...Ranged Kensai?

[FuzzyDuck81]

Here's a build i put together a while ago - didnt get very far with it as i got distracted by a couple of other characters that i was having a lot of fun with.

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bow kensai
Level 20 Chaotic Good Elf Male
(18 Fighter \ 1 Ranger \ 1 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 294
Spell Points: 140 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 13
Will: 8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             17                    22
Dexterity            16                    20
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         11                    13
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precise Shot
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Rapid Shot


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Shadow
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Ranged Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Shadow
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Manyshot


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Ranged Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Precise Shot


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting

The wizard level is to qualify for Arcane Archer, and i figured that the ability to use a few buff wands plus self-cast shield could be useful, particularly at lower levels. The ranger level let me get bow strength from the start, plus access to a few other wands including cures. Dragonmarks are primarily for Displacement to aid in avoiding enemy missile attacks, or for increasing survivability on the occasions that melee is required.

I left out the enhancements as i havent gotten round to getting the latest version of the character creator to play with the requirements for Elven Arcane Archer in addition to Kensai, but i figured the kensai bonuses (increased damage, crit range & power surge for even more damage) would be good for increasing DPS output to a meaningful level (even if not at the level of a decently put together melee).

[Cyr]

i like the frenzied berserker version more then the kensai one cause 19-20/x6 >> 18-20/3

but its doable, yes

Feats are the issue with FB 3 archers. Assuming best make up 18 barb/1 ranger/ 1 arcane. 1 PA/ 2 Cleave (FB reqs), 3 rapid shot, 4 weapon focus : ranged, 5 point blank shot, 6 many shot, 7 ?. I would say 7 toughness. Anyways, this break down shows the main issue with a 18 FB archer. They can not get improved precise shot making their total DPS output in most cases fairly low. Also, they either have to choice between precise shot (so they can accurately ping their target) or alot more HP from toughness.

[Visty]

Feats are the issue with FB 3 archers. Assuming best make up 18 barb/1 ranger/ 1 arcane. 1 PA/ 2 Cleave (FB reqs), 3 rapid shot, 4 weapon focus : ranged, 5 point blank shot, 6 many shot, 7 ?. I would say 7 toughness. Anyways, this break down shows the main issue with a 18 FB archer. They can not get improved precise shot making their total DPS output in most cases fairly low. Also, they either have to choice between precise shot (so they can accurately ping their target) or alot more HP from toughness.

most important fights are single boss fights anyway, IPS is way overrated imo

[Cyr]

most important fights are single boss fights anyway, IPS is way overrated imo

Agreed most important fights are single boss fights, however, if you building an archer your dps is going to be inferior in single boss fights anyways by virtue of having that bow out.

[Ithrani]

Elf Kensai, with pure fighter levels will be able to access arcane archer enhancement line as well as have alot of DPS when compared to most other bow users. Kensai can get huge STR, bow strength is a feat so no reason to be a ranger at all. The fighter capstone is 10% more speed with ALL weapons, crit range increase works on bows, maybe better then expected, and the 30% haste boost from the fighter line means more speed on the shots as well, all contributing to more DPS. With the right build a pure fighter elf bowsai can out DPS a bow build ranger in those instances where it matters most, short fight end game raid bosses.

However, with that said, yeah Turbine really needs to increase the bows rate of attack to match the swings of melees. Until then, sadly bow DPS is not that effective overall, my bowbarian with crit rage loves seeing 4 crits with manyshot hit for over 150 base damage each, but once manyshot runs out, his DPS is pretty much junk.

[rimble]

Elf Kensai, with pure fighter levels will be able to access arcane archer enhancement line as well

No, they can't.

[Cyr]

No, they can't.

Let me elaborate on this so people can understand why. The AA PrE requires either mental toughness, a past life feat, or one of list of enhancements that you can only get if you are certain spell casting class. To get mental toughness or the past life feat you must have spell points to start with. This effectively requires that you have some class in your build that has spell points to access AA. And yes, this is a dumb design choice.

[gavagai]

And yes, this is a dumb design choice.

And it would be better to let a non-caster take arcane archer, and subsequently lack the SP to cast imbue arrow because... ?

[Cyr]

And it would be better to let a non-caster take arcane archer, and subsequently lack the SP to cast imbue arrow because... ?

Actually the better answer would be that all characters should have a base 0 SP pool. This pool gets additions normally from all things. That way mental toughness would grant some base SP and various items in game would grant more. This would be enough to use your imbue arrows.

Remember that it's not like everyone is running off to make an AA because they are so OP that this would break anything

[Visty]

Let me elaborate on this so people can understand why. The AA PrE requires either mental toughness, a past life feat, or one of list of enhancements that you can only get if you are certain spell casting class. To get mental toughness or the past life feat you must have spell points to start with. This effectively requires that you have some class in your build that has spell points to access AA. And yes, this is a dumb design choice.

not quite true, you can have a lvl20 fighter with the past life feat, tolero confirmed that

though you will have 0sp as the past life feat only gives a bonus to current sp just like items and gives nothing if you dont have any sp by yourself so you couldnt use any stance

but its possible to be a pure fighter AA

[Nuckin]

Have thought about this myself, liked the idea of the Kensaii AA but still believe that a pure ranger is better especially when the capstone is fixed (didnt even know it wasn't working but don't have a pure ranger yet) Rangers get all the ranged feats ur gonna want for free, plus give u all the twf fighting feats as well so if u build it right can be a decent melee.. or atleast have the feats to swap out to 2 vorpals when needed...

Why was frenzied berserker even mentioned? Besides the huge feat deficit.... the vicious doesn't work on ranged weapons.... just weird it was mentioned as an alternative....

[Cyr]

not quite true, you can have a lvl20 fighter with the past life feat, tolero confirmed that

though you will have 0sp as the past life feat only gives a bonus to current sp just like items and gives nothing if you dont have any sp by yourself so you couldnt use any stance

but its possible to be a pure fighter AA

Oh I was not aware that the feat was selectable. Thanks for the clarification... Not that anyone ever should do that with the non-existent SP pool for a pure fighter.

[Visty]

Why was frenzied berserker even mentioned? Besides the huge feat deficit.... the vicious doesn't work on ranged weapons.... just weird it was mentioned as an alternative....

+3 critmultiplier and massive str maybe?

[Nuckin]

the +3 crit multiplier is nice but not compared to the benefits u would gain from the feats lost by going barb, along with everything else...

Rangers get a nice list of self buffs and can self heal really well... They also get the twf feats for free.... allowing them to fulfill more roles then a FB could.... and the str difference between a barb AA and a ranger/fighter wouldn't be big enuf to sway it in favor of the FB at all... I Would say the Kensaii bow dmg along with the +1 threat range out weighs the FB by far and u get far more feats... Pretty much Rangers/Fighters will make the best AA's although I have seen a decent AA bard build before

[Ithrani]

Let me elaborate on this so people can understand why. The AA PrE requires either mental toughness, a past life feat, or one of list of enhancements that you can only get if you are certain spell casting class. To get mental toughness or the past life feat you must have spell points to start with. This effectively requires that you have some class in your build that has spell points to access AA. And yes, this is a dumb design choice.

Well........ I am wrong, someone pointed out the past life feat in another post, but I was not considering that. I had thought one could take mental toughness with no spell points. However I disagree that it is a dumb design choice, Arcane Archers are required in PnP to have spell casting abilities, effectively, needing spell points. The dumb design choice and I am sure there are 0 people out that who can honestly disagree is ranged combat; it is severely broken and under powered, it can be useful, it can be effective, but it will not compare to melee TWF or THF until it is fixed.

And for those people who think DDO is the end all be all to rules and balance, an Arcane Archer in a PnP group with rapid shot can do as much Damage in a single round as a TWF or THF. If you think that TWF and THF should always do more damage then an ranger specced ranger, fighter or arcane archer you have never fully explored the possibilities with the core 3.5 system. It is a matter of attacks per round, archers can get 1 extra attack per round with rapid shot meaning 1 more attack than all melee classes except for monks, also when moving melees get 1 attack, with manyshot you can get up to 4 shots, that's 3 more then the melee, despite only 1 chance to critical. But because in DDO the speed of the animation effects the number of attacks one gets in 5-6 seconds, archers always are beat out of the number of attacks they should get. The most simple fix is to speed up the animation to be equal too melee swings and faster the melee swings when one has rapid shot. But my guess is that they would have to change the combat code for ranged combat, separate from the melee code and alter the ranged animation as well and we all know how great the Dev team is at getting right on top of those things. That would take time, that is rather spent making easter egg hunters and skating games.