Empower vs. Empower Healing

[Kralgnax]

Ok, I'm a 1-level fighter dip melee capable cleric coming up on character level 15, and feeling some ambivalence about which to take. Empower is my current plan. Playstyle - I have yet to be in a raid, it's mostly quests with 3 or so of my guildies, plus the odd PUGer(s). However, I would like to be credibly raid capable for the Shroud (at least) if and when we get there.
Feats so far: MT, IMT, Extend, Quicken, Maximize - plan is toughness at level 18

I do understand that Empower healing is the only means to enhance Heal. I do not have (nor do I currently plan for) any enhancements to reduce the SP cost for it. I'm still leaning to empower for cures, blade barrier and offensive spellcasting, as it seems that most of the utlity of empower healing is in raid encounters.

There's always the option of punting and taking Toughness - but I think it makes more sense at level 18, as I'm mostly doing ok for survivability right now.

So, anyone see this as a really awful decision - and if so, why, exactly?

[Stalwyrt]

Based on what you have listed as your play-style I would say regular Empower is best for you. For me however Empower Healing with the enhancements was the better choice (pure caster cleric). In my opinion you do not normally need to both Maximize and Empower cleric damage spells, while I never turn Empower Healing off and can trust that I'm never "wasting" the extra SP cost (other than maybe the occasional overheal). But it is one of those things that comes down to how you play - for many levels I ran with both Empower and Empower Healing, and that came in handy as well. For now I've settled with MT, IMT, Extend, Quicken, Maximize, Emp Healing, Toughness, and Spell Pen (human).

[DToNE]

I'm a 1 Fighter (eventually 2) dip as well. To be honest, I have not found an occasion where Quicken is absolutely necessary yet, especially since I have high concentration and you can make short "retreats" and "diplomatic retreats" to do uninterrupted healing. I also don't really understand the need for spell penetration either, a good whack with a shattermantle weapon is already good enough. Quickened Blade Barrier IS good, but I really can't think of a severe occasion where I cannot cast it ahead of time or in the middle of a fight (right after using Diplomacy). I admit, a Empower Maxed BB does a severe lot of damage, but I definitely believe you can cover more range and damage with a keen falchion of true good while using up FAR less SP.

[Polarkin]

To the OP:

My recommendation would be to drop IMT and replace it with Empower or Empower Healing and still take toughness at level 18.

As for which specifically, well that's a tough one. Empower will definitely enhance your BB and add another 50% on to your heals but at a higher sp cost. I don't really think that it's of value to the cleric nukes due to the added cost and the CC (greater command) and insta-kills (slay, destruction, banish, dismiss) don't benefit from it at all. With Empowered Healing you get a 50% bonus to all your cures and heal and mass heal. If you take the enhancements the additional sp cost is reduced to 6sp and with a lorriks necklace it's further reduced to 4. 50% more healing for 4 or 6 more sp is a pretty powerful addition to your healing abilities. But... the value usually isn't fully realized unless you are raiding on a somewhat consistent basis.

So, in my mind, the decision boils down to this:

If you are planning on raiding consistently then empowered heal is the more optimal choice (especially given the fewer sp you will have not being a pure cleric). If you aren't going to be consistently raiding then empower will most likely be of bigger benefit to your ability to solo and group.

I'm a 1 Fighter (eventually 2) dip as well. To be honest, I have not found an occasion where Quicken is absolutely necessary yet, especially since I have high concentration and you can make short "retreats" and "diplomatic retreats" to do uninterrupted healing. I also don't really understand the need for spell penetration either, a good whack with a shattermantle weapon is already good enough. Quickened Blade Barrier IS good, but I really can't think of a severe occasion where I cannot cast it ahead of time or in the middle of a fight (right after using Diplomacy). I admit, a Empower Maxed BB does a severe lot of damage, but I definitely believe you can cover more range and damage with a keen falchion of true good while using up FAR less SP.

I am very perplexed regarding some of your statements. I played an 18clr/2fighter that I 2x +1Lesser Reincarnated into an 18clr/2monk. If you can't think of any severe occasion where a quickened bladebarrier can mean the difference between life and death I have to wonder a) what level are you? and b) do you solo level appropriate content at all?

I have to believe that you are, at most, in the mid-level range (10-15) where the mobs aren't hitting hard and have fewer hitpoints if you believe that your wielding of a keen falchion of any suffix is even remotely comparable damage wise to a maximized + empowered blade barrier. You will never be a melee DPS machine comparable to a barbarian, tempest ranger, kensai fighter, or monk no matter how many feats you take or how many points you put into strength... that doesn't mean that you can't do meaningful dps situationally at all but you will never compare to a full melee dps class. Meaningful dps, for me, is defined as the ability to kill mobs that are not compatible with the application of consistent bladebarrier damage (basically casters, archers, and the occassional high evasion/reflex save mob). Example: If you are doing New Invasion (lvl 18 quest) as an 18clr/2fighter and go through 3 rooms each with 2-4 melee based mobs you will definitely spend more sp healing yourself if you stick with your melee attack than you will by rounding all 6-12 of those mobs up and dropping one bladebarrier to kill them all. Dynamics change when you are grouping primarily because the other 1-5 people in your group will inevitably fail to take advantage of your bladebarrier, in that scenario you may indeed get more mileage out of healing your group while doing some limited melee dps.

I don't say this to be derogatory or disrespectful at all, I just can't help but consider that perhaps you haven't experienced a full gambit of grouping, soloing, and raiding experiences for an 18/2 battlecleric. But I could be completely mistaken, everybody has different play styles.

[acidtiger]

What Polarkin said.

If you are doubting the effectiveness of Quicken then you haven't experienced enough content yet. Three clerics and they all have quicken no matter how high their concentration is. Kiting w/o quicken, healing some fights w/o quicken = Death. And even though you are a battle cleric, with 18 lvls of cleric, you are still a cleric and thus expected to heal. Being in the thick of a melee battle and being able to pop off a quickened mass heal is a very strong ability to have.

[Kralgnax]

To the OP:

My recommendation would be to drop IMT and replace it with Empower or Empower Healing and still take toughness at level 18.

Toughness at 18 (and some racial enhancements immediately after it) was not seriously in doubt. I am considering dropping IMT, but if I do, it will probably be to pick up a spell penetration feat.

However, I think that for level 15, Empower it is.

Quicken has been very nice already for running into a nest of baddies and throwing up some combo of greater command and/or blade barrier.

Thanks all!