Let's debate this 18 wiz 2 rog or 19 wiz 1 rog

[ddoer]

I can state empirically that evasion + insightful reflexes is not needed, in fact it's not even useful to a competent player. If it's useful to you, then theres a reason for that.

you could say evasion is not needed, you could argue 2 caster level+capstone is more useful than evasion, but saying evasion is not useful is plainly wrong. when you can barely survive with 300hp, it doesn't mean an additional 100hp is not "useful".

when you have more HP, you can survive when taking more damage. when you have high enough reflex save (and evasion), you'll take less damage that work essentially the same as getting more HP. both of them mean better survivability and give you more options in game playing. e.g. you could more aggressive rather than staying behind to avoid damage, you could use your mana to kill rather than to cast protection, you have better chance to survive when you hit by traps/spells etc.

how about trying epic DQ2. it is imho one of the few quests that has extreme reflex save/evasion requirement.

before I TR'd my second caster, I have a wiz20 and a sorc18/monk2. both of them are fleshy, have 30+ reflex save and can use heal scrolls with no failure, the wiz has 100 more hp, better dps and spell DC, better healing amp, but I always prefer to use the evasion sorc in DQ2. In DQ2, it's not hard to get hit by bb for a few times in a row (and at the same time get hit by archers and efreetis), each blade hit at around 80-100 damage. During I-am-war, when i need to keep my wiz alive reliably, I have to top her HP regularly because I know her HP could drop by 200-300 easily in any time (and my scroll healing may be interrupted), say, 1 failed save 100 + 3 saved bb 50x3 + some archer/efreeti damages. When I run my evasion caster, I'll heal only when I get lower than 1/3 hp or 100hp as I take damage and fail to use scroll only when i have very low roll.

for competent players, say, when using a low reflex save fleshy sorc, he probably can survive by putting more focus in dodging and self-healing, but in this case he'll contribute less dps.

and for many epic quests, spells like DBF, chain lightning, bb are not always deadly but often cause a lot damages. I am not saying every wiz should go for evasion as it involves some tradeoff, but any wiz should take insightful reflex to reduce those damages as the feat is not that costly.

[Kyln]

Funny how you link a thread and obviously haven't a clue what is said in it as you try to claim I haven't done high level content when I state I have in the other thread.

It's simple, you can't play for ****. If evasion + insightful has saved you uncountable times it's because you have put yourself in situations you shouldn't. You've gambled on not rolling 1s when you haven't had to, you've taken damage in situations where I would take none because I play intelligently. I've played through all the epics, I've soloed high level elites, I did 10 minute elite titan runs until my eyes bled to get the eardweller. I can state empirically that evasion + insightful reflexes is not needed, in fact it's not even useful to a competent player. If it's useful to you, then theres a reason for that.

Look, we all get your point. However, I have to say that you are overstating your case. As a total noob/newb wizard, I frequently scour the forums, and the proponents of evasion that you are calling incompetent are helpful and regular posters. I just see no reason why I or anyone else reading should think they are anything other than good players. Your play style doesn't require insightful reflexes or evasion, good for you. As a new player I am doing the 2 rogue splash. Why? Because even if what you say is true, until I can learn to recognize and dodge all necessary spells and the occasional trap I didn't know was there I would rather have a better chance at survival.

[Peeker]

Unless you're willing to change the race to WF and forget about trying to make a fleshie work for this, there's really no point in you wasting your time thinking about it.

..and to help you narrow your choices- tell me what end game content has anything where you'll get your moneys worth from the sacrificed lvls, and invested skill points to double as a trap monkey?

After gianthold, you'll find your trapskills sitting on the shelf.

[gwlech]

Unless you're willing to change the race to WF and forget about trying to make a fleshie work for this, there's really no point in you wasting your time thinking about it.

..and to help you narrow your choices- tell me what end game content has anything where you'll get your moneys worth from the sacrificed lvls, and invested skill points to double as a trap monkey?

After gianthold, you'll find your trapskills sitting on the shelf.

WF wiz 18/Rogue 2 Powerful combination with tons of synergy.

[PopeJual]

[quote=Peeker;2959102]..and to help you narrow your choices- tell me what end game content has anything where you'll get your moneys worth from the sacrificed lvls, and invested skill points to double as a trap monkey?
quote]

Amrath, Inspired Quarter and Monestary of the Scorpion.

...and honestly, where else are you going to put your skill points? After Concentration, Balance and a little Jump and Tumble, what is there?

[Phidius]

Unless you're willing to change the race to WF and forget about trying to make a fleshie work for this, there's really no point in you wasting your time thinking about it.

..and to help you narrow your choices- tell me what end game content has anything where you'll get your moneys worth from the sacrificed lvls, and invested skill points to double as a trap monkey?

After gianthold, you'll find your trapskills sitting on the shelf.

Trap skills are, in general, the icing on the cake. Who, pray tell, doesn't like icing on their cake?

Unless it's the abomination made from shortening - in that case, the entire cake is pretty well shot, and it's time to go to Baskin Robbins for an ice-cream version.