find a place of respect amongs the community again. (even if the community I speak of is the min/max crowd of uberness).

Further, if the prestige classes have more of a separation then Bards main not be considered duplicate classes and may break the assumption (however correct it may be) that 2 bards is a waste in a group/raid.

I am not saying that nothing else needs to be done. Perhaps melee ability is increased for Warchanters and perhaps healing/casting/benefit songs/spells for the SS is in order.

Anyways, I doubt they will look at anything like this because to do songs you have to do spells too - to some extent. For a game programming company to make such large and sweeping changes to the majority of player base will not be welcomed and most will jump on the fear train of the game is dying or becoming too hard/easy at the same time. (see lammania thread on CC discussion)

~Ponzaa - Argo - =)

[rimble]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but ML 7, Resist 20 potions are available in The Twelve. Casters get to save a little gold and get 10 more resist on their spell, but the Resist 20 potions go a long way. In the situations where a Bard might really need that 30 Resist they can UMD an 11th level wand.

I agree with Freeman that the only real problem is the extremely Enchantment-centric spell list of the Bard that makes their offensive casting options minimal in many situations.

[jcTharin]

Ok this I sincerely approve of....why am I not allowed to take out bagpipes for my bardsong...why does it always have to be a girlie lute?

I know! there could be a song that uses the bagpipes to get hate argo. it would be that as long as you keep on playing everything will ignore your allies and try to kill you until you stop playing the song. and your allies would try to kill you to!

How about Summon Backing Singers as a spell?

I got another idea! when you use fascinate instead of playing a song you do a mime performance. the enemies wont be fascinated they will be dumbstruck with confusion!

i should start a thread just for these ideas.

[MeasureZero]

The bard class abilities and enhancements are fine. The itemization is where I think the problem is. The best bard items are often also the best sorcerer items, the best barbarian items, or the best rogue items. The fact is that those classes usually get more out of said items than a bard would, so why should a bard get the same chance at getting them? I would like to see more gear specifically aimed at bards.

[SaisMatters]

I have three bards, that I love to play. My level 20 spellsinger, a level 10 warchanter multi(splashed with rogue) and a level 15 warforged warchanter. I loved the capstone for my spellsinger and will probally reincarnate him as a wizard for some improved DC when I reincarnate him on the 36 point build. The one thing I'd like more of is songs. I could care less about more spells. Perhaps a song to open locks?(think chimes of opening) or some death songs(like wail of the banshee) or a song along the same lines as Heroes feast??? just some thoughts

[KoboldTrapper]

This topic is fail. The OP needs to stop talking for others and let them get their own neg rep from others.

I mean, really... For a bard, the dev's need to tap into that wonderful book known as The Spell Compendium.

Sound lance, line of sonic damage. Basically lightning bolt for sonic damage.

Bards were given an immense arsenal of spells in that book..

[Maegin]

bards DO get resists, its just called UMD

Even tho stuff has blanket immunities, at higher lvl, thats usually a typical trait of mobs in PnP and DDO. Bard facinate can be abused if used correctly, but eitherway, I feel the class is fine :/

Edit: FYI Freeman's opinon is about right on, give or take a bit.

[Tharlak]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the bard class. The Resist Energy spell request is really funny, since how would adding the ability to do something that six out of eleven classes can already do normally make a bard more powerful? Particularly when any character with a decent UMD can use wands for the same effect.

No, the problems are not with the bard class itself. The only problem is that too much of the content was specifically geared to make CC either almost useless or completely useless due to immunities. We've said for a long time that blanket immunities are not the way to go, but unfortunately, it takes more time, money, and imagination to come up with an alternative to a blanket immunity to make quests challenging, and Turbine hasn't shown the inclination to put forth that investment. Until they do, we'll just have to keep beating on stuff.

Spot on, I agree.

My Spellsinger is mostly a hagglebot at this point.

But my Warchanter is having a blast beating on things.

[Irinis]

Yeah... my spellsinger is a hagglebot, but in raids she brings songs and then is a sp-gimped half-cleric for the rest. I love playing her but she can't really kill anything and can't solo quests even at slightly lower level - she HAS to have a group to kill stuff for her. But then I play my warchanter and I'm frustrated at the lack of sp and cc. Hehe.