20 Kensai: TWF Dwarf (DA) or TWF WF (Khopesh)

[Ginetti]

What are the pros and cons of both?

Keep in mind that the goal is to eventualy have Mineral 2 weapons for both, with bursting effects (which occur on a crit event against non crittable/100 per cent fort mobs)

Looking at the Dwarf and Axe combo, I see right away that the 2d8 for each axe, coupled with the Dwarf enhancements of upto +2 to damage and to hit, and inherit +5 of greensteel = 2d8 +7 ( 9 to 25) (with optional +1 or 2 to hit based on your enhancements)
Now imagine with power attack of 5
you're doing 14 to 30 per swing before str!
This crits on a 18 - 20 with Kensai 3.

With Khopesh however, you enjoy a larger crit range of 16 to 20, but must spend a feat to get it, and as Mineral 2, will be doing 1d10 +5 (6 to 15 per hit)
Though, with WF, you can go the extra 3 Power attack for another 3 damage per swing at a cost of another -3 per hit.
So with PA you're doing 9 to 18 per swing.


Can I get a number crunch, if you consider both are lvl 20 with average gear for that level, except both have mineral 2 weapons.

Cheers.

[Bardicus]

Khopesh is always better against mobs that aren't 100% fort - in which case DA moves ahead. With 20 fighter is spending a feat on Khopesh that big a deal?

[Ginetti]

no, i suppose not

[Ulf]

What are the pros and cons of both?

Keep in mind that the goal is to eventualy have Mineral 2 weapons for both, with bursting effects (which occur on a crit event against non crittable/100 per cent fort mobs)

Looking at the Dwarf and Axe combo, I see right away that the 2d8 for each axe, coupled with the Dwarf enhancements of up to +2 to damage and to hit, and inherit +5 of greensteel = 2d8 +7 ( 9 to 25) (with optional +1 or 2 to hit based on your enhancements)
Now imagine with power attack of 5
you're doing 14 to 30 per swing before str!
This crits on a 18 - 20 with Kensai 3.

With Khopesh however, you enjoy a larger crit range of 16 to 20, but must spend a feat to get it, and as Mineral 2, will be doing 1d10 +5 (6 to 15 per hit)
Though, with WF, you can go the extra 3 Power attack for another 3 damage per swing at a cost of another -3 per hit.
So with PA you're doing 9 to 18 per swing.


Can I get a number crunch, if you consider both are lvl 20 with average gear for that level, except both have mineral 2 weapons.

Cheers.

Unfortunately, Baricus is relaying the myth of kopeshes. The real situation is not so cut and dry.

With dwarf DA you can get +2 hit and +2 damage
The WF kopesh with power attack has -3 hit penalty and +3 dmg
Thus, base difference of 5 to hit with 1 more damage on not crit swing.

Also, 2d8 base (avg 9pts) from greensteel DA and 1d10 (avg 5.5) from kopesh
So base difference becomes 5 less to hit and 2.5 lower damage on non crit for kopesh vs DA.

Crit range for kensai DA is 18-20 and 16-20 for kopesh
Base crit damage is from DA is 1.5 higher than kopesh (+10.5 from weap - 9 PA)

So on a 2-15 roll 2.5 less damage and 18-20 roll 1.5 less damage. Over 18 swing thats 41.5 less damage. The difference of a kopesh crit on 16 or 17 and a non crit on DA is about 70-110.
Thus, over 20 swings the avg damage will be (2*90-41.5=138.5) more dmg from kopesh or ~6.9 per swing.

This assumes no fortification and every roll 2 or higher is a hit. But of course this is not the case in game, espically in raids and at higher settings (elite/epic). There is definetly high fort mobs at 50% fort the DA v kopesh is basically equal (+/- 1 per swing) and if kopesh (5 to hit lower than DA) starts missing on 3 or higher the dmg is basically equal.

To sum up,
1. Against all trash mobs on norm/hard (no fort, low-med AC) kopesh wins.
2. Against raid bosses on norm/med and some trash on elite/epic, the kopesh and DA are basically equal.
3. Against raid bosses on elite/epic and most trash on epic/elite, the DA will be the winner.

Overall they are about equal, assuming you play all lvls of content and the feat doesn't have much weight. But if you stick to mainly to low (kopesh) or high (DA) lvl content, you'll definetly see a difference. Also, extra feat is non-negligible even on a ftr.

[Aranticus]

Unfortunately, Baricus is relaying the myth of kopeshes. The real situation is not so cut and dry.

if you want to debunk a myth, i suggest that you have really good knowledge on the subject matter

With dwarf DA you can get +2 hit and +2 damage

to get this you need a total of 12 APs

The WF kopesh with power attack has -3 hit penalty and +3 dmg

this needs 6. kensai is a AP stretched build, that extra AP could mean missing out on a helpful enhancement

Thus, base difference of 5 to hit with 1 more damage on not crit swing.

Also, 2d8 base (avg 9pts) from greensteel DA and 1d10 (avg 5.5) from kopesh
So base difference becomes 5 less to hit and 2.5 lower damage on non crit for kopesh vs DA.

Crit range for kensai DA is 18-20 and 16-20 for kopesh
Base crit damage is from DA is 1.5 higher than kopesh (+10.5 from weap - 9 PA)

So on a 2-15 roll 2.5 less damage and 18-20 roll 1.5 less damage. Over 18 swing thats 41.5 less damage. The difference of a kopesh crit on 16 or 17 and a non crit on DA is about 70-110.
Thus, over 20 swings the avg damage will be (2*90-41.5=138.5) more dmg from kopesh or ~6.9 per swing.

This assumes no fortification and every roll 2 or higher is a hit. But of course this is not the case in game, espically in raids and at higher settings (elite/epic). There is definetly high fort mobs at 50% fort the DA v kopesh is basically equal (+/- 1 per swing) and if kopesh (5 to hit lower than DA) starts missing on 3 or higher the dmg is basically equal.

i have never seen a 0 str kensai, have you. assuming a +2 tome, all points into str. a typical kensai dwarf or wf will have 42 str when power surged. this with all the enhancements and feats will mean a base +16+5+5+2+6+2 = +36 damage for the dwarf and +16+5+8+6+2 = +37 for the wf. both will have +4 crit damage

assuming no seeker weapons, the dwarf will do 45 damage on the d-axe, 147 on crit. the wf will do 42.5 on khopesh and 139.5 on crit. with a seeker +6 item, +6 bard song, these become 51/183 vs 48.5/175.5

assuming same attack speed and all crits confirmed, in 20 attacks, the dwarf do a total of 1365, 1167, 969 damage vs 0%, 50%, 100% fort mobs. the wf will do 1556.5, 1239, 921.5 damage. this is just based on a 42 str. a fully geared kensai will have 18+5+3+3+6+3+8+2+4 = 52 str. this is going to favor the khopesh more than the DA when crittable mobs are factored. the extra 5 damage will add 125 to d-axe, 145 to khopesh on 100% fort mob, 110 vs 120 on 50%

To sum up,
1. Against all trash mobs on norm/hard (no fort, low-med AC).

khopesh wins

2. Against raid bosses on norm/med and some trash on elite/epic, the kopesh and DA are basically equal.

these mobs seldom have more than 50% fort which means khopesh again

3. Against raid bosses on elite/epic and most trash on epic/elite, the DA will be the winner.

on epic i certainly agree, but on elite raid bosses with 50% fort the khopesh win. this is where you miss out, a kensai has a really huge attack bonus. my kensai has +61 to the attack roll with PA off, +55 with PA. it means i do not miss a mob with 56 AC

Overall they are about equal, assuming you play all lvls of content and the feat doesn't have much weight. But if you stick to mainly to low (kopesh) or high (DA) lvl content, you'll definetly see a difference. Also, extra feat is non-negligible even on a ftr.

say the wf does not take PA, it will be 45.5/166.5 for 1469.5, 1167, 864.5. this is just base weapon damage not taking into account burst effect damages which pulls the khopesh further up ie acid burst on d-axe does 2d10x3, khopesh will be 2d10x5 or 11 damage per 20 hits. this will even be more if tier III is acid blast

[Ulf]

if you want to debunk a myth, i suggest that you have really good knowledge on the subject matter
which you apparently do not, or u are simply a troll

this needs 6. kensai is a AP stretched build, that extra AP could mean missing out on a helpful enhancement
such as, all kensai enh, or dwf attack or dwf damage or cap stone or 4 toughness? which a dwf ftr can take all. Or perhaps you want to put in AP to get really high DC for say stunning blow, but that would mean atuo crit, which favors the DA. Or maybe you dump it all in toughness and get 50 hp (which is not even 10% increase generally). But my guess is you are dumping into item defense and jump.

i have never seen a 0 str kensai, have you. assuming a +2 tome, all points into str. a typical kensai dwarf or wf will have 42 str when power surged. this with all the enhancements and feats will mean a base +16+5+5+2+6+2 = +36 damage for the dwarf and +16+5+8+6+2 = +37 for the wf. both will have +4 crit damage
I never said 0 str. And base damage is base, no matter what str or enhancements. Str bonus varies from char to char, and is affected by pots/spells/clickies, which means it varies.
Besides both builds having same str which will mean NO CHANGE IN DAMAGE DIFFERENCE for non-crit vs non-crit or crit vs crit, which is exactly what I showed. The only time it comes in is 16 or 17 roll for kopesh crit vs DA non-crit. Which I gave a reasonable range for, I gave a range specifically because it will be gear and stat and group dependant.

assuming no seeker weapons, the dwarf will do 45 damage on the d-axe, 147 on crit. the wf will do 42.5 on khopesh and 139.5 on crit. with a seeker +6 item, +6 bard song, these become 51/183 vs 48.5/175.5

assuming same attack speed and all crits confirmed, in 20 attacks, the dwarf do a total of 1365, 1167, 969 damage vs 0%, 50%, 100% fort mobs. the wf will do 1556.5, 1239, 921.5 damage. this is just based on a 42 str. a fully geared kensai will have 18+5+3+3+6+3+8+2+4 = 52 str. this is going to favor the khopesh more than the DA when crittable mobs are factored. the extra 5 damage will add 125 to d-axe, 145 to khopesh on 100% fort mob, 110 vs 120 on 50%

To sum up,
1. Against all trash mobs on norm/hard (no fort, low-med AC).

khopesh wins I agree, that was left off in my original post, I will edit to put in. My fault for no proofing before I hit post

2. Against raid bosses on norm/med and some trash on elite/epic, the kopesh and DA are basically equal.

these mobs seldom have more than 50% fort which means khopesh again
50% fort almost negates kopesh gain by itself, and that not the only issue (see below)

3. Against raid bosses on elite/epic and most trash on epic/elite, the DA will be the winner.

on epic i certainly agree, but on elite raid bosses with 50% fort the khopesh win. this is where you miss out, a kensai has a really huge attack bonus. my kensai has +61 to the attack roll with PA off, +55 with PA. it means i do not miss a mob with 56 AC
Well if you haven't noticed, on elite there are plenty of mobs with 56+ AC, and you will have more misses than a dwarf with DA. Even missing on 2 and 3 with 0 fort mobs puts the DA back in the lead (marginally) miss on 4 or higher and its no competition.
Also your +56 to hit is just like your damage and str, it relies on max buffs/pots/items, which is not the case the majority of the time even for a fully geared fully filled out group.

Overall they are about equal, assuming you play all lvls of content and the feat doesn't have much weight. But if you stick to mainly to low (kopesh) or high (DA) lvl content, you'll definetly see a difference. Also, extra feat is non-negligible even on a ftr.

Again, the kopesh is not the best necessarily, it depends on situation. Generally, the higher the level of dungeon the advantage goes to DA.

But thnks for trying to keep the myth alive. It gives a chance to show what a load it is.

[Aranticus]

such as, all kensai enh, or dwf attack or dwf damage or cap stone or 4 toughness? which a dwf ftr can take all. Or perhaps you want to put in AP to get really high DC for say stunning blow, but that would mean atuo crit, which favors the DA. Or maybe you dump it all in toughness and get 50 hp (which is not even 10% increase generally). But my guess is you are dumping into item defense and jump.

kensai III and prereqs = 23 APs
weapon spec = 2 APs
capstone = 2 APs
fighter str = 12 APs

this is already 39 APs add in d-axe vs PA enh you have 51 vs 45. what are you taking with that 29 APs left? item defense and jump is not even in consideration but thanks for the sarcasm

I never said 0 str. And base damage is base, no matter what str or enhancements. Str bonus varies from char to char, and is affected by pots/spells/clickies, which means it varies.
Besides both builds having same str which will mean NO CHANGE IN DAMAGE DIFFERENCE for non-crit vs non-crit or crit vs crit, which is exactly what I showed. The only time it comes in is 16 or 17 roll for kopesh crit vs DA non-crit. Which I gave a reasonable range for, I gave a range specifically because it will be gear and stat and group dependant.

"So on a 2-15 roll 2.5 less damage and 18-20 roll 1.5 less damage. Over 18 swing thats 41.5 less damage. The difference of a kopesh crit on 16 or 17 and a non crit on DA is about 70-110.
Thus, over 20 swings the avg damage will be (2*90-41.5=138.5) more dmg from kopesh or ~6.9 per swing."

if you are referring to this statement then thats where its fuzzy. just using strength bonus and nothing else, a +10 damage will give a d-axe 250 damage and a khopesh 290 or a difference of 40 for an average of 2 damage per swing. a +20 damage gives 500 vs 580 (80 damage difference, average 4). if you calculate it with % then it would stay the same at 14%. 70-110 is not even close unless you run with terribly equipped/buffed players. with a +50 damage bonuse, the difference is 200

khopesh wins I agree, that was left off in my original post, I will edit to put in. My fault for no proofing before I hit post

not faulting you for this, you made it pretty clear in the post itself

Well if you haven't noticed, on elite there are plenty of mobs with 56+ AC, and you will have more misses than a dwarf with DA. Even missing on 2 and 3 with 0 fort mobs puts the DA back in the lead (marginally) miss on 4 or higher and its no competition.

so far i have no difficulty hitting stuff on elite, even in tod. it is very unlikely to find groups doing elite raids without getting the basic buffers (bard especially), debuffers (ie improve destruction, etc)

Also your +56 to hit is just like your damage and str, it relies on max buffs/pots/items, which is not the case the majority of the time even for a fully geared fully filled out group.

and again, not many people will run elite when not properly geared/filled. but if thats the way you run, this i'll salute you

Again, the kopesh is not the best necessarily, it depends on situation. Generally, the higher the level of dungeon the advantage goes to DA.

But thnks for trying to keep the myth alive. It gives a chance to show what a load it is.

on epic, selected mobs with AC in the 60s and/or 100% fort, i fully agree with you that a dwarf using a d-axe with dwarven enhancements have the advantage over the wf using khopesh. myth? you made it a myth. no one denied the conditions of which the d-axe is superior. you just chose to ignore the limitations and flatly state the d-axe is better by calling it a myth

[Erdams]

Aranticus is right here for 95% of the mobs a khopesh wins easily. It has been shown in many threads.

Actaully on fully equiped builds drow rapier, elf scimitar and even heavy picks are better dps than dwarven axes. So if we are to debunk anything lets debunk that dwarven axes is anything special in the current game :P

As for the to hit, only in epic quests will the hit from power attack be a problem for a pure fighter kensai. He has about the highest to hit potential in the game, how do you expect rogues to hit if he cant? hehe

That said the difference between the weapons is not game breaking, so if you feel dwarves are cooler, have a alot of cool ones allready or what ever pick them, if you are only looking for best allround dps, go with a better weapon

[Ulf]

Aranticus is right here for 95% of the mobs a khopesh wins easily. It has been shown in many threads.

Actaully on fully equiped builds drow rapier, elf scimitar and even heavy picks are better dps than dwarven axes. So if we are to debunk anything lets debunk that dwarven axes is anything special in the current game :P

As for the to hit, only in epic quests will the hit from power attack be a problem for a pure fighter kensai. He has about the highest to hit potential in the game, how do you expect rogues to hit if he cant? hehe

That said the difference between the weapons is not game breaking, so if you feel dwarves are cooler, have a alot of cool ones allready or what ever pick them, if you are only looking for best allround dps, go with a better weapon

Kopesh being hands down winner is completely false as I showed.

As to the + to hit I showed that as well. And you are exaggerating PA, I clearly pointed out that missing on a 2 and 3 makes a huge different in dps, NOT MISSING ALL THE TIME. And a dwarf with DA and enhancements running PA will have 5 more to hit than the WF with kopesh running PA and enhancements, that is a fact.

You are like many other perpetuating the myth that kopesh is the best weapon in the game. You assume no misses, no fort, best gear, and max buffs. That is not realistic. Some mobs do have fort, some mobs do have high AC, not everyone has best gear, not all parties have bard + pally + caster +cleric constantly buffing melee with everything possible.

I never said the difference is game breaking, in fact I clearly said it is not. And the OP was asking specifically about dwarf DA v WF kopesh (you might have noticed the title of the thread). Bardicus made a simple 1 line statement claiming kopesh to be superior, hands down, which is not true. I was pointing out the myth that kopesh are hands down the best.

I showed facts, you spout unfounded opnion.

[Ulf]

on epic, selected mobs with AC in the 60s and/or 100% fort, i fully agree with you that a dwarf using a d-axe with dwarven enhancements have the advantage over the wf using khopesh. myth? you made it a myth. no one denied the conditions of which the d-axe is superior. you just chose to ignore the limitations and flatly state the d-axe is better by calling it a myth

Please point to where I said DA is flatly superior. I clearly stated that is gets better at high end content (see the post i made immediatly above yours, perhaps you should reread it). I said the myth was that kopesh is superior weapon period, whcih is what was presented previously in the thread.

As to your damage calc (which you dont show), you claim to have a normal, easily obtainable crit of 290 from a kopesh and 250 from a DA. That is false. That is assuming full buffs from clerics, bards, pots, clickies, spells, power surged, double upgrade shround weap, seeker item, etc.... Not to mention even with all your top gear and top buffs you have 56 to hit, plenty of mobs on elite and epic have 56+ AC, which means misses, which means adv DA.

You accuse me of claiming DA to be best in game. I do not, I clearly show it dependes on what lvl of play you like and what gear/enhancements you choose. You are apparently claiming kopesh is best weapon period, using unrealistic numbers. And insisting that anyone playing anything but solo or casual mode has max gear and max buffs all the time, that mobs dont have fort and mobs dont have AC and mobs wont dispell buffs.

[Erdams]

Your claims are no more backed up than mine, but thanks for claiming that :P

With out enhancements a khopesh is always better than a dwarven axe, except vs heavy fort (not that often), PA really has nothing to do with this. The wf has higher damage potential fully buffed because of the +3 vs 2 to dam that is also pretty clear.

To do the comparison you want to do, and facturing in the +2hit and +2dam, you are spending 12 enchancement points, but dont list a full selection. So are you still taking hp ench, haste boost 4 and 2 more boosts, are you still taking flanking, intimi date, better dc on tactical etc etc. There are so many enhancements that boost the damage, hp, saves, intimi , your dc on trip, stunning etc.

Taking 12 enhancment points for +2 hit and dam, will hurt you some place you cant argue that. Not sure i know that many dwarf fighters who would burn all 12 points here tbh

So feel free to list the enhancements you are picking, so you can back up your claim

If we are talking buffed with raid gear etc, and to honest why would you build to be top dps assuming **** gear, and less dps with good gear? hehe

So here is someone who knows more about this than me who has done the math hehe

(This is on a barb but on kensai the difference would only be bigger. As now you can achieve barb str but get more bonus from crits because of kensai ench, weap spec etc. It is so little that i will only increase the favor for khopesh by a tiny %)

The flaw with the previously posted damage breakdown is that it only factors a margin of the damage enhancements existant in the game.

To break it into an actual build and compare the different weapons:

Dwarven level 20 barbarian, DA

Brb20	Dwarf	Build
TWF	TWF	Fighting Style
		Weapon
DA	DA	Weapon Type
0	0	Extra Critical Threat Range
3	3	Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes	Yes	<Element> Burst
Yes	Yes	<Element> Blast
No	No	<Alignment> Burst
No	No	<Alignment> Blast
		
		Base Damage
9	9	Weapon base damage
5	5	Weapon modifier
27	13	Strength
8	8	Power attack
2	2	Frenzied berserker set
2	2	Shintao monk set
2	2	Racial damage enhancement
9	9	Song
1	1	Prayer

65	51	Total Base
		    
		Effects
7	7	Holy
3,5	3,5	<Element>
21	21	Vicious
2,5	2,5	Slicing
1	1	Force ritual

35	35	Effects Total
100	86	Total Base With Effects
		
		Critical Hits
6	6	Seeker
2	2	Critical threat range
3	3	Critical multiplier
195	153	Base critical damage
35	35	Effects
11	11	<Element> Burst
11	11	<Element> Blast
0	0	Alignment Burst
0	0	Alignment Blast
14	14	Natural 20
18	18	Total seeker damage
22	22	Critical Effects
270	228	Critical Total
		
0	0	Attack 1
100	86	Attack 2
100	86	Attack 3
100	86	Attack 4
100	86	Attack 5
100	86	Attack 6
100	86	Attack 7
100	86	Attack 8
100	86	Attack 9
100	86	Attack 10
100	86	Attack 11
100	86	Attack 12
100	86	Attack 13
100	86	Attack 14
100	86	Attack 15
100	86	Attack 16
100	86	Attack 17
100	86	Attack 18
516	432	Attack 19
530	446	Attack 20
137,3	117	Average Damage
		
		Mob Immunities
0	0	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
0	0	Elemental resistance
		
		Relevant Attack Data
5	5	Minutes lapsed
0	0	Number of haste boosts
0	0	Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
0	0	Haste boost
0	0	Number of Smites
0	0	Divine Sacrifice Interval
No	No	Superior TWF
No	No	Quick draw
		
		Attackspeed
0	0	Number of haste boosts used
83	83	Normal
107,68	107,68	Haste/ Other
107,68	107,68	Haste/ Other/ Boost
538,42	538,42	Total Amount of Attacks
		
73925,2	62995,26	Total Damage
27384,09		Damage/M
246,42	209,98	Damage/S
456,4		Damage Per Second

		Barb Critical Hit (19-20)
6	6	Seeker
6	6	Critical multiplier
390	306	Base critical damage
35	35	Effects
27,5	27,5	<Element> Burst
27,5	27,5	<Element> Blast
0	0	Alignment Burst
0	0	Alignment Blast
14	14	Natural 20
36	36	Total seeker damage
55	55	Critical Effects
516	432	Critical Total

Dwarven level 20 barbarian, Khopesh

Brb20	Dwarf	Build
TWF	TWF	Fighting Style
		Weapon
Khopesh	Khopesh	Weapon Type
0	0	Extra Critical Threat Range
3	3	Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes	Yes	<Element> Burst
Yes	Yes	<Element> Blast
No	No	<Alignment> Burst
No	No	<Alignment> Blast
		
		Base Damage
5,5	5,5	Weapon base damage
5	5	Weapon modifier
27	13	Strength
8	8	Power attack
2	2	Frenzied berserker set
2	2	Shintao monk set
9	9	Song
1	1	Prayer
No	No	Bladesworn
59,5	45,5	Total Base
		    
		Effects
7	7	Holy
3,5	3,5	<Element>
21	21	Vicious
2,5	2,5	Slicing
0	0	Other effects
1	1	Force ritual
35	35	Effects Total
94,5	80,5	Total Base With Effects
		
		Critical Hits
6	6	Seeker
4	4	Critical threat range
3	3	Critical multiplier
178,5	136,5	Base critical damage
35	35	Effects
11	11	<Element> Burst
11	11	<Element> Blast
0	0	Alignment Burst
0	0	Alignment Blast
14	14	Natural 20
18	18	Total seeker damage
22	22	Critical Effects
253,5	211,5	Critical Total
		
0	0	Attack 1
94,5	80,5	Attack 2
94,5	80,5	Attack 3
94,5	80,5	Attack 4
94,5	80,5	Attack 5
94,5	80,5	Attack 6
94,5	80,5	Attack 7
94,5	80,5	Attack 8
94,5	80,5	Attack 9
94,5	80,5	Attack 10
94,5	80,5	Attack 11
94,5	80,5	Attack 12
94,5	80,5	Attack 13
94,5	80,5	Attack 14
94,5	80,5	Attack 15
94,5	80,5	Attack 16
253,5	211,5	Attack 17
253,5	211,5	Attack 18
483	399	Attack 19
497	413	Attack 20
145,23	122,13	Average Damage
		
		Mob Immunities
0	0	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
0	0	Elemental resistance
		
		Relevant Attack Data
5	5	Minutes lapsed
0	0	Number of haste boosts
0	0	Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
0	0	Haste boost
0	0	Number of Smites
0	0	Divine Sacrifice Interval
No	No	Superior TWF
No	No	Quick draw
		
		Attackspeed
0	0	Number of haste boosts used
83	83	Normal
107,68	107,68	Haste/ Other
107,68	107,68	Haste/ Other/ Boost
538,42	538,42	Total Amount of Attacks
		
78192,19	65754,66	Total Damage
28789,37		Damage/M
260,64	219,18	Damage/S
479,82		Damage Per Second

		Barb Critical Hit (19-20)
6	6	Seeker
6	6	Critical multiplier
357	273	Base critical damage
35	35	Effects
27,5	27,5	<Element> Burst
27,5	27,5	<Element> Blast
0	0	Alignment Burst
0	0	Alignment Blast
14	14	Natural 20
36	36	Total seeker damage
55	55	Critical Effects
483	399	Critical Total

Conclusion
Khopesh: 480
Dwarven Axe: 456

480/456=5,2% more dps for the khopesh.

The Khopesh uses a feat, whilst the Dwarven axe uses 12 APs. Both about the same worth depending on build / class.

If the khopesh user would be a WF with maxed PA enhancements, he would have ~498 dps, ~9,2% more dps. (though less to hit).

It really all boils down to what you prefer, and what class / build you're playing, and what quest you're playing.
In most situations however, the Khopesh will be ahead.



EDIT:
Same builds vs 50% fort
DA

Brb20	Dwarf	Build
TWF	TWF	Fighting Style
		Weapon
DA	DA	Weapon Type
0	0	Extra Critical Threat Range
3	3	Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes	Yes	<Element> Burst
Yes	Yes	<Element> Blast
No	No	<Alignment> Burst
No	No	<Alignment> Blast
		
		Base Damage
9	9	Weapon base damage
5	5	Weapon modifier
27	13	Strength
8	8	Power attack
2	2	Frenzied berserker set
2	2	Shintao monk set
2	2	Racial damage enhancement
9	9	Song
1	1	Prayer
No	No	Bladesworn
65	51	Total Base
		    
		Effects
7	7	Holy
3,5	3,5	<Element>
21	21	Vicious
2,5	2,5	Slicing
0	0	Other effects
1	1	Force ritual
35	35	Effects Total
100	86	Total Base With Effects
		
		Critical Hits
6	6	Seeker
2	2	Critical threat range
3	3	Critical multiplier
130	102	Base critical damage
35	35	Effects
11	11	<Element> Burst
11	11	<Element> Blast
0	0	Alignment Burst
0	0	Alignment Blast
14	14	Natural 20
9	9	Total seeker damage
22	22	Critical Effects
196	168	Critical Total
		
0	0	Attack 1
100	86	Attack 2
100	86	Attack 3
100	86	Attack 4
100	86	Attack 5
100	86	Attack 6
100	86	Attack 7
100	86	Attack 8
100	86	Attack 9
100	86	Attack 10
100	86	Attack 11
100	86	Attack 12
100	86	Attack 13
100	86	Attack 14
100	86	Attack 15
100	86	Attack 16
100	86	Attack 17
100	86	Attack 18
335,5	286,5	Attack 19
349,5	300,5	Attack 20
119,25	102,45	Average Damage
		
		Mob Immunities
50	50	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
0	0	Elemental resistance
		
		Relevant Attack Data
5	5	Minutes lapsed
0	0	Number of haste boosts
0	0	Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
0	0	Haste boost
0	0	Number of Smites
0	0	Divine Sacrifice Interval
No	No	Superior TWF
No	No	Quick draw
		
		Attackspeed
0	0	Number of haste boosts used
83	83	Normal
107,68	107,68	Haste/ Other
107,68	107,68	Haste/ Other/ Boost
538,42	538,42	Total Amount of Attacks
		
64206,7	55161,23	Total Damage
23873,59		Damage/M
214,02	183,87	Damage/S
397,89		Damage Per Second

		Barb Critical Hit (19-20)
6	6	Seeker
6	6	Critical multiplier
227,5	178,5	Base critical damage
35	35	Effects
27,5	27,5	<Element> Burst
27,5	27,5	<Element> Blast
0	0	Alignment Burst
0	0	Alignment Blast
14	14	Natural 20
18	18	Total seeker damage
55	55	Critical Effects
335,5	286,5	Critical Total

Khopesh

Brb20	Dwarf	Build
TWF	TWF	Fighting Style
		Weapon
Khopesh	Khopesh	Weapon Type
0	0	Extra Critical Threat Range
3	3	Extra Critical Multiplier (F-Berserker bonus)
Yes	Yes	<Element> Burst
Yes	Yes	<Element> Blast
No	No	<Alignment> Burst
No	No	<Alignment> Blast
		
		Base Damage
5,5	5,5	Weapon base damage
5	5	Weapon modifier
27	13	Strength
8	8	Power attack
2	2	Frenzied berserker set
2	2	Shintao monk set
9	9	Song
1	1	Prayer
No	No	Bladesworn
59,5	45,5	Total Base
		    
		Effects
7	7	Holy
3,5	3,5	<Element>
0	0	Tempest set
0	0	Henshin monk set
0	0	Sneak attack
21	21	Vicious
2,5	2,5	Slicing
0	0	Other effects
1	1	Force ritual
35	35	Effects Total
94,5	80,5	Total Base With Effects
		
		Critical Hits
6	6	Seeker
4	4	Critical threat range
3	3	Critical multiplier
119	91	Base critical damage
35	35	Effects
11	11	<Element> Burst
11	11	<Element> Blast
0	0	Alignment Burst
0	0	Alignment Blast
14	14	Natural 20
9	9	Total seeker damage
22	22	Critical Effects
185	157	Critical Total
		
0	0	Attack 1
94,5	80,5	Attack 2
94,5	80,5	Attack 3
94,5	80,5	Attack 4
94,5	80,5	Attack 5
94,5	80,5	Attack 6
94,5	80,5	Attack 7
94,5	80,5	Attack 8
94,5	80,5	Attack 9
94,5	80,5	Attack 10
94,5	80,5	Attack 11
94,5	80,5	Attack 12
94,5	80,5	Attack 13
94,5	80,5	Attack 14
94,5	80,5	Attack 15
94,5	80,5	Attack 16
185	157	Attack 17
185	157	Attack 18
316,25	267,25	Attack 19
330,25	281,25	Attack 20
121,7	103,5	Average Damage
		
		Mob Immunities
50	50	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
0	0	Elemental resistance
		
		Relevant Attack Data
5	5	Minutes lapsed
0	0	Number of haste boosts
0	0	Tempest/ Zeal/ Capstone
0	0	Haste boost
0	0	Number of Smites
0	0	Divine Sacrifice Interval
No	No	Superior TWF
No	No	Quick draw
		
		Attackspeed
0	0	Number of haste boosts used
83	83	Normal
107,68	107,68	Haste/ Other
107,68	107,68	Haste/ Other/ Boost
538,42	538,42	Total Amount of Attacks
		
65525,84	55726,57	Total Damage
24250,48		Damage/M
218,42	185,76	Damage/S
404,17		Damage Per Second

		Barb Critical Hit (19-20)
6	6	Seeker
6	6	Critical multiplier
208,25	159,25	Base critical damage
35	35	Effects
27,5	27,5	<Element> Burst
27,5	27,5	<Element> Blast
0	0	Alignment Burst
0	0	Alignment Blast
14	14	Natural 20
18	18	Total seeker damage
55	55	Critical Effects
316,25	267,25	Critical Total

Khopesh: 404
DA: 398

404/398=1,5% more dps for the khopesh, vs 50% fort.

And again you should pick what your think is cool, fun, good looking or what ever is your top priority. If having highest dps is your goal then khopesh is best, if highest damage potential is the plan, the warforged with khopesh.

[Vengenance]

Not that I want to jump into the numbers argument, but the most important consideration should be the APs spent on the Dwarven Axe enhancements. On an enhacement starved build there is no way I could sacrfice 12 APs, I'm too into the tactics side of the class, which means I usually grab most of the tactics enhancements. This to me means Khopesh wins hands down.

[Ulf]

Your claims are no more backed up than mine, but thanks for claiming that :P

With out enhancements a khopesh is always better than a dwarven axe, except vs heavy fort (not that often), PA really has nothing to do with this. The wf has higher damage potential fully buffed because of the +3 vs 2 to dam that is also pretty clear.

To do the comparison you want to do, and facturing in the +2hit and +2dam, you are spending 12 enchancement points, but dont list a full selection. So are you still taking hp ench, haste boost 4 and 2 more boosts, are you still taking flanking, intimi date, better dc on tactical etc etc. There are so many enhancements that boost the damage, hp, saves, intimi , your dc on trip, stunning etc.

Taking 12 enhancment points for +2 hit and dam, will hurt you some place you cant argue that. Not sure i know that many dwarf fighters who would burn all 12 points here tbh

So feel free to list the enhancements you are picking, so you can back up your claim

If we are talking buffed with raid gear etc, and to honest why would you build to be top dps assuming **** gear, and less dps with good gear? hehe

So here is someone who knows more about this than me who has done the math hehe

(This is on a barb but on kensai the difference would only be bigger. As now you can achieve barb str but get more bonus from crits because of kensai ench, weap spec etc. It is so little that i will only increase the favor for khopesh by a tiny %)



And again you should pick what your think is cool, fun, good looking or what ever is your top priority. If having highest dps is your goal then khopesh is best, if highest damage potential is the plan, the warforged with khopesh.

Nice try, but maybe you should learn those numbers. There are some assumptions that are either faltly wrong or are not related to the OPs question at hand

1. The comparison you show is for barbs with FB, not fighters with kensai. This will mean x6 crit multiplier and 10% crit vs 20% crit. For fighter the multiplier is x3 and its 15% vs 25%. So you picked the optimal scenerio to favor kopesh, which is not what was being discussed previously. (OP asked kensai, I clearly stated kensai, you choose FB to favor your argument)
2. The damage mods in this calc include 2 double shround upgraded weaps, FB PRE set bonus items (ToD ring and Amar belt), another ToD ring (fully upgraded like the previous one), full bard and cleric buffs, 4 rages (2 mad, 1 barb, 1 spell), include vicious effects from FB. Most of this is impossible for kensai, and rest is best case scenerio assumptions.
3. No misses, it totally ignores the higher to hit of the DA

Your so called expert states that kopesh will win in most situations, but only compares a situation that is bias toward kopesh from the start. Not to mention it is not the situation specifically pointed out in this thread by the OP.

Is it so bad that something other than your precious kopesh can be better in a lot of realisitc situations? Other weapons and other playstyles are just as good. If one way was clearly the best, then that is pretty boring.

[Ulf]

Not that I want to jump into the numbers argument, but the most important consideration should be the APs spent on the Dwarven Axe enhancements. On an enhacement starved build there is no way I could sacrfice 12 APs, I'm too into the tactics side of the class, which means I usually grab most of the tactics enhancements. This to me means Khopesh wins hands down.

Again, kopesh does not "win hands down". If you worry about AP, drop DA damage enhancement and keep DA attack bonus (thus same number of AP as WF enhancements). Still means DA pulls ahead when mob AC goes up (regardless of fort). Even when neither take enhancements for weap, mobs with fort favor DA just from weap base damage. Also, if you put your precious AP into stunning blow, guess what, that favors DA alot.

That you value APs is fine and that could be a reason to not use DA. I assume that means you wouldn't use PA enhancements and that feats are meaningless. I'm not saying DA is the best, I'm am answering the OP question of comparing dwarf TWF DA to WF TWF kopesh both kensai. Both are viable and have better preformance dependant on situation. Why must you and others continue to try and claim kopesh is "hands down the best" when clearly it is not???

[Aaxeyu]

Why must you and others continue to try and claim kopesh is "hands down the best" when clearly it is not???

Khopesh is, hands down the best weapon.
There is a few situations were DA is ahdead (if you spend 12 APs on it).
Most of the time, however, khopesh is ahead of DA, thus making it the best weapon to spec for.

[maddmatt70]

Not that I want to jump into the numbers argument, but the most important consideration should be the APs spent on the Dwarven Axe enhancements. On an enhacement starved build there is no way I could sacrfice 12 APs, I'm too into the tactics side of the class, which means I usually grab most of the tactics enhancements. This to me means Khopesh wins hands down.

I did not spend ap on the axe to hit enhancements on my level 20 fighter only the axe damage enhancements which is only 6 ap. I have no trouble missing even on epic content without a bard. A dwarf with a khopesh looks dumb and since the math indicates the dps is pretty similiar and it does not cost a feat the OP should go for it if they make a dwarf.

[maddmatt70]

on epic, selected mobs with AC in the 60s and/or 100% fort, i fully agree with you that a dwarf using a d-axe with dwarven enhancements have the advantage over the wf using khopesh. myth? you made it a myth. no one denied the conditions of which the d-axe is superior. you just chose to ignore the limitations and flatly state the d-axe is better by calling it a myth

Fighters can have a crazy to-hit so they do not have much trouble hitting so the axe to hit is less advantageous for a fighter and more advantageous for a ranger, rogue, paladin etc.

[Delt]

Actaully on fully equiped builds drow rapier, elf scimitar and even heavy picks are better dps than dwarven axes. So if we are to debunk anything lets debunk that dwarven axes is anything special in the current game :P

Can I see some math behind this claim? I see no obvious reason why those weapons would be better on a fighter in any scenario...but I'm happy to be corrected.

[Ulf]

Fighters can have a crazy to-hit so they do not have much trouble hitting so the axe to hit is less advantageous for a fighter and more advantageous for a ranger, rogue, paladin etc.

Actually the to hit makes a bigger difference to total dps in high end content. The previously claimed +56 to hit for a PA kopesh is maxxed out. For most players the + to hit will be lower. In elite and epic, mobs will often have 50+ AC, and any miss favors the char/weap with + to attack.
Ex: player A does 60 avg damage per hit and misses on 1 or 2 roll. while player B does avg damage of 57 per hit (5% less per hit) and only misses on roll of 1. Both have same dps regardless of any other effects. In case of dwarf DA v WF kopesh the difference in to hit of 5, means 25% dmg per hit less for DA is same dps on mobs with high AC.

[maddmatt70]

Actually the to hit makes a bigger difference to total dps in high end content. The previously claimed +56 to hit for a PA kopesh is maxxed out. For most players the + to hit will be lower. In elite and epic, mobs will often have 50+ AC, and any miss favors the char/weap with + to attack.
Ex: player A does 60 avg damage per hit and misses on 1 or 2 roll. while player B does avg damage of 57 per hit (5% less per hit) and only misses on roll of 1. Both have same dps regardless of any other effects. In case of dwarf DA v WF kopesh the difference in to hit of 5, means 25% dmg per hit less for DA is same dps on mobs with high AC.

Actually have played Epic on my fighter 20-30 times. I know what I speak of from experience. My fighter only has trouble missing in Epic Wiz King when he uses bludgeon weapons to overcome the mobs dr because he is focused in the dwarven war axe and not the warhammer. I have the Kensai tower set and a host of other gear perhaps you forgot to inlcude some of the gear in your calcs or your ac is off.