Stalwart DPS

[TheBlueFox]

Im making a human stalwart defender. My starting stats are

16 str
14 dex
14 con
14 int
10 wis
10 cha

Intimitank, I've chosen the 14 int for combat expertise mostly, but I see that combat expertise is a prereq for Whirlwind attack. So this got me thinking. How am I going to tower shield block, Intimidate, and DPS.

well...Intimidate brings enemies toward me, Whirlwind attack attacks all enemies around me, Cleave and great cleave are like miniature whirlwinds. Best yet, you can hold a shield, use Cleave, and you KEEP your shield AC and DR while spinning.

Would a Cleave, GreatCleave, Whirlwind attack Stalwart defender be better than one that focuses on stuff like improved trip or stunning blow?

I get so many feats that I've no idea what to do with them. If not cleaves and whirlwind, then what, I dont have the dex for TWF

[AylinIsAwesome]

Not sure Whirlwind attack will be a good choice since it also requires Spring Attack...which requires Mobility...which requires Dodge. You may take Dodge anyway, but I kind of doubt it on Mobility and Spring Attack (though I've only just started my first "tank" so I may have no idea what I'm talking about here, hehe) so that really costs you 3-4 extra feats. Cleave and Great Cleave are much easier to take and have seperate cool-down timers (and how often are you going to be completely surrounded on all sides?) which would give you some more feats to do stuff with. Sheild Mastery/Improved Sheild Mastery, THF/ITHF/GTHF (or TWF/ITWF/GTWF), improved tactics Khopesh prof all compete for those slots.

So...Cleave and Great Cleave? Maybe. Whirlwind Attack? Too expensive. In my opinion that is.

[Asketes]

This is my Stalwart Build:

http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/demiknight/

yeah yeah my.ddo doesn't like to update.. my build is wearing some goofy stuff, nothing like DPS'ing a portal w/ a Rod of Teleport

He weilds two Min II khopesh (in process of saving for Light II as well)

Will be TR'd to ranger for the self-buffable barskin then back to fighter

Starting Stats:
STR: 16
DEX: 15
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 8
CHA: 12

Potential END Stats:
STR: 38
16(base) +2(fighter) +5(ability) +6(item) +4(tome) + 1(Human Adaptability) + 2(Exceptional) + 2(Rage)
STR: 42
+4(Defender Stance)
DEX: 22
15(base) +2(tome) +5(item)
CON: 28
14(base) +4(tome) +6(item) +1 (exceptional defender set) +1(human adaptability) +2(exceptional ring)
CON: 32
+4(Defender Stance)
INT: 13
12(base) +1(tome)
WIS: 8
CHA: 22
12(base) +4(tome) +6(item)

I will post more detailed info later.. sorry tired

I normally tend to keep up in DPS pretty well, as I stay in TWF mode almost exclusively.

I tank VOD in TWF and with a raid buffed DPS AC of roughly 74AC

If it comes down to it i can hit my leviks shield up and bump up considerably...

[TheBlueFox]

The thing is, I PREFER to be sword and board. I know that means less dps, but increased survivability. Im not just tanking, Im tanking elite quests at a higher level with guildies. So its less for use with pugs, and more for that tasty challenge. I still need the DPS to sustain some hate though, so I think Shield blocking with a cleave/great cleave/whirlwind will do me well.

Now, based on my stats, would it be better to TRY and fit TWF into my build? I do prefer TW vs TH

[MrWizard]

Here is my build, super high ac, high intim, good saves, and built to also go dps via one swing or full range of two weapon fighting.....

long post, but might give you ideas.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=216140

[MrWizard]

The thing is, I PREFER to be sword and board. I know that means less dps, but increased survivability. Im not just tanking, Im tanking elite quests at a higher level with guildies. So its less for use with pugs, and more for that tasty challenge. I still need the DPS to sustain some hate though, so I think Shield blocking with a cleave/great cleave/whirlwind will do me well.

Now, based on my stats, would it be better to TRY and fit TWF into my build? I do prefer TW vs TH

DPS is a funny thing.

By using intim in a quest it allows the other DPS people to do great damage at no cost to the cleric.

Since you are taking little damage as a tank, it really does not matter how long it takes to beat the mob down.

DPS cannot be done by dead people. Your toon will do more DPS over time as you will not die.

Intim will bring it ALL to you and speed up the quest allowing for the party to just pick one by one and destroy them, while you beat on them too.

Intim will face things away from group so DPS can use things like power attack while gaining a +4 to attack from behind.

Properly played, your intim tank should help the DPS situation, not lower it.. And the resources spent by your cleric will be lowered quite significantly.

[Magada]

suggestion... drop the intel down to 12 that will free up 2 more points.You eat a plus 1 intel tome at level 3 that will get you your 13 that is needed.2nd make a wf the more i play this game ac will only get you so far damage reduction is where its at.Have alot of feats? dont waste them on trying to make your damage better you are a defender for gods sake u defend.I have 46 blocking dr and mid 70's low 80 ac t level 20 on wall.I can intim sulo with a roll of 1 on elite i can intim the dq on elite while the caster blast here as i spam intim she doesnt do much when u have 46 blocking dr.That dr was reached from shield mastery improved shield mastery warforged dr enhancements and dr feats ( i took 2).Oh btw he duel weilds khopesh and has two weapon fighting improved two weapon fighting and greater two weapon fighting.Really fun build to play just keep in mind you are a defender concentrate on how u can improve yourself in that area ac is great dr is where its at!!!!

[vyvy3369]

In regards to your original suggestion, I'd recommend Cleave over Whirlwind. You should be taking Power Attack anyways, and you only really need one such Feat so that you can continue attacking after using Intimidate (there's a delay after Intimidate where you can't attack, but you can use Cleave/GC/WW during that time).

I've been playing a pure Fighter pretty much since the start, and going purely S&B is a mistake that you will regret. I didn't have the dex to pick up TWF until TR came around, and the only thing stopping me from rerolling was losing all of his gear. Anyways, having the ability to switch between DPS and defense is inredibly useful, and if at all possible, definitely fit it in.

As others mentioned, you can still get a good enough AC even in full DPS mode. You may find yourself using a shield a lot while leveling up and doing those elite quests above your level, but if you don't have the option to DPS at end game, you're going to find yourself disappointed. Quite often I find mine in the low 80s in raids while TWF w/ Power Attack on. The nice part is that you have several small increases in AC that you can make if you find that you're taking too much melee damage. I've taken to the following steps if that happens:

1. Start off TWF w/ PA
2. If taking too much melee damage, turn CE on (+5 AC with a small decrease in DPS)
3. If taking too much melee damage still, switch to a shield (+5 AC with a significant decrease in DPS - TS w/ ritual is +10 AC, shield wand w/ TWF Defense is +5, and I TWF enough that it was worth the Feat)
4. If taking too much melee damage still, block (+6 AC and no longer doing any meaningful DPS)

Edit:

....Really fun build to play just keep in mind you are a defender concentrate on how u can improve yourself in that area ac is great dr is where its at!!!!

There are only a few places at end game where DR makes much of a difference. Almost everything can be tanked by having a high enough AC instead, with a few notable exceptions. Sally doesn't curse you unless she hits you, so there's not much point in blocking unless your AC isn't good enough. Horoth's damage mostly comes from his DoTs, which blocking doesn't do much to help against. Epic DQ, definitely block - between the knockdowns and how much damage is reduced, yeah that one is worth blocking for. Epic Velah...yeah, I don't see how blocking helps much at all there.

[krud]

Im making a human stalwart defender. My starting stats are

16 str
14 dex
14 con
14 int
10 wis
10 cha

Intimitank, I've chosen the 14 int for combat expertise mostly, but I see that combat expertise is a prereq for Whirlwind attack. So this got me thinking. How am I going to tower shield block, Intimidate, and DPS.

well...Intimidate brings enemies toward me, Whirlwind attack attacks all enemies around me, Cleave and great cleave are like miniature whirlwinds. Best yet, you can hold a shield, use Cleave, and you KEEP your shield AC and DR while spinning.

Would a Cleave, GreatCleave, Whirlwind attack Stalwart defender be better than one that focuses on stuff like improved trip or stunning blow?

I get so many feats that I've no idea what to do with them. If not cleaves and whirlwind, then what, I dont have the dex for TWF

drop int to 12, raise dex to 15, and that puts you within reach of CE and TWF with a +1 int tome and +2 dex tome.

I tried that strategy on an intimitank. Just know that it is a slow dps process. It is best used in a pinch when you're forced to turtle up and thin out a crowd. You can use effects swords such as paralyzers, disruptors, banishers, and vorpals to good effect in those instances. Also works when soloing whenever you draw too big of a crowd.

Beyond GH and the vale that strategy doesn't work so well. The problem is that mob hp keep going up, and you also need to keep your AC up. Keeping your AC up will usually require +4 AC on your shroud weapon (unless you can get lucky with your DT armor), which means you won't be using those effect weapons anymore. In addition many of those effect weapons lose their effectiveness at higher levels.

At higher levels it is usually all about DPS, which cleave/GC do not provide. If you run with any kind of fast paced groups, you'll find yourself left in the dust if you keep trying that strategy. I found I was better off swinging away with twf or thf when I wanted dps, and reserving intim/blocking for whenever that was necessary. Dps while intim/blocking just won't happen at higher levels.

here's my TR intimitank. He's set up to achieve epic intimidate scores, but still dish out decent dps with twf khopesh. It works out real nicely with drow too.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.14
DDO Character Planner Home Page
NeatoHombrTR 
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 2 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 354
Spell Points: 10 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 22
Reflex: 19
Will: 17
                Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    26
Dexterity            15                    18
Constitution         14                    17
Intelligence         12                    14
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             14                    18
Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
 
                Starting          Feat/Enhancement
               Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    22
Bluff                 2                     4
Concentration         3                     4
Diplomacy             2                     4
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     4
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  2                     4
Intimidate            2                    42
Jump                  7                    13
Listen                1                     1
Move Silently         2                     4
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     2
Search                1                     2
Spot                  1                     1
Swim                  5                    10
Tumble                6                    14
Use Magic Device      6                    27
 
Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded
Feat: (Human Bonus) Force of Personality
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
 
Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
 
Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
 
Level 4 (Paladin)
 
Level 5 (Paladin)
 
Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
 
Level 7 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
 
Level 8 (Fighter)
 
Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
 
Level 10 (Rogue)
 
Level 11 (Fighter)
 
Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
 
Level 13 (Fighter)
 
Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
 
Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Intimidate
 
Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
 
Level 17 (Fighter)
 
Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Sentinel
 
Level 19 (Paladin)
 
Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate II
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate III
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I

[Valezra]

Im making a human stalwart defender. My starting stats are

16 str
14 dex
14 con
14 int
10 wis
10 cha

Intimitank, I've chosen the 14 int for combat expertise mostly, but I see that combat expertise is a prereq for Whirlwind attack. So this got me thinking. How am I going to tower shield block, Intimidate, and DPS.

well...Intimidate brings enemies toward me, Whirlwind attack attacks all enemies around me, Cleave and great cleave are like miniature whirlwinds. Best yet, you can hold a shield, use Cleave, and you KEEP your shield AC and DR while spinning.

Would a Cleave, GreatCleave, Whirlwind attack Stalwart defender be better than one that focuses on stuff like improved trip or stunning blow?

I get so many feats that I've no idea what to do with them. If not cleaves and whirlwind, then what, I dont have the dex for TWF

Stats would be better served as:

16 str
15 dex
14 con
11 int
8 wis
13 cha

This gives you some extra Cha for intimidate. 15 Dex with a +2 tome allows for all the TWF feats and better AC. 11 int +2 tome should allow you to get combat expertise.

whirlwind, cleave, and Great cleave are terrible for tanking. For quests just stay in TWF mode and spam intim while killing things. When S&B tanking raids you'll prob be hate tanking in lieu of intimidating.
Val

[TheBlueFox]

Hmm, interesting. Well Im going to get whirlwind and SEE how it works for myself. I've taken all your input into consideration, because chances are Im going to scrap this character as a test. Still, Im going to play it my experimental way, until I VISIBLY see a drastic unplayability. This way I get some experience with the unknown. When I try again, Ill make some tweaks

[vVAnjilaVv]

I would have to say by end game, and I mean pretty much any raid on elite and epic quests, not to mention all the Shavarath and Refuge quests on elite......u are far better off specilizing in what ur doing. I think a defender is far better off focusing on being able to defend rather than adding in dps and possibly comprimising the main function of thier build. I really think if u want to be able to go into DPS mode, just either bump up ur dex a little and got GTWF, or leave ur stats how they are and go GTHF, and of course take PA for when u don't plan to turtle up. Really tho, having a lower attack roll even with a full BaB on higher settings means ur probably going to miss a lot. A defender is not so concerned with dps as they are outsurvivng thier opponent and giving the rest of the party more safety.

Even with cleave, GC and Whirlwind....with CE and a tower shield equipped and a build much more focused on defending than hitting, on higher difficulties I think ur going to miss a lot anyways. I think ur feats would be much better used going towards AC, saves and HP's.

All that being said...it's ur build, and if u enjoy it, do it how u want.

It's just very expensive to respec these days.

[tc12]

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]......u are far better off specilizing in what ur doing. I think a defender is far better off focusing on being able to defend rather than adding in dps and possibly comprimising the main function of thier build.
...
Really tho, having a lower attack roll even with a full BaB on higher settings means ur probably going to miss a lot.

I'm not understanding this statement. Fighter have plenty of feats, no reason not to do both. When lesser +3s finally hit the store, my Dwarf will be 16 15 16 11 8 11 (very close to what Valezra recommends, just accounting for racial differences). He'll have the 2WF feat chain and PA for DPS mode (swap Tharnes, Bloodstone, Madstone boots for intimitank gear), and while not as nice as Kensai Power Surge can still stance in DPS mode for the +4 STR/CON. With Dw Axe enhancements and greater weapon focus I'm not seeing why I'd miss much.

Hmm, interesting. Well Im going to get whirlwind and SEE how it works for myself. I've taken all your input into consideration, because chances are Im going to scrap this character as a test. Still, Im going to play it my experimental way, until I VISIBLY see a drastic unplayability. This way I get some experience with the unknown. When I try again, Ill make some tweaks

If you level this and see it's just off a little bit, seems a lesser reincarnate could fix easily enough... Good luck.

TC