Velkro: Human Sorcerer

[greybucket]

Thank you for posting the enhancements!

[cyadra]

A nice build, fairly simple but good.

My only change would be on a 32 pt build drop the con to 16 and pump the str to 14. The 10 int really isnt needed since all you really need are UMD and concentration. To make life easier get yourself a nice axe (carnifex or malestrom if you can) or just a good great axe. Take the blessing spell at level one to allow you to use it at lower levels and swing and charm away. Then by the time you get haste you can drop the axe for +power clubs. You would be surprised at low levels just how easy it is to melee on norm and hard.

[greybucket]

@cyadra - I see your point with getting STR up to 14 and using a great axe for lower levels, but what happens when you're not lower level anymore? I don't see 14 in STR coming in handy for anything then. Take no offense, I just don't see the point. Getting a group for any quest isn't as hard as I once thought and can level you much faster than swinging an axe if done properly.

[tinyelvis]

Grey, you don't need strength. If you want to get strength go ahead, its your toon. However, you can easily run with a 6 starting strength without any problems ( I start hafling casters all the time like that). A bull strength scroll will get you 3 minutes of +4 strength if you need. You don't ever need to melee as a sorcerer. If you like melee, you can do it. However, if built and run correctly, sorcerers are the toughest characters at low levels and easiest to level, and never ever need touch a melee weapon in anger if they dont want.

Folks who melee as sorcs probably dont cast spells effectively so feel the need to melee. Further, melee takes longer to kill things, so people who melee with their sorcs get hit more by the bad guys and often have bad things like enfeeble happen more often, so they may like high strength and high constitution. It fits well with their play style.

IF your sorcerers play style involves not getting hit and quickly killing your foes with spells then you may find you don't need a lot of constitution or strength, it doesn't matter what race you are.

[cyadra]

The 14 str still comes in handy once you get past the low levels, again, to help you carry your gear, and when the ray of enfeeble hits you and saps your str. Or if you fail your saves against poison, which will happen at the upper levels. Those two extra points into CON (18 vs. 16) isn't going to make the difference between life and death most of the time. From levels 1-4 I used an axe pretty well, and killed things just fine without any problems. After level 4, yeah the melee was replaced by spells, but I didn't need the extra hit points. Also, don't give up on the CC ability of the sorc. Lots of people (myself included) go into quests and nuke..nuke..nuke. Starting out you could do just fine charming anything you can, and zerging through a quest.

Also, maybe its me and my eyes are getting old but on the spell list do you have the level 2 energy resist spell slotted and the level 5 energy resist spell slotted? Just wondering if I am seeing things. Because that is a HUGE spell that is a MUST.

[Goldeneye]

My only change would be on a 32 pt build drop the con to 16 and pump the str to 14. The 10 int really isnt needed since all you really need are UMD and concentration. ... Take the blessing spell at level one to allow you to use it at lower levels and swing and charm away. ...You would be surprised at low levels just how easy it is to melee on norm and hard.

I would strongly, strongly advise against this. Starting with 14 con, only helps you get past level 1, and 2.

It is 10x easier to just put up an lfm, and get a fighter along for Korthos. Once a sorc reaches level 3, their Niac's Cold ray is powerful enough that they have no problem solo-ing.

Another aspect of melee, is that you take much more damage. At low levels, with low UMD you are going to have a very hard time healing yourself if you are in toe-to-toe combat.

14 STR is to much. Later levels, you will have STR items and tomes to up your strenght. I can see taking 10STR just to help you with encumbrance, but 14 is a waste of base stat points.

The 14 str still comes in handy once you get past the low levels, again, to help you carry your gear, and when the ray of enfeeble hits you and saps your str. Or if you fail your saves against poison, which will happen at the upper levels. Those two extra points into CON (18 vs. 16) isn't going to make the difference between life and death most of the time. From levels 1-4 I used an axe pretty well, and killed things just fine without any problems. After level 4, yeah the melee was replaced by spells, but I didn't need the extra hit points. Also, don't give up on the CC ability of the sorc. Lots of people (myself included) go into quests and nuke..nuke..nuke. Starting out you could do just fine charming anything you can, and zerging through a quest.

Please don't nerf your mid/end-game stats just to make level 1-4 easier. Levels 1-4 takes a day at most. Put up lfm, get a party, and you will have no problem.

Also, maybe its me and my eyes are getting old but on the spell list do you have the level 2 energy resist spell slotted and the level 5 energy resist spell slotted? Just wondering if I am seeing things. Because that is a HUGE spell that is a MUST.

The level 2 spell is Resist Energy
The level 5 spell is Protection from Elements

Resist, and Protection are different.

[tinyelvis]

As a sorcerer you can certainly get away without any strength buff. Plus no class is easier to level through cap (its especially easy levels 1 - 10 using your uber spells and starting items).

However, after pointing this out, I must remark that over the years I have seen all popular sorcerer builds derive from end game conditions. Currently, in epic play (essentially post 20th level play) the sorcerer is severely limited offensively. This time next year if things continue on this trend (and it seems that is the case), I foresee the sorcerer hybrid melee as the only viable offensive sorcerer build. True, it will weaken the class levels 1 - 20 normal quest play ability, but in epic play it will be only offensive option.

So, be careful about calling the high strength sorcerer gimp, because you just might have today's gimp as your toon for tomorrow.

[Goldeneye]

In EPIC, Velkro is actually my favorite character to play.

The combination of High DC's for effective Mass Holds, and Otto's Irresistible Dance, makes the sorc super-effective. The difference between a good sorc, and a mediocre sorc makes a HUGE difference.

Yes, I take out my Dreamsplitter and neg-level monsters that are auto-crit... however even if I had 40 STR, my Melee damage would still suck.

If you think that your sorc could be more effective melee-ing, you are doing something horribly horribly wrong.

[tinyelvis]

In EPIC, Velkro is actually my favorite character to play.

The combination of High DC's for effective Mass Holds, and Otto's Irresistible Dance, makes the sorc super-effective. The difference between a good sorc, and a mediocre sorc makes a HUGE difference.

Yes, I take out my Dreamsplitter and neg-level monsters that are auto-crit... however even if I had 40 STR, my Melee damage would still suck.

If you think that your sorc could be more effective melee-ing, you are doing something horribly horribly wrong.

Golden, I helped teach sorc to use those spells when the Shavarath mod came out. At the time, I was one of the few (if not only) sorcs doing it. Now, everyone does it. Two years ago I started preaching High DC builds. Now, its almost main stream. Otto's and Mass Hold are great spells (heck, enchantments are why my running sorc is double enchantment focus) but they are not offensive spells. Without pulling out a melee weapon, you cannot kill things quickly as a sorc in epic play. And dont even get me started on the need for good saves. I see the beginnings of a movement toward melee on sorcerers gaining steam. Mark my words, this time next year, it will be main stream. Only this time, I wont be around to see it.

[Shade]

Not bad..

Ya need to swap out some of the silly stuff you got for level 1 tho. (ff lol, magic missle? yea not really doing anything interesting at 20, mastertouch on a 8 str build?)

Especially to get protection from evil. For a build with a dumpstat wis and dex, you could use the +2 saves. Not the mention the greater command other immunities.

lvl1 spells should be:
Nightshield (or shield), Protection From evil, Jump. IMO for an endgame sorc who runs hard content like raids or epic, these are pretty much must haves.
Leaves ya 1 spot for whatever ya like at the time. Think I had ray of enfeeblement. Previously a must have for raid boss debuffing ,but nerfed now so it doesnt work on purple named. Still a good red named debuff however.

[Goldeneye]

Ha ha, Are you trying to say that you came up with High-DC sorc builds, and that making a high-str melee sorc is a good idea?



The only significant contribution a sorc can make towards melee damage is neg leveling monsters with a Dreamspitter. Sure, splash 2 levels of pally into a wf sorc, and pretend you're making a difference.... but it's a minor difference.... it's something you do when you're bored.

... and there is nothing *new* about High-DC builds: people have been trying to get their DC's as high as possible since the days of Tempest Spine.

The only thing that has changed is:

1. Insta-kill spells, and additional spells like mass hold that make DPS-ing a high-level monster with traditional damage spells a complete waste of mana
2. Higher level cap = ability to take School Focus feats

However, this is a completely difference conversation, and belongs in a different thread that I would glady contribute to. Back to the thread topic: I wouldn't do 14 STR on a sorc - but feel free to gimp/make you're toon in whichever way you want.

[Goldeneye]

Good point shade.

1. Night shield,
2. Protection From evil,
3. Jump

are slightly more useful then FF, MM, Master's Touch.

Feather Fall I use so that random noobs don't fall down to the bottom of the Subterrain, Master's Touch I took because it's funny, and MM I just swapped out for Protection from Evil.

[Goldeneye]

For anyone still following this build:
[QUOTE=Goldeneye;3437043]Excellent. Finished up my Epic Ring of the Silver Concord tonight. For anyone interested, here is my current gear layout:

Current Gear Layout:

Excellent. Finished up my Epic Ring of the Silver Concord tonight. For anyone interested, here is my current gear layout:

Current Gear Layout:

Helmet: Minos Legens
Goggles: Concord Opposition: +10hp, +150sp, +5 Cha Skills. (link)
Armor: Dragontouched: Res+5, Healing 20%, Greater Spell Pen VIII
Bracers: Glacier
Boots: Delving
Gloves: Glacier
Ring: Epic Ring of the Silver Concord. Charisma+7, Command (+2 UMD), Crafted: Exceptional Charisma +1
Ring: Occult Slayer - Strength +6, Exceptional Con +1 Crafted: Exceptional Charisma +2
Belt: Occult Slayer - Constitution +6, Greater False Life
Cloak: Epic Cloak of Night: Invisibility Guard, Ghostly, Deathblock, Nightmare Guard, Dodge Bonus +2, DR 5/Good
Neck: Torin's Choker: Superior Potency VI
Trinket: Head of Good Fortune / Eardweller

Totals:

• 40 Standing Charisma, 44 w/ guild and yugo
• 40 DC Hold Mass Monster (w/ full buffs)
• 39 UMD (no cartouche!)
• 402 hp Standing. 482 w/ rage/yugo/ship
• Saves: 29/22/30 with ship buffs.

What I still need:

Torc of Prince-Raiyum-de II
Greensteel HP item.

Edit: Added Epic Cloak of Night

[Kirlian]

Hi could you break down for me your Enhancements 40 DC pls? It's not TR toon, you neither have wizard past life feat nor enhancement DC spell focus. I'm very curious. Also if you thinking about using Yugo pots you should include that in lowering your saves calculation. Significantly.

[Jaid314]

Hi could you break down for me your Enhancements 40 DC pls? It's not TR toon, you neither have wizard past life feat nor enhancement DC spell focus. I'm very curious. Also if you thinking about using Yugo pots you should include that in lowering your saves calculation. Significantly.

yeah, i'm trying to work this out myself.

for my sorcerer, i have 40 standing (42 with yugo) charisma, and my mass hold DC is 37 with a single spell focus feat. that's equivalent to 44 charisma. once i get my greater focus item it'll be 38. but that still leaves 2 points of DC that I can't figure out either.

[Kirlian]

hm... in that case +1 from bard song but its still not 40

[shagath]

for my sorcerer, i have 40 standing (42 with yugo) charisma, and my mass hold DC is 37 with a single spell focus feat. that's equivalent to 44 charisma. once i get my greater focus item it'll be 38. but that still leaves 2 points of DC that I can't figure out either.

Greater enchantment focus +1, wiz past life active +1 or perhaps he had that guild enchantment +1 buff. First things that came to my mind. He said 40dc with full buffs so +2 CHA and +1dc from guild ship.

[Jaid314]

Greater enchantment focus +1, wiz past life active +1 or perhaps he had that guild enchantment +1 buff. First things that came to my mind.

the guild enchantment buff doesn't stack, and his build has no enchantment focus feats in it.

[shagath]

the guild enchantment buff doesn't stack, and his build has no enchantment focus feats in it.

Heh, I somehow assumed plans changed on the way. They do quite often. For example LR for epics.

[Jaid314]

Heh, I somehow assumed plans changed on the way. They do quite often. For example LR for epics.

presumably that would be accompanied by an update of the build on the first post (which he indicates he's keeping up to date), but you never know i suppose.