"Use your stuff for me" - a discussion

[Mosch]

Recently, in prison of the planes, I had a short arguement. A pretty stupid one, too.

Basically, after the quest started and I had buffed people up with Blur and Greater Heroism (I play a wizard, obviously), someone demanded Jump to be cast on him. I asked why, because I could not see the need for it in PoP - this was obviously wrong, as I was told that I should stop asking and cast the spell. The whole way he talked to me did not sit well with me, so I got sarcastic, was told I had an attitude problem and was arrogant and this was probably my first character, also he had a higher kill count than me and should know better and basically the situation escalated until some part of our brains remembered that we were a) not 3 years old and b) just playing a game and made us stop our stupid quarrel. And yes, I did cast jump on him in the end and even gave him a jump clickie I found

Now the main problem with me was a) I did not immediatly cast jump after being asked for it and b) I did not keep haste up all the time (to be honest, I rarely used it on this quest).
I can understand that people want to be hasted all the time (it's a great spell, after all), but on the other hand I sometimes like to have fun with my spell points and I honestly don't think that PoP on normal is a great deal of trouble for level 14 characters (and, indeed, we finished the quest with very few problems).
The jump thing, on the other hand, hints to a different idea: The idea that there are things casters just do when asked for. Similar things happened to a cleric, who was told to cast Mass Heal to top the group off and refused. Both times the other player felt entitled to some part of the caster's ressources. In a limited sense I agree with it: I expect a cleric to heal me. Not necessarily keep me at 100%, but keep me alive in case I make a mistake and attract too much aggro, or maybe I just lag into a mob. On the other hand, I feel obligated to Blur everyone, just because it is so very useful, and probably also GH the group, especially if there's no bard.

BUT: What about the underlying problem? Do you think everyone in the party is entitled to the ressources of everyone else? Or should you just bring your own **** heals/jump pots/rage clickies/whatever and if you get healed by cleric/buffed by the wizard/shouted at by the barbarian it's a bonus? What if someone is blind and someone else has a potion while the blinded player has not? Where does self suffiency end?
I honestly don't know for sure what I would say.

[ArichValtrahn]

The prevailing opinion around here is that you should be self-sufficient. If you require jump you should have a means to provide it to yourself.

Of course, this is also a team game so you should be willing to help one another.

Neither of those addresses a bad attitude on the part of the jump requester, though.

[stainer]

Did you ever get why he wanted jump?

[Mosch]

When we cooled down, he explained to me that he wanted jump so he could kite the mobs.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

With an outlook like that, I'd have cast greater dispell on him instead and removed my original buffs.

When we cooled down, he explained to me that he wanted jump so he could kite the mobs.

Well there is reason enough not to cast it. That's just annoying when people do that.

[Spisey]

With an outlook like that, I'd have cast greater dispell on him instead and removed my original buffs.



Well there is reason enough not to cast it. That's just annoying when people do that.

/signed!

And this is a reminder why web is your friend! No kiting!

That and **** off clerics / fvs with crit bb's going!

[Missing_Minds]

When we cooled down, he explained to me that he wanted jump so he could kite the mobs.

whytf do you bother kiting mobs in PoP? Maybe in the end fight possibly, but not at any point in the rest of the quest.

[Rasczak]

whytf do you bother kiting mobs in PoP? Maybe in the end fight possibly, but not at any point in the rest of the quest.

What I want to know...kiting mobs is only for certain situations. Kiting every mob in every situations is just annoying, plus I dare the kiter to try take aggro off me :P

End of the day, everyone plays the way they want to so they can enjoy their time. I may ask for a buff now and then because an extended version is better than a clickie but honestly anyone demanding buffs is either really new or really lazy.

Getting into an argument over jump seems like the pointless and childish drivel I see starting to creep into my groups. I may need to stop Pugging soon and go casual.....coz I'm hardcore and solo everything

Only advice I can offer is, a well buffed party is usually more successful when conserving spell points and resources than an unbuffed party, a well buffed party is also an arrogant party that will die and point fingers You either offer yourself up for buffs or you don't, being a team effort doesn't it stand to reason that you protect your party members within reason?

[Anderei]

In PoP I would cast at least a short haste in every cell ('cept the beholders o'course) short before you open and for the endfight, since you want to kill these mini-bosses ASAP and with at least semi-decent DPS this does more than a firewall. That are how many hastes in total? 6? 8? Don't know, but that ones should really be done IMHO. If you wouldn't want to do that also, I too would argue about your attitude I usually deal buffs out without arguing with my bard when I'm asked for it, except its really stupid like before a beholder fight, otherwise a short answer "cause I want to kite", from him would have stoped the argument early.

[Cyr]

There is 'my stuff' discussion here. Your playing an arcane. Part of your role in party is to cast haste. If people are not hasted dps goes down. If your not keeping the party hasted then you will get blacklisted from groups. There is no argument about this. It's like a caster who goes into wiz king without firewall. It shows a gross misunderstanding of game dynamics.

Jump on the other hand is not a critical buff in PoP. There is a reason to cast it however as it is useful in maneuvering if you are good at doing it. This is annoying if they want to kite mobs with it however, unless they are an arcane or divine using persistent aoe damage spells.

As for self sufficiency arguments they are nonsense in this context. It is never more efficient for others to buff haste and it is only more efficient for jump if they are level 18+ which if your doing PoP I'm guessing they were not.

[Zenako]

As for self sufficiency arguments they are nonsense in this context. It is never more efficient for others to buff haste and it is only more efficient for jump if they are level 18+ which if your doing PoP I'm guessing they were not.

Why the 18+ cutoff? Jump spell gains its maximum effect at level 11 for a +30 boost.

Curious?

[hermespan]

There is 'my stuff' discussion here. Your playing an arcane. Part of your role in party is to cast haste. If people are not hasted dps goes down. If your not keeping the party hasted then you will get blacklisted from groups. There is no argument about this. It's like a caster who goes into wiz king without firewall. It shows a gross misunderstanding of game dynamics.

Jump on the other hand is not a critical buff in PoP. There is a reason to cast it however as it is useful in maneuvering if you are good at doing it. This is annoying if they want to kite mobs with it however, unless they are an arcane or divine using persistent aoe damage spells.

As for self sufficiency arguments they are nonsense in this context. It is never more efficient for others to buff haste and it is only more efficient for jump if they are level 18+ which if your doing PoP I'm guessing they were not.

bards can caste haste too. In the absence of a bard, it's the arcane's job. I do agree with the firewall in wiz king sentiment. That's just ********. It also adds +1 dodge bonus to ac and saves, in addition to the 15% attack speed increase, so it has a compound benefit.

As well if you hear "haste on [char name] in 5...4...3...2...1" you missed it. I shouldn't need to say anything in the first place. I'm not casting it again for 3.5 minutes. I can do more DPS with one firewall than you'll gain with those SP I'm wasting. People that don't gravitate to the caster when their haste is running down between fights are just plain annoying.

You have the same timer I do, use it!

[Phidius]

With as many mobs that chain Greater Dispel, I find that you really need to be able to provide for yourself if there's a particular buff you need to play the game.

Kite the mobs? What class was he playing that he couldn't cast it himself, yet still feel the need to kite?

[Samadhi]

Jump can be phenomenally useful for a variety of in-game combat twitchness - so I can understand the benefit of it even though, for myself, I would never bother to ask for it because I'm too lazy to care.

That being said, if at level 14 you don't have enough mana to keep the group hasted through the entire quest - that is a significant issue that I would look into. What are you spending mana on? Did you just give everyone 28 minute blurs/GH's that they really didn't need to begin with?

I rarely expect wizards to carry any specific buffs. But if I was not being kept hasted, I can guarantee that I wouldn't be grouping with you again.

[Zenako]

Ignoring the stuff about wizards for a moment. Was the cleric who got asked to cast mass "Heal" going around and topping off each character with a single target spell like CURE serious Wounds, or was he also casting spells like Cure LIght WOunds MASS, that would get everyone at once for few spell points? It is also possible that the cleric in question was using a CSW wand to top people off and saving his SPELL points for battle triage instead.

Would have been interesting to hear the whole story on that one too. (PS The MASS Heal Spell is not even close to being available for a 14th level cleric...and you can usually get more bang for the buck from lower level healing that gets Potency or Devotion pumped (or Effiecany(sp) Pots).

As for the Haste mindset. It can be like a drug to many. They get so used to having their characters zoom about on the spell, that any time they are not hasted, they feel like they are stuck in Solid Fog. The truth is that for many battles, the advantage is almost meaningless at those levels, since mobs live so short a time, that the difference might only be them getting an extra swing or two before dying anyway. In quests where DPS is the only solution, then yes, Haste is an extremely valuable addition, almost the best thing you can do. But in battles or areas where special effects rule (like banishing or disrupting), nothing lives long enough to make a lot of difference. With characters in the level 14 range, I am hoping that at least a few had the right tools for the job. If they did not, then yes, it resorts to a DPS beatdown and once again haste rules, as it does for most boss battles, since they are DPS beatdowns.

[Kirachan]

Ignoring the stuff about wizards for a moment. Was the cleric who got asked to cast mass "Heal" going around and topping off each character with a single target spell like CURE serious Wounds, or was he also casting spells like Cure LIght WOunds MASS, that would get everyone at once for few spell points? It is also possible that the cleric in question was using a CSW wand to top people off and saving his SPELL points for battle triage instead.

Would have been interesting to hear the whole story on that one too. (PS The MASS Heal Spell is not even close to being available for a 14th level cleric...and you can usually get more bang for the buck from lower level healing that gets Potency or Devotion pumped (or Effiecany(sp) Pots).

That cleric was me.
Well, of our party about 3 people where down to about 3/4 of their health. I don't usually top off at all between fights, it's just much more cost-effective to wait till they get some more damage and throw in a bigger cure.
Now, that one guy asked for a mass heal and I wasn't really thinking about it and told him I didn't have that yet. He began complaining about my "wisecracking" and got a bit insulting. Apparently he just wanted any mass cure, but really, I didn't thought it necessary, and after his comment even less so.

[Zenako]

That cleric was me.
Well, of our party about 3 people where down to about 3/4 of their health. I don't usually top off at all between fights, it's just much more cost-effective to wait till they get some more damage and throw in a bigger cure.
Now, that one guy asked for a mass heal and I wasn't really thinking about it and told him I didn't have that yet. He began complaining about my "wisecracking" and got a bit insulting. Apparently he just wanted any mass cure, but really, I didn't thought it necessary, and after his comment even less so.

Cool.... quite a few players who never touch/play a healing class character are often somewhat clueless about things from what I have seen. One reason I see so much self sufficiency in guilds is that I would guess a lot of long time guilded players have rosters of characters which include at least one healer among them (perhaps not player much, but at least enough to get a feel of the class).

As you have learned, topping off is an excellent way to waste SP, (which is why I was wondering about CSW wands being used). It can sometimes be amusing seeing how low you can sustain the party at and not lose anyone (especially amongst friends). (Quicken helps you to cut it even closer...).

[Riorik]

Would have been interesting to hear the whole story on that one too.

Same.

As a cleric, it's my job, not yours, to manage my contribution to the party/raid. I can think of many reasons and situations where I would always versus when I wouldn't top off the party. Factors that play into this would be quest knowledge, perception of how the party is doing, how they're doing (are they known solid players or unknown puggers) and do they seem to be self sufficient or not.

Absolutely in a situation where I know a shrine is close, the party is handling everything well, spell points are tight (this one usually isn't a factor if other things are going well) and I know that although they're at 2/3rds hit points, it still means they have 300+...I might not top them off.

[Anderei]

The cleric thing is going a little of topic, but I usually top off with wands, especially since I leveled a hagglebot, hardly a reason not to do so (except the party really runs smooth and easy), (I do so ever since I dropped dead with -10 health with a desintegrate, when I was "85% of health is good enough"). Compared by the amounts of money you have with a capped character hardly a reason not to have a few CSW wands with you. And if you are bored while waiting for something, you might even take out the Ethernal CMW (or as I call it, the magic blessing of topping) just to pester people I love it when they go "Ah, stop doing that".

[Uska]

Your spell points your rules, in pop I just try to keep the group hasted while clearing and then just before they start the rooms I dont worry about it to much while clearing as I have made it clear that all hastes will be centered on me so if your haste is running out head for me. Now I will run forward if they tank is fighting to catch him in the center of effect.


ITs my sp and I like to run fast as well.