Stupid question about Two Weapon Fighting

[Drummerman121]

So these are the DnD 3.5 circumstances that I'm used to:

Normal penalties: Primary hand -6, Off hand -10
Off-hand weapon is light: Primary hand -4, Off hand -8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat: Primary hand -4, Off hand -4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat: Primary hand -2, Off hand -2

I was just wondering if it was the same thing on DDO. And what do most TWF builds do about these penalties?

[KKDragonLord]

So these are the DnD 3.5 circumstances that I'm used to:

Normal penalties: Primary hand -6, Off hand -10
Off-hand weapon is light: Primary hand -4, Off hand -8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat: Primary hand -4, Off hand -4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat: Primary hand -2, Off hand -2

I was just wondering if it was the same thing on DDO. And what do most TWF builds do about these penalties?

Dont forget the .5 str bonus for off-hand attacks

[Vallen-Mabar]

Your right, however if you are a ranger the level 18 tempest line removes the -2 penalties to hit with both weapons... Also, if you want to wield two one handed weapons, you can take the "Over-sized weapon" feat, making your offhand always to be treated as a light weapon

[Drummerman121]

Dont forget the .5 str bonus for off-hand attacks

What is this you speak of?

Your right, however if you are a ranger the level 18 tempest line removes the -2 penalties to hit with both weapons... Also, if you want to wield two one handed weapons, you can take the "Over-sized weapon" feat, making your offhand always to be treated as a light weapon

Well what's the most common thing that TWFers do?

[Vallen-Mabar]

Well what's the most common thing that TWFers do?

That is, in my general opinion, because that to me is the most basic knowledge anyone can have in this game over the fact, IMHO.

[QuantumFX]

So these are the DnD 3.5 circumstances that I'm used to:

Normal penalties: Primary hand -6, Off hand -10
Off-hand weapon is light: Primary hand -4, Off hand -8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat: Primary hand -4, Off hand -4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat: Primary hand -2, Off hand -2

I was just wondering if it was the same thing on DDO. And what do most TWF builds do about these penalties?

Yes it's the same in DDO.

Most people simply ignore them. They'll normally do it at low levels because they're idiots and they'll do it at high levels because Turbine gives some ridiculous bonuses to hit at BAB +5/+10/+15.

Some builds will offset the offhand heavy weapon penalties by taking the Oversized Two Weapon fighting Feat. (It allows you to treat any one handed weapon as a “light” off hand weapon.)

Some Dwarf/Elf/Drow builds will use weapons that gain bonuses from Racial weapon enhancements.

In mod 9 most Strength based Tempest Ranger builds will have no penalties as Oversized TWF is the best prereq feat for Tempest III and you get to drop the remaining -2 penalty with the Tempest II and III enhancements.

[Drummerman121]

Yes it's the same in DDO.

Most people simply ignore them. They'll normally do it at low levels because they're idiots and they'll do it at high levels because Turbine gives some ridiculous bonuses to hit at BAB +5/+10/+15.

Some builds will offset the offhand heavy weapon penalties by taking the Oversized Two Weapon fighting Feat. (It allows you to treat any one handed weapon as a “light” off hand weapon.)

Some Dwarf/Elf/Drow builds will use weapons that gain bonuses from Racial weapon enhancements.

In mod 9 most Strength based Tempest Ranger builds will have no penalties as Oversized TWF is the best prereq feat for Tempest III and you get to drop the remaining -2 penalty with the Tempest II and III enhancements.

Again, really stupid nooby question, but what exactly is "Tempest"? I just made a Ranger/Rogue a few days ago (he's just gonna be splashed rogue to do traps). My main goal with him is to be a good fighter. What's the best way to go about this build as far as feats go?

[Trillea]

Again, really stupid nooby question, but what exactly is "Tempest"? I just made a Ranger/Rogue a few days ago (he's just gonna be splashed rogue to do traps). My main goal with him is to be a good fighter. What's the best way to go about this build as far as feats go?

Tempest is a prestige enhancement (PrE) that Rangers can take after their 6th ranger level if they have the feats Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. It increases your attack speed, gives you an AC boost, and is generally one of the more powerful prestige enhancements. When Mod 9 rolls around on the 6th of August it will be getting 2 more levels of the Prestige Enhancement that will be accessable at the 12th and 18th ranger level. Overall it is a very useful enhancement, and very popular.

[QuantumFX]

Again, really stupid nooby question, but what exactly is "Tempest"? I just made a Ranger/Rogue a few days ago (he's just gonna be splashed rogue to do traps). My main goal with him is to be a good fighter. What's the best way to go about this build as far as feats go?

DDO, currently, does not have Prestige Classes. The developers took a page from the D&D 4.0 ruleset and created enhancements that mimic the 4.0 prestige paths.

The TWF focused Prestige Enhancement for DDO rangers is Tempest.

Tier I requires 6 levels of Ranger, the Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack feats and costs 4 Action Points. It grants a +2 shield AC bonus while Two weapon fighting and a 10% reduction in the time it takes to complete an attack animation.

Tier II will be available in Mod 9/Eberron unlimited. It costs 2 additional Action points, and requires 12 levels of Ranger, the Tempest I and Ranger Dexterity II enhacements. It grants an additional +1 shield AC bonus (bringing the total to +3) while Two weapon Fighting and reduces the penalty to hit while Two weapon fighting by 1.

Tier III will be available in Mod 9/Eberron unlimited. It costs 2 additional Action points, and requires 18 levels of Ranger, the Tempest II enhancement and one of the following feats: Oversized TWF, Lightning Reflexes, Two Weapon Defense. It grants an additional +1 shield AC bonus (bringing the total to +4) while Two weapon Fighting and reduces the penalty to hit while Two weapon fighting by 1 (Reducing the penalty by a total of 2) and an additional attack at the end of the TWF attack animation.

Also, some quick notes on a rogue splash for a ranger. Take the rogue level at level 1 if you want to do traps/locks. Keep your Search, Disable Device and Use Magic Device skills maxed out. Keep your Spot and Open lock skills high. And if you have any points left over invest in Balance, Hide, Move Silently, Jump as you see fit. Investing exactly 1 point into tumble is also not a bad idea.

[EKKM]

Most TWF take the full TWF line - ie TWF, Imp TWF and Grt TWF.

The attack bonuses for DDO are so inflated that most players do not take oversized two weapon fighting even if using two non-light weapons as they are hitting on a 2 anyway (even with power attack or combat expertise on)

Builds that take it are normally 3/4 bab classes or those with other big negative to hit mods (like a Wf TWF with full power attack enhancements) that need or want the bonuses.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

What is this you speak of?

the '.5 str bonus' means that instead of your full str bonus being added to your offhands attacks, only half of it is.

e.g. you have a STR of 20 - so your damage bonus is +5. You will get +5 added to the damage of your main hand attacks, but only +2 added to the damage of your offhand attacks. Note that the damage number is always rounded down.

That is why it's often (more) worthwhile to make sure that your STR-10 is a multiple of 4.

Details on which attacks take place as you swing can be found here.

Note: monks using their unarmed flurry of blows attacks (i.e. when centered, using handwraps) do not suffer an offhand strength penalty.

Garth

[Kraldor]

That is why it's often (more) worthwhile to make sure that your STR-10 is a multiple of 4.

No point of saying something like that. Just make STR as high as you can. +1 damage to your mainhand and +0 damage to your off-hand is still a damage boost. Just worrying about it being an even modifier so it splits to both hands is silly.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

No point of saying something like that. Just make STR as high as you can. +1 damage to your mainhand and +0 damage to your off-hand is still a damage boost. Just worrying about it being an even number so it splits to both hands is silly.

That is why I put the (more) in there. It's worthwhile to get your STR as high as possible for the most damage, but speaking relatively about the worth of increasing your strength by 1 given a base strength, certain increases by 1 are worth more than others.

e.g. imagine your strength is 18 (+4 and +2 = 6 damage) and we're viewing a very simplistic view of twf where you get two attacks, one in your mainhand and one in your offhand.

Increasing it by 1 is not worth anything at all. (+4 and +2 = 6)
increasing it by 2 is worth 1 more base damage (+5 and +2 = 7)
increasing it by 3 is worth 1 more base damage (+5 and +2 = 7)
increasing it by 4 is worth 3 more base damage. (+6 and +3 = 9)

Thus that last increase of 1 is worth relatively more than the first increase of 1. This might e.g. affect the relative value of a +3 str tome, or spending those extra action points to get yourself a multiple of 4 rather than spending them elsewhere.

Garth

[Drummerman121]

Tempest is a prestige enhancement (PrE) that Rangers can take after their 6th ranger level if they have the feats Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. It increases your attack speed, gives you an AC boost, and is generally one of the more powerful prestige enhancements. When Mod 9 rolls around on the 6th of August it will be getting 2 more levels of the Prestige Enhancement that will be accessable at the 12th and 18th ranger level. Overall it is a very useful enhancement, and very popular.

DDO, currently, does not have Prestige Classes. The developers took a page from the D&D 4.0 ruleset and created enhancements that mimic the 4.0 prestige paths.

The TWF focused Prestige Enhancement for DDO rangers is Tempest.

Tier I requires 6 levels of Ranger, the Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack feats and costs 4 Action Points. It grants a +2 shield AC bonus while Two weapon fighting and a 10% reduction in the time it takes to complete an attack animation.

Tier II will be available in Mod 9/Eberron unlimited. It costs 2 additional Action points, and requires 12 levels of Ranger, the Tempest I and Ranger Dexterity II enhacements. It grants an additional +1 shield AC bonus (bringing the total to +3) while Two weapon Fighting and reduces the penalty to hit while Two weapon fighting by 1.

Tier III will be available in Mod 9/Eberron unlimited. It costs 2 additional Action points, and requires 18 levels of Ranger, the Tempest II enhancement and one of the following feats: Oversized TWF, Lightning Reflexes, Two Weapon Defense. It grants an additional +1 shield AC bonus (bringing the total to +4) while Two weapon Fighting and reduces the penalty to hit while Two weapon fighting by 1 (Reducing the penalty by a total of 2) and an additional attack at the end of the TWF attack animation.

Also, some quick notes on a rogue splash for a ranger. Take the rogue level at level 1 if you want to do traps/locks. Keep your Search, Disable Device and Use Magic Device skills maxed out. Keep your Spot and Open lock skills high. And if you have any points left over invest in Balance, Hide, Move Silently, Jump as you see fit. Investing exactly 1 point into tumble is also not a bad idea.

Interesting. Sound like something I want to do. Anyone have a leveling layout of a Tempest Ranger like this?

[Carpone]

They'll normally do it at low levels because they're idiots and they'll do it at high levels because Turbine gives some ridiculous bonuses to hit at BAB +5/+10/+15.

<necro thread>

At what BAB/combo of feats is it optimal for a Human Tempest Ranger to replace a light offhand weapon with a Khopesh? Progression is Rogue 1->Ranger 11-> Monk 1->Ranger 18 with these feats:

1-Dodge
1-(HB)Mobility
3-Khopesh
6-Spring Attack
9-IC Slashing
12-Toughness
13-(MB)Combat Expertise
15-Power Attack
18-OTWF

From a purely anecdotal point of view, it feels like I miss alot more with dual Khopesh than Khopesh+light weapon currently at 1 Rogue/3 Ranger.

[Crann]

<necro thread>

At what BAB/combo of feats is it optimal for a Human Tempest Ranger to replace a light offhand weapon with a Khopesh? Progression is Rogue 1->Ranger 11-> Monk 1->Ranger 18 with these feats:

1-Dodge
1-(HB)Mobility
3-Khopesh
6-Spring Attack
9-IC Slashing
12-Toughness
13-(MB)Combat Expertise
15-Power Attack
18-OTWF

From a purely anecdotal point of view, it feels like I miss alot more with dual Khopesh than Khopesh+light weapon currently at 1 Rogue/3 Ranger.

Forget about dual wielding khopeshes for now. I just hit 10 with this build, an am only now consistently hitting with dual kopeshes. Get a shortsword for off hand for now. Do the Sharne's syndicate line for the nicked longsword/shortsword combo, it will do well for you until you get your BAB high enough for the dual Khopeshes, plus the parry bonus from the longsword is nice for your already low AC. It's a great pair of weapons if your toon isn't twinked, or there isn't a large number of nice Khopesh's floating around your AH/Brokers for cheap.

[Junts]

What is this you speak of?



Well what's the most common thing that TWFers do?

offhand attacks only get .5 your str bonus to damage, not your full strength. EG, with 30 str you have +10 to damage on main hand and +5 on offhand due to strength

Most people ignore hte penalties entirely, even the oversized penalty of -4/-4, as its possible to buff enough that the penalty is inconsequential on the first swing, and our later swings -increase- in bab instead of decreasing (which is what makes to hit penalties so painful in pen and paper).

[Junts]

No point of saying something like that. Just make STR as high as you can. +1 damage to your mainhand and +0 damage to your off-hand is still a damage boost. Just worrying about it being an even modifier so it splits to both hands is silly.

More importantly, those str modifiers are just what make up for the -4 penalty, so they are important even when they don't benefit your offhand.

[brian14]

Does Dexterity have any effect on two-weapon fighting?

[Eugel]

Other than being a prerequisite for two-weapon-fighting feats for everyone but rangers, DEX has no effect (on TWF).