still worth it to keep critical rage?

[Aaxeyu]

$o it make$ perfect $ence why I'm waiting. Thi$ way I only have to change thing$ around once.

No, it still doesn't make sense. Why would you choose to be subpar now, only for the possibilty that in an unknown future there might come a PrE that maybe will require you to change a feat.

It's not as smart as you think it is.

[maddmatt70]

Several disagree with me on this, but I say that someday, a weapon will come out that makes crit rage more powerful than FB, while using that weapon only, of course.

If you've held onto it this long, why stop now? Eventually your time will come. Wait for it.

I have seen you post this before, but what kind of weapon would make crit rage 2 worthwhile? My guess is where you are going with this is the Epic Deathnip. I would presume the epic Deathnip could be a crit range of 17-20 X5. With crit rage that becomes 15-20 x5. Is that even better then FB with the same weapon? How good a weapon does this weapon have to be and how realistic is it for a weapon that good to be put in the game?

[Ulf]

I have seen you post this before, but what kind of weapon would make crit rage 2 worthwhile? My guess is where you are going with this is the Epic Deathnip. I would presume the epic Deathnip could be a crit range of 17-20 X5. With crit rage that becomes 15-20 x5. Is that even better then FB with the same weapon? How good a weapon does this weapon have to be and how realistic is it for a weapon that good to be put in the game?

As I showed earlier it takes at least a x5 base crit multiplier for CR2 to out dps the contribution of +3 crit multiplier on 19/20 of FB. First assume FB and CR2 have same damage mods, thus one can simply compare crit power of each.
Crit power = (#noncrits) + (#crits)*(crit multiplier)

If the theoretical x5 weap has a base crit of 20 (19-20 w/IC):
CR2=15+4*5=35, FB=17+2*8=33
DPS increase is (35-33)/33 = 6.06%

If the theoretical x5 weap has a base crit of 19-20 (17-20 w/IC) highly unlikely:
CR2=13+6*5=43, FB=15+2*5+2*8=41
DPS increase is (43-41)/41 = 4.88%

However, FB has more damage mods than CR2. The % increase in dps from vicious and str would only have to be ~6% for FB to win out even with a x5 base crit multiplier. So it would really take a x6 base crit multiplier for the CR2 to be the clear winner over a FB. As madd implied, it is extremely unlikely such a weapon will be introduced into the game.

Now, that said, a CR2 barb will definetly have a sizable advantage with crit effect weapons like banishing or puncturing or some new unintroduced crit "burst-like" effect.

[blitzschlag]

How good a weapon does this weapon have to be and how realistic is it for a weapon that good to be put in the game?

how realistic was/is the epic sos? and if you have the time/guts to grind for 2 epic deathnips once theyre there, theyre better be off the chart (as they were in the old days)...

[Missing_Minds]

No, it still doesn't make sense. Why would you choose to be subpar now, only for the possibilty that in an unknown future there might come a PrE that maybe will require you to change a feat.

It's not as smart as you think it is.

Sub par.. meaning I blow $$$ to make my character be a strain on healing when I end up in a lot of BYOH pugs with the possibility of blowing $$$ again when the other PrEs come out and I like them better? Very brilliant, aren't you.

Tell you what, you give me the $20 to $30 that I'm going to need for it and I'll do it. Put your money where your mouth is.

[maddmatt70]

how realistic was/is the epic sos? and if you have the time/guts to grind for 2 epic deathnips once theyre there, theyre better be off the chart (as they were in the old days)...

I actually think d12 damage crit range 17-20 x5 seeker +10 a red slot is realistic for the epic death nip. I still do not think that makes crit rage worthwhile in comparison to FB. As Ulf points out it needs to be a x6 weapon to be worthwhile.

[Aaxeyu]

Sub par.. meaning I blow $$$ to make my character be a strain on healing when I end up in a lot of BYOH pugs with the possibility of blowing $$$ again when the other PrEs come out and I like them better? Very brilliant, aren't you.

Tell you what, you give me the $20 to $30 that I'm going to need for it and I'll do it. Put your money where your mouth is.

So the true reason is that you can't afford a feat change? Then why the heck didn't you just say so in the first place...

Or is it somehow more important to have a good character in the future than to have a good character now?

[blitzschlag]

I actually think d12 damage crit range 17-20 x5 seeker +10 a red slot is realistic for the epic death nip. I still do not think that makes crit rage worthwhile in comparison to FB. As Ulf points out it needs to be a x6 weapon to be worthwhile.

well, we might see something like superior maiming for this one

[maddmatt70]

well, we might see something like superior maiming for this one

Yes forgot about the maining aspect and I concur superior maiming would be a possiblity.

[Missing_Minds]

So the true reason is that you can't afford a feat change? Then why the heck didn't you just say so in the first place...
Or is it somehow more important to have a good character in the future than to have a good character now?

Why spend $20 when I'd only have to spend $10.

[Aaxeyu]

Why spend $20 when I'd only have to spend $10. Do you really have that much money to throw around? I don't. So you really won't put up, but then again you can't shut up either.

As for good character. HA. Such an ego thinking that if you aren't a particular cookie cutter build you are worthless. Really pathetic. You're done now.

If you're going to spend $10 anyways (does a single feat respec at level 20 cost that much?!), why don't you just do it now and stick with FB?
FB is better than CR, and it's actually in the game too, unlike ravager and occult slayer. You would likely have time to grind a new feat respec by the time any of those PrEs comes to the live server.

Misinterpeting my post, putting words in my mouth and insulting me in the process, nice. Poor kitten.

[blitzschlag]

you guys never cease to amaze me

[Emili]

The weapon would have to have a significant x for a crit rage barb to produce more dps then the berzerker... I imagine deathnips would be pretty nice but really, not that nice.

I was very happy switching out of crit rage ... crit rage was nice while it was in style but times change... we're not on giant hold anymore, Crit rage barbs started loosing luster as alacrity started becoming more common and the latest trends turning towards epic and fortification mob yeilds moreso.

Out with the old in with the new... If you look back through the ideas of dps in this game you find that it's been ever shifting all along. Pally's and fighters were Higher DPS before gianthold (then nerfed back) and crit ragee introduced... tapering off as ascension chamber came about barbs became all the rage... then alacrity took hold as it became more common place, tempest +rams ... then back to barbs(FB) and even pallys(kotc) and fighter(kensai) got some boosting - I'd wagger that kotc and kensai would out DPS much the old crit rage barbs in much more content at the moment. That's what MMO's tend to when more options, content, equipment are introduced - they have to do it in order to place interest, make people play and farm for the next great thing.

[Strakeln]

I have seen you post this before, but what kind of weapon would make crit rage 2 worthwhile? My guess is where you are going with this is the Epic Deathnip. I would presume the epic Deathnip could be a crit range of 17-20 X5. With crit rage that becomes 15-20 x5. Is that even better then FB with the same weapon? How good a weapon does this weapon have to be and how realistic is it for a weapon that good to be put in the game?

Gotta think outside the box, matt. Don't try and work within the rules you know, rules change.

Consider it like this: what made crit rage so powerful? I'll give you a hint: FB alone would not have killed crit rage... other changes occurred that dealt the killing blow. There's nothing to say that effects that favor Crit Rage in similar ways won't be introduced in the future. I'd say it's more likely than not.

[maddmatt70]

Gotta think outside the box, matt. Don't try and work within the rules you know, rules change.

Consider it like this: what made crit rage so powerful? I'll give you a hint: FB alone would not have killed crit rage... other changes occurred that dealt the killing blow. There's nothing to say that effects that favor Crit Rage in similar ways won't be introduced in the future. I'd say it's more likely than not.

I disagree FB alone killed crit rage due to its superiority. If you are referring to stat damage nerfs I just shrug because stat damage has never worked on red names. The key in DDO has always been what works on red names.

[Oreg]

Until Occult Slayer and Ravager comes out so I can see all options for my Human barb, I'm keeping it. (if I were WF, I'd be waiting on the Juggernaut as well.)

Crit rage II is the best melee way to remove constructs and outsiders with smiters/banishers. That is the primary advantage you currently have.

Ditto on my twf barb. Waiting to see what Occult Slayer and Ravager bring and then ill TR or more likely LR to redistribute stats and feats to optimize. I know its inaccurate but I can't get beyond that FB is really a thf PrE.

[Strakeln]

I disagree FB alone killed crit rage due to its superiority. If you are referring to stat damage nerfs I just shrug because stat damage has never worked on red names. The key in DDO has always been what works on red names.

No it hasn't, that's just what Shade says. If it were true, why were so many barbs carrying w/p rapiers?

Furthermore, you're still inside that little box. I give you a very valid and real example, you respond with nothing more than a deflection, yet still refuse to consider effects that you haven't thought of. I mean, come on, they add new weapon effects **** near every update...

[maddmatt70]

No it hasn't, that's just what Shade says. If it were true, why were so many barbs carrying w/p rapiers?

Furthermore, you're still inside that little box. I give you a very valid and real example, you respond with nothing more than a deflection, yet still refuse to consider effects that you haven't thought of. I mean, come on, they add new weapon effects **** near every update...

If those effects work on red names and are better then dps or they make the trash more important to quest completion, but I would not hold my breath on either account. The reason why barbs carried w/p rapier was to kill trash quicker, but the reality is that were/are many ways to kill trash quickly and so I say shrug.

[Strakeln]

If those effects work on red names and are better then dps or they make the trash more important to quest completion, but I would not hold my breath on either account. The reason why barbs carried w/p rapier was to kill trash quicker, but the reality is that were/are many ways to kill trash quickly and so I say shrug.

90%-95% of your time is spent killing trash. I find it difficult to ignore.

[maddmatt70]

90%-95% of your time is spent killing trash. I find it difficult to ignore.

Mass hold monster, flesh to stone, stunning blow and or weighted, firewall, DBF, vorpals, dps, etc.. etc. we could go on and on.. There were always tons of alternatives to w/p to kill the mobs quickly and the threat level of mobs has always been for the most part pretty insiginificant.

The fastest way to complete a quest if we are talking about time efficiency is to ignore or not kill anything excpet what has to be killed. Do not kill anything but what you have to kill means basically you only have to kill red names anyway so I fail to really see your point.