Let's debate this 18 wiz 2 rog or 19 wiz 1 rog

[Disavowed]

What's the better route on a drow wizzy. Is the second level of rouge worth it for the evasion? Is the last level of wizzy worth giving up evasion. Also since wizzies get plenty of feats compared to sorc we'll also say this wizzy will take the feat that changes your reflex saves from dex to int (sorry I'm kind of brain dead atm and can't remember the name of the feat and I'm too lazy to go look it up).

No right or wrong answer IMO just a nice debate.

[rest]

What's the better route on a drow wizzy. Is the second level of rouge worth it for the evasion? Is the last level of wizzy worth giving up evasion. Also since wizzies get plenty of feats compared to sorc we'll also say this wizzy will take the feat that changes your reflex saves from dex to int (sorry I'm kind of brain dead atm and can't remember the name of the feat and I'm too lazy to go look it up).

No right or wrong answer IMO just a nice debate.

Insightful Reflexes is the feat you're thinking of. I'd say the 2 rogue for evasion is worth it... but I have never leveled a wizard past 4, so I don't know of the tradeoffs for missing that extra wiz level.

[Phidius]

If you're not getting the wizard capstone, then you should get evasion. 19 wiz is a horrible place to stop, IMHO.

[quickgrif]

If you're not getting the wizard capstone, then you should get evasion. 19 wiz is a horrible place to stop, IMHO.

Agreed if you are going with that splash take two levels and get evasion to help you survive.

[byzantinebob]

Just as a question that I never see answered, why don't more people take 2 monk instead of 2 rogue? You still get Evasion, you get bonus feats for toughness or save increases and path of tortoise and stances (possibly) sound like an equally viable option. Are there really that many people who want to be a makeshift trapmonkey?

[Disavowed]

Just as a question that I never see answered, why don't more people take 2 monk instead of 2 rogue? You still get Evasion, you get bonus feats for toughness or save increases and path of tortoise and stances (possibly) sound like an equally viable option. Are there really that many people who want to be a makeshift trapmonkey?

The high int makes this a great trap monkey w/o having to put much into it.

[quickgrif]

Just as a question that I never see answered, why don't more people take 2 monk instead of 2 rogue? You still get Evasion, you get bonus feats for toughness or save increases and path of tortoise and stances (possibly) sound like an equally viable option. Are there really that many people who want to be a makeshift trapmonkey?

Problem there is you are only taking the splash for evasion and a feat or two where as with rogue you are getting so much more.

[CountHenri]

Just as a question that I never see answered, why don't more people take 2 monk instead of 2 rogue? You still get Evasion, you get bonus feats for toughness or save increases and path of tortoise and stances (possibly) sound like an equally viable option. Are there really that many people who want to be a makeshift trapmonkey?

Well Rogues are free, Monks you gotta pay for.

That aside Rogues give more skillpoints, allow you to DD & OL & UMD. Oh and backstab if you are remotely combat orientated...

For non-AC builds Rogue splash offers a lot more than Monk.

[dogpig00]

how about wiz 17 monk 2 rogue 1

[byzantinebob]

how about wiz 17 monk 2 rogue 1

Then you don't get Pale Master III

[Disavowed]

Problem there is you are only taking the splash for evasion and a feat or two where as with rogue you are getting so much more.

that's not the idea. The mainstay of the toon is a caster. Wizzies can change spells and get enough spells that they can sacrifice 1 or 2 level of wiz and do all the caster functions and they can fill the trapmonkey role as well. A wiz/rogue can usually get a higher disable & search than a straight rogue due to the high int. So the debate is should you take 2 rogue for evasion or is that sacrificing too much wizzy.

The other question is since this is a drow wizzy it's going to be a little shy on HP meaning even w/ evasion with a fail on an elite trap will probably still get you killed.

[gavagai]

how about wiz 17 monk 2 rogue 1

A 2monk/1rog splash works with cleric because of naturally high Wisdom and a needed boost to reflex saves. The AC/survivability offsets the loss of those three levels, especially since most clerics are already more prepared to rely on melee than Wizards. AND the cleric capstone isn't as hot as the Wiz cap.

The wiz has a poor wisdom and virtually no chance at a good AC. Melee is a joke without 20 Divine Power clickies. Insightful reflexes makes his reflex save great without further splashing.

I can't think of a third class that would benefit the Wiz more than another level of Wiz. Nothing else really synergizes with a high Int.

[ciep]

I agree with the others here: evasion is key, allowing you to handle certain challenges in a more straightforward way (such as Enter The Kobold, where the evading wizard shines in the final battle), and allowing party- and solo-friendly survivability. In addition to having traditional trap/open lock skills, the rogue splash allows for max ranks in UMD, which is a huge advantage over going monk.

Are there really that many people who want to be a makeshift trapmonkey?

I'd also just like to point out that Wiz/Rog builds are not makeshift trapmonkeys: they are exceptional trapmonkeys. Search and disable on a toon with full ranks and a 36-40 Intelligence is difficult to beat.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Evasion is the best feat in the game.

It is downright required to get many traps.

Those extra skill points will help you a lot. Despite the High Int, Wiz/Rogs are hurting for skill points.

Especially if you include Stealth which IMO should not be overlooked.

Then there is trying to fit in UMD which is very popular.

Rog2 is Win/Win IMO.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Just as a question that I never see answered, why don't more people take 2 monk instead of 2 rogue? You still get Evasion, you get bonus feats for toughness or save increases and path of tortoise and stances (possibly) sound like an equally viable option. Are there really that many people who want to be a makeshift trapmonkey?

There really are a large number of people that want to do traps....yes.

There is also a large number of people who feel they have to have UMD.

Even though a Wiz gains little from it IMO.

The Mnk splash is fine, but the synergy from the Wis/Rog is hard to ignore.

So many Rogue skills are Int based. Wizards have such a high Int that they have more skill points than they know what to do with.

it's just such an obvious choice.

But nothing wrong with the Mnk splash either.

[quickgrif]

that's not the idea. The mainstay of the toon is a caster. Wizzies can change spells and get enough spells that they can sacrifice 1 or 2 level of wiz and do all the caster functions and they can fill the trapmonkey role as well. A wiz/rogue can usually get a higher disable & search than a straight rogue due to the high int. So the debate is should you take 2 rogue for evasion or is that sacrificing too much wizzy.

The other question is since this is a drow wizzy it's going to be a little shy on HP meaning even w/ evasion with a fail on an elite trap will probably still get you killed.

Which was my point....

[Disavowed]

Which was my point....

I would have no need to go monk I'd just go pure wizzy. The only reason was to be trap monkey. The question is do you need the second level of rogue to be effective or just take the 19th level of wizzy. If I was trying to make an evasion wizzy then yes monk is fine. But I'm not looking to be an evasion wizzy I'm looking to be a trapsmith wizzy they are 2 different toons played entirely differant. If I go monk who cares if I have evasion to get to the trap I can't take it down because I don't have any rogue to tage it down.

We're talking about 2 entirely different things.

[quickgrif]

I would have no need to go monk I'd just go pure wizzy. The only reason was to be trap monkey. The question is do you need the second level of rogue to be effective or just take the 19th level of wizzy. If I was trying to make an evasion wizzy then yes monk is fine. But I'm not looking to be an evasion wizzy I'm looking to be a trapsmith wizzy they are 2 different toons played entirely differant. If I go monk who cares if I have evasion to get to the trap I can't take it down because I don't have any rogue to tage it down.

We're talking about 2 entirely different things.

Note the post I was replying to. I was replaying to him.

[ArichValtrahn]

If you are going Rogue splash for traps and/or UMD, that second level of Rogue really helps you keep those skills up at the necessary level.

[Disavowed]

If you are going Rogue splash for traps and/or UMD, that second level of Rogue really helps you keep those skills up at the necessary level.

Have the umd it's fine i can hit heal scrolls on a 4. It's really just for the evasion.