"Use your stuff for me" - a discussion

[Mosch]

Recently, in prison of the planes, I had a short arguement. A pretty stupid one, too.

Basically, after the quest started and I had buffed people up with Blur and Greater Heroism (I play a wizard, obviously), someone demanded Jump to be cast on him. I asked why, because I could not see the need for it in PoP - this was obviously wrong, as I was told that I should stop asking and cast the spell. The whole way he talked to me did not sit well with me, so I got sarcastic, was told I had an attitude problem and was arrogant and this was probably my first character, also he had a higher kill count than me and should know better and basically the situation escalated until some part of our brains remembered that we were a) not 3 years old and b) just playing a game and made us stop our stupid quarrel. And yes, I did cast jump on him in the end and even gave him a jump clickie I found

Now the main problem with me was a) I did not immediatly cast jump after being asked for it and b) I did not keep haste up all the time (to be honest, I rarely used it on this quest).
I can understand that people want to be hasted all the time (it's a great spell, after all), but on the other hand I sometimes like to have fun with my spell points and I honestly don't think that PoP on normal is a great deal of trouble for level 14 characters (and, indeed, we finished the quest with very few problems).
The jump thing, on the other hand, hints to a different idea: The idea that there are things casters just do when asked for. Similar things happened to a cleric, who was told to cast Mass Heal to top the group off and refused. Both times the other player felt entitled to some part of the caster's ressources. In a limited sense I agree with it: I expect a cleric to heal me. Not necessarily keep me at 100%, but keep me alive in case I make a mistake and attract too much aggro, or maybe I just lag into a mob. On the other hand, I feel obligated to Blur everyone, just because it is so very useful, and probably also GH the group, especially if there's no bard.

BUT: What about the underlying problem? Do you think everyone in the party is entitled to the ressources of everyone else? Or should you just bring your own **** heals/jump pots/rage clickies/whatever and if you get healed by cleric/buffed by the wizard/shouted at by the barbarian it's a bonus? What if someone is blind and someone else has a potion while the blinded player has not? Where does self suffiency end?
I honestly don't know for sure what I would say.

[ArichValtrahn]

The prevailing opinion around here is that you should be self-sufficient. If you require jump you should have a means to provide it to yourself.

Of course, this is also a team game so you should be willing to help one another.

Neither of those addresses a bad attitude on the part of the jump requester, though.

[stainer]

Did you ever get why he wanted jump?

[Mosch]

When we cooled down, he explained to me that he wanted jump so he could kite the mobs.

[Anderei]

In PoP I would cast at least a short haste in every cell ('cept the beholders o'course) short before you open and for the endfight, since you want to kill these mini-bosses ASAP and with at least semi-decent DPS this does more than a firewall. That are how many hastes in total? 6? 8? Don't know, but that ones should really be done IMHO. If you wouldn't want to do that also, I too would argue about your attitude I usually deal buffs out without arguing with my bard when I'm asked for it, except its really stupid like before a beholder fight, otherwise a short answer "cause I want to kite", from him would have stoped the argument early.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

With an outlook like that, I'd have cast greater dispell on him instead and removed my original buffs.

When we cooled down, he explained to me that he wanted jump so he could kite the mobs.

Well there is reason enough not to cast it. That's just annoying when people do that.

[Phidius]

With as many mobs that chain Greater Dispel, I find that you really need to be able to provide for yourself if there's a particular buff you need to play the game.

Kite the mobs? What class was he playing that he couldn't cast it himself, yet still feel the need to kite?

[Samadhi]

Jump can be phenomenally useful for a variety of in-game combat twitchness - so I can understand the benefit of it even though, for myself, I would never bother to ask for it because I'm too lazy to care.

That being said, if at level 14 you don't have enough mana to keep the group hasted through the entire quest - that is a significant issue that I would look into. What are you spending mana on? Did you just give everyone 28 minute blurs/GH's that they really didn't need to begin with?

I rarely expect wizards to carry any specific buffs. But if I was not being kept hasted, I can guarantee that I wouldn't be grouping with you again.

[Cyr]

There is 'my stuff' discussion here. Your playing an arcane. Part of your role in party is to cast haste. If people are not hasted dps goes down. If your not keeping the party hasted then you will get blacklisted from groups. There is no argument about this. It's like a caster who goes into wiz king without firewall. It shows a gross misunderstanding of game dynamics.

Jump on the other hand is not a critical buff in PoP. There is a reason to cast it however as it is useful in maneuvering if you are good at doing it. This is annoying if they want to kite mobs with it however, unless they are an arcane or divine using persistent aoe damage spells.

As for self sufficiency arguments they are nonsense in this context. It is never more efficient for others to buff haste and it is only more efficient for jump if they are level 18+ which if your doing PoP I'm guessing they were not.

[Zenako]

Ignoring the stuff about wizards for a moment. Was the cleric who got asked to cast mass "Heal" going around and topping off each character with a single target spell like CURE serious Wounds, or was he also casting spells like Cure LIght WOunds MASS, that would get everyone at once for few spell points? It is also possible that the cleric in question was using a CSW wand to top people off and saving his SPELL points for battle triage instead.

Would have been interesting to hear the whole story on that one too. (PS The MASS Heal Spell is not even close to being available for a 14th level cleric...and you can usually get more bang for the buck from lower level healing that gets Potency or Devotion pumped (or Effiecany(sp) Pots).

As for the Haste mindset. It can be like a drug to many. They get so used to having their characters zoom about on the spell, that any time they are not hasted, they feel like they are stuck in Solid Fog. The truth is that for many battles, the advantage is almost meaningless at those levels, since mobs live so short a time, that the difference might only be them getting an extra swing or two before dying anyway. In quests where DPS is the only solution, then yes, Haste is an extremely valuable addition, almost the best thing you can do. But in battles or areas where special effects rule (like banishing or disrupting), nothing lives long enough to make a lot of difference. With characters in the level 14 range, I am hoping that at least a few had the right tools for the job. If they did not, then yes, it resorts to a DPS beatdown and once again haste rules, as it does for most boss battles, since they are DPS beatdowns.

[Zenako]

As for self sufficiency arguments they are nonsense in this context. It is never more efficient for others to buff haste and it is only more efficient for jump if they are level 18+ which if your doing PoP I'm guessing they were not.

Why the 18+ cutoff? Jump spell gains its maximum effect at level 11 for a +30 boost.

Curious?

[Strakeln]

Recently, in prison of the planes, I had a short arguement. A pretty stupid one, too.

Basically, after the quest started and I had buffed people up with Blur and Greater Heroism (I play a wizard, obviously), someone demanded Jump to be cast on him. I asked why, because I could not see the need for it in PoP - this was obviously wrong, as I was told that I should stop asking and cast the spell. The whole way he talked to me did not sit well with me, so I got sarcastic, was told I had an attitude problem and was arrogant and this was probably my first character, also he had a higher kill count than me and should know better and basically the situation escalated until some part of our brains remembered that we were a) not 3 years old and b) just playing a game and made us stop our stupid quarrel. And yes, I did cast jump on him in the end and even gave him a jump clickie I found

Now the main problem with me was a) I did not immediatly cast jump after being asked for it and b) I did not keep haste up all the time (to be honest, I rarely used it on this quest).
I can understand that people want to be hasted all the time (it's a great spell, after all), but on the other hand I sometimes like to have fun with my spell points and I honestly don't think that PoP on normal is a great deal of trouble for level 14 characters (and, indeed, we finished the quest with very few problems).
The jump thing, on the other hand, hints to a different idea: The idea that there are things casters just do when asked for. Similar things happened to a cleric, who was told to cast Mass Heal to top the group off and refused. Both times the other player felt entitled to some part of the caster's ressources. In a limited sense I agree with it: I expect a cleric to heal me. Not necessarily keep me at 100%, but keep me alive in case I make a mistake and attract too much aggro, or maybe I just lag into a mob. On the other hand, I feel obligated to Blur everyone, just because it is so very useful, and probably also GH the group, especially if there's no bard.

BUT: What about the underlying problem? Do you think everyone in the party is entitled to the ressources of everyone else? Or should you just bring your own **** heals/jump pots/rage clickies/whatever and if you get healed by cleric/buffed by the wizard/shouted at by the barbarian it's a bonus? What if someone is blind and someone else has a potion while the blinded player has not? Where does self suffiency end?
I honestly don't know for sure what I would say.

The haste argument has been beaten to death. Just keep everyone hasted... all other arguments aside, it's more fun to move faster. As you said, we're here to play a game and have fun, let's maximize the fun.

The jump question is a little bit different. Until certain items are found, jump is one thing that no character can provide themselves with. Even haste is not like this - haste potions are short in duration, but you can still provide the same effect as caster haste. Jump potions are not only short in duration, they are only 1/3rd as effective! Now, once you can get to Amarath, a high-level jump clickie becomes available. There's no excuse for those who ask for jump after they've completed ToD a few times... **** it grinds my gears when someone (say, a cleric) asks for jump in ToD... then at the end of part 2, I offer them Morah's belt (the jump clickie) free of charge and they say no. Those players don't get jump anymore, not from me.

As far as why jump is necessary in every quest: in DDO, twitch skills allow one to avoid attacks. In DDO, twitching is not limited to strafing... one may twitch vertically as well.

[Samadhi]

Why the 18+ cutoff? Jump spell gains its maximum effect at level 11 for a +30 boost.

Curious?

I am guessing he is referring to the jump clickie from shavarath that is ML 18.

[Phidius]

Why the 18+ cutoff? Jump spell gains its maximum effect at level 11 for a +30 boost.

Curious?

There's a belt with caster level 15 jump clickies, but it's minimum level 18.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...MorahsBelt.jpg

[Zenako]

I am guessing he is referring to the jump clickie from shavarath that is ML 18.

Perhaps, I know have some of those, and use them before SP (if I remember to) on the characters that happen to have them (like one of my rangers...)

Just the level 18 reference was a little oblique and off tangent...especially for players still working thru PotP.

[Missing_Minds]

When we cooled down, he explained to me that he wanted jump so he could kite the mobs.

whytf do you bother kiting mobs in PoP? Maybe in the end fight possibly, but not at any point in the rest of the quest.

[Strakeln]

Why the 18+ cutoff? Jump spell gains its maximum effect at level 11 for a +30 boost.

I think he was saying that it's never more efficient for players to self-buff (drink potions) haste (as they'd be doing it every 30 seconds), and it is not more efficient for them to self-buff jump prior to level 18 or so (as they likely won't have Morah's belt before lvl 18, and jump potions are inefficient).

[Kirachan]

Ignoring the stuff about wizards for a moment. Was the cleric who got asked to cast mass "Heal" going around and topping off each character with a single target spell like CURE serious Wounds, or was he also casting spells like Cure LIght WOunds MASS, that would get everyone at once for few spell points? It is also possible that the cleric in question was using a CSW wand to top people off and saving his SPELL points for battle triage instead.

Would have been interesting to hear the whole story on that one too. (PS The MASS Heal Spell is not even close to being available for a 14th level cleric...and you can usually get more bang for the buck from lower level healing that gets Potency or Devotion pumped (or Effiecany(sp) Pots).

That cleric was me.
Well, of our party about 3 people where down to about 3/4 of their health. I don't usually top off at all between fights, it's just much more cost-effective to wait till they get some more damage and throw in a bigger cure.
Now, that one guy asked for a mass heal and I wasn't really thinking about it and told him I didn't have that yet. He began complaining about my "wisecracking" and got a bit insulting. Apparently he just wanted any mass cure, but really, I didn't thought it necessary, and after his comment even less so.

[biggin]

As a cleric, I usually just do normal buffs and throw out the requested ones as need be. Sometimes it's ridiculous, sometimes it isn't. Either way, I find it's easier to just humor people at the beginning and ridicule them later.

[Anderei]

As a cleric, I usually just do normal buffs and throw out the requested ones as need be. Sometimes it's ridiculous, sometimes it isn't. Either way, I find it's easier to just humor people at the beginning and ridicule them later.

Thats too true, sometimes I just hit that low-lvl waterbreathing clicky ring just for the fun of it, in a quest where there is nooo water whereever, so everbody has that space helmet for a minute. Especially on my figther or rogue, when people asking ***? I say, well I too wanted to feel to be contributing to the party in the buffing phase