Kensai vs Stalwart DPS

[Nuckin]

Ne 1 know what the difference in dps between a lvl 12 fighter with kensai II and a lvl 12 fighter with Stalwart II in his stance?

Like the actual numbers if both are Twf with dwarven axes?

[AylinIsAwesome]

The actual DPS would depend on so many variables it would be incredibly hard to calculate exactly, but the Kensei will have more DPS since Power Surge gives 2 more damage per swing over the Defensive Stance, plus the Kensei has to take feats to improve their damage through weapon Specialization.

[Nuckin]

Yea I know but mainly torn between what I should Tr my dwarven ranger into...

Was originally thinking going:
12fighter/6ranger/2monk stalwart defender
70 standing ac with ce and stance on, 75 with boost and 86 party buffed next to a full pally
high 60's intim
2 lightning strike d-axes
42 strength with rams and stance... higher with madstone, titans etc...

Everyone seems to like the Kensai builds more due to their massive dps potential... so I am curious as to how much more DPS a lvl 12 Kensai II/tempest I/monk dwarf TWF with dwarven axes does than a 12 kensai II/tempest I/monk?

The ac difference seems to be about 5 or so.... so is the dps so much better on a kensai that it is worth taking over the 5 ac 100% hate generating stalwart? The kensai will relatively have the same stats/skills as the stalwart....and the stalwart will have the AP as well as a few extra feats to take the enhancements/feats that Kensai's take to increase their dmg.... so any thoughts?

[krud]

The difference will be in what the PrEs provide, since both can get the same weapon spec feats.

kensai 2
kensai mastery 2: +2 damage, +4 critical damage (b4 multiplier)
strength surge: +4 damage (from +8 strength)

Stalwart 2
stance: +1 damage (from +3 strength); or +2 damage if odd stat

With dwarven axes i think it would be quite a bit. Ignoring the stances/surges, using a +5holy burst weapon, PA, and no outside buffs, it is ~7-8% more dps. With surges/stances active it is ~9-10% more dps. The more buffs/weapon effects you pile on the less the difference will be. The difference may drop by a few % with most normal buffs and weapon effects added. When fully buffed out to the max with raid buffs, etc, the difference could be more like 2-5%

[AylinIsAwesome]

From what I've heard the extra Hate from the Paladin and Fighter defensive stances are currently broken. Like Krud says the DPS difference will be pretty significant.

If the AC difference is only 5 then I'd say go Kensei

[krud]

With dwarven axes Kensai 2 (with surge) adds ~17dps more than stalwart. Figure your dps output and you'll be able to see how much better Kensai 2 is. For example, if you're around 340 dps then it's ~5% more dps with kensai. The more buffs you throw on (strength, damage, and weapon effects) the less that +17dps matters.

[assamite]

Stalwarts can go into defensive stance without a shield? And if they can, calculate how much faster the kensia is reaching the mob XD

[zed1]

In addition to what others are saying, a Kensai gets benefits that are difficult to quantify. The extra action boosts means that power surge and haste are available for every battle. The extra DC on combat feats is also nice. A 5% weighted weapon in the hands of a reasonably geared kensai is an automatic stun on just about any trash mob in the game (and the occasional orange-name.)

[krud]

Stalwarts can go into defensive stance without a shield? And if they can, calculate how much faster the kensia is reaching the mob XD

yes. Tumble is not affectd by the stance. Much easier to cover ground that way.

[Jay203]

yes. Tumble is not affectd by the stance. Much easier to cover ground that way.

but still much slower than hasted run speed

[MrWizard]

the only thing I can say for a stalwart is you need to get the feats to keep up with the kensai, as well as damage enhancements.

2wf and a good build you will be lower in dps but not too bad (as above)...but if you do not back up with the feats and enhancements, it is much more.

Also, the stance for SDefender can be 'always on' where as a kensai may run out in a long run to the shrine.

Plus, quantifying things like this is hard as each situation warrants. Intim, no damage, slower take down may or may not be better or worse.

A kensai with a high ac would rock. I think you will always be about 12 or 14 lower than a stalwart though, and not get the DR.

[krud]

but still much slower than hasted run speed

There aren't many fights when you'll be in the stance, where you have to cover that much ground. Most of the time it's a stationary boss beating fight. But, if you must turn it off, it's another +1 damage in favor of kensai.

[Nuckin]

Yea I just love to have a good ac and still deal great DPS and just looking though everything I don't see the DPS of a kensai II to out dps the Stalwart II to the point that it would be worth taking over the extra ac and increased dr/ac while shield blocking.... Think it would be better to make a lvl 20 kensai or 18/xx kensai to maximize the dps from that Pre...

[Ulf]

Assuming same gear, same buffs, same feats, etc... except the PrE enhancements. Krud is correct, which yields an average 5.7 damage per swing more for a kensai (4 per non crit, 18 per crit). What that equates to %-wise or DPS-wise, will depend on gear, buffs, bosts, and target.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I'm very interested in making a Stalwart Defender and what i was wondering is....aren't they supposed to be defenders.....thereby allowing other party members to do the damage in a more safe and controlled environment.

Is a SD that doesn't have that great of DPS but can reliably keep aggro and take little or no damage considered a gimped useless character?

[Nuckin]

Depends on who u ask... Most people will tell u that a low dps intimitank is useless and a waste of a spot, but I disagree on that... They just have to be played right... I have seen many tanks stalwart along with the pally defensive pre do an amazing job of holding aggro of mobs/raid bosses and take little to no dmg... to me that is an amazing roll to play especially with a high dps group.... Get all the dps w/o burning as many resources...

I have a lowbie I am rolling up with the pally pre.... has saved so many groups out in gh so far by just turtling up and holding aggro... But I have always been a fan of ac... and DPS... which is why I have been looking into a 12/6/2 stalwart dps.... I realize that the kensaii puts out a little more DPS.... but honestly I love walking through quests hardly getting hit and only being a few points of dps behind the other guy taking all the dmg... That and I love to solo...

[MrWizard]

I have been playing my stalwart defender for a few months through level up and it has been the best melee class/type I have ever rolled up.

I have another fighter that I turned kensai and hate playing him. Why? Cause everything hits him all the time.
My stalwart rarely gets touched in trash mobs or even boss mobs much at all unless a very high level quest.

The DPS I see on my stalwart, for what it is worth is this....(no power attack by the way)

Khopesh, base damage numbers, not all the extras.

Items: bloodstone, +5 khopesh, SD stance
base damage in mod 30s, low 40s.
Crits land usually always over 100 -120.

Add a damage boost clickie (human vers) and some buffs from bards and such I have gotten as high as 160 on a crit (x3)

This is not counting all the extra blasts, bursts, etc.


I am sure that base number is diff for the kensai that has all the right stuff.
However, I can keep that same dps up practically forever and just keep whacking mobs with little healing.

As an example I like to take my defender into sins of attrition and solo it on norm or hard. With the leviks defender, if it hits a few times as I go, will allow me to go all the way to the first shrine to reset boosts without stopping. A few pots, a few wand casts. The named devil makes me stop to fill up though, then I am off.

Kensai in that same place? He will kill a orthon 3 times faster than me I am thinking. However, I doubt without a healer he would make the first big 12 spawn mob or devils and orthons without massive damage.

I prefer stalwart and am wondering what this purple dragon knight is gonna be.

[Bilger]

Don't forget since talking dps if have CE no PA so means another 5 damage per swing loss and then missing the kensai bonuses and prob a spec or 2 and that adds up.

[Emili]

Don't forget since talking dps if have CE no PA so means another 5 damage per swing loss and then missing the kensai bonuses and prob a spec or 2 and that adds up.

To me near every fighter can have both to toggle in or out depending on the party and quest...

I solo sins on my Kensai ... She has both CE and PA... If have to turtle some a kensai may do so, not to the point of a Stawart and much more gear intensive to turtle down. A Kensai may be built to accommodate and functional in it tough gear swapping a pain. I never posted my stats or build but stat wise are the same as Shugar's Kensai/Intimitank featwise and gearwise am somewhat different... but a fighter has feat and pack space.

Larger aspect though imo is hate tanks seem to me the better way to turtle these days... intimidate although nice crowd control, in such places as ToD a stun 'fore you can smack the intimidate key again and the boss is loose for a few seconds...

[Bilger]

I solo sins on a Kensai ... She has both CE and PA... If have to turtle some a kensai may do so, not to the point of a Stawart and much more gear intensive to turtle down a Kensai but can be built to accommodate and functional in it gear swapping a pain though I never posted my stats or build but stat wise are same as Shugar's Kensai/Intimitank featwise and gearwise am somewhat different... but a fighter has feat space.

I know that, he was asking dps so stated what would lose have a kensai/def build that does same with ce and pa he was asking diifference when in ce and such. So thats where was coming from. His question was the difference in dps and was just giving him something else to consider in his numbers.