why all the haterd for virtuoso?

[kartos]

well as i see it people go either spell singer or warchnater but never virtuoso and when people ask about being virtuoso every1 recommends not to so why is that?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

will as i see it people go either spell singer or warchnater but never virtuoso and when people ask about being virtuoso every1 recommends not to so why is that?

Well let's put it this way, what does virtuoso give you that's better that spellsinger or warchanter?

At low to mid level virt can more easily get music of the dead and music of the maker, that's about it. Neither of those really matter at all at high level.

SS gives you more SP and a higher DC, as well as a song to effectively mulitply other people's SP, all really handy at higher level.

WC gives you a better damage song plus a DR song, extremely handy at high level, especially in raids/against red/purple named.

[Bacab]

Lorien well put...a lot of times that this has been discussed (it has many many times) the arguement is "Virtuoso still gives a great song and BRDs are really nice to have around..."

That being said...Spellsinger is nice for manaburn parties like a few SOR/WIZ FvS/CLR that are questing due to the ability to lower spell costs.

Warchanter is amazing for melee DPS and one could make an arguement that Ironskin chant saves a healers SP more than the Spellsinger's Song...

Virtuoso gives you the fascinate dead song and a few other things..but not much else.

Sure a well-played Virtuoso will be great, but thats not because its a virtuoso...its because is a well played character.

An example would be a Ranger that refused to go tempest/arcane archer/deepwood sniper...they just not living up to what the COULD be doing. Virtuoso is kinda like that. It can contribute, but a Warchanter or SPellsinger in general can contribute more.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Ask not what your party can do for you: but what you can do for your party!




or, what they want you to do for them anyway.


CC is only appreciated when DPS and HP fail.

[kartos]

so u basically say that virtuoso doesn't give as much beneficial bonuses as the other two bard pre's now that is problamatic any1 know what the tier 2 and 3 pre's will be?

[Bacab]

well I like to live in a fantasy world were the second ore third tier of Warchanter gives Stoneskin Chant or Diamondskin Chant (15 Dr and yes...I just made that up)




and yes I misspelled "ore" for a reason...

[Tuney]

Its not exactly 'hate' for Virtuoso it is more... the 'general' populas sees the virt bonus as underwhelming when compaired to the other two. But I like to belive a bard's ability is more important then a bard's PrE. Plus I need all them extra songs for enthrallment!

[Anderei]

CC is only appreciated when DPS and HP fail.

unfortunally many players (PuGs) are not comfortable/used to with CC. When I go with a group with my Bard (in a non-undead quest), often enough the whole party goes ohhh and ahhh. Yes when I'm playing in the group, get used to it the whole dungeon dances Seems many player in the midteen-lvls have not seen propably used Ottos, Charms and Fascinates before.

(I agree however, in a shroud run, the warchanter is singly the best PrE, however come on, there is a whole game in here, not only the shroud (Altough I'm building a anoter toon right now, which build is explicitly focused to excell there)

[Ponza69]

From a Virt - I agree and disagree with different items in this thread. What it comes down to is not what type of bard character itself but who are the other 5 or 11 in your group or raid and how well do you know your character.

If they (your party members) do not know how to play with a CC. then there is no point - you are much better blowing things up or hacking them into little pieces. A well played CC bard knocks a few levels of CR off the top of a quest or group of mobs.

For my non-elitist playstyle (lets face it most of us are not elite-say what 90% or more of the ddo population) any bard rocks.

Personally I think the 3 are pretty equal. It is just that the benifits of the enthrall song are not as apparent to the general populous as a SS or WC bard. The prestige skill enthrallment is not something your party will see. Meaning they cant open their character sheet and say "ooo" and "ahh" look at my extra 1 to attack and DR benes. Or cast a spell on Max and Heighten and be dumbfounded by how little it costs.

It is more allong the lines of "I hit this guy 4 times and he died before the mezz wore off" or how the heck did you mezz the 20 skeles, 5 zombies, and a wraith. - If they are saying that then they probrably dont even know who did it.

As someone else said on the forums "it is situational" and what situation are you basing your judgement off of.

[Zenako]

Both the SPellsinger and WArchanter PrE focus on Boosting either your Character or the party characters, and that effect moves with the group and is easily seen. The strength of a Virtuoso is more in how they can affect the mobs, which are short lived and soon moved past. How well they got CC'd seldom matters to most groups, and in fact since the DC on Fascinate songs is often so high, any bonus a Virt gets is overkill, with mobs still saving 5% of the time.

The time taken to second song mobs is often wasted, since many might well be dead long before then.

The practical CC ability of a Spellsinger is not much worse (if at all) than a Virt, and they bring other boons to the party that all can see and readily benefit from and appreciate.

[Strakeln]

WC gives you a better damage song plus a DR song, extremely handy at high level, especially in raids/against red/purple named.

All good advice, but I want to point out that the warchanter isn't generally desired for his DR song, it's the extra damage that groups want. Most melees worth the axe they're holding will have 5 or more DR already, casters will have 10 (stoneskin).

[Xyfiel]

A pure Warchanter adds on average 2% more dps compared to a pure Virt if they have same specs. They also have dr 5 song, but lose song duration, extra songs, 1 feat, and the ability to enthrall. Enthralled mobs don't always break on first hit.

With extra songs and duration, you can give those borderline AC chars more AC. More AC = less healing, same as DR song.
Mobs that don't break quickly from enthrall are not hurting anyone = less healing

Even on raid bosses it isn't always what people make it out to be. 2% more dps saves literally seconds on a raid boss. Magic attacks bypass the DR. If you don't have aggro, DR means nothing. If you do have aggro but are getting mass healed, they are mass healing based on the chars who are lowest health, so you are probably getting healed fine without it. It really is a minor buff at high game. Many people only look at numbers though, and it gives numbers...

[Xeraphim]

What I don't understand is this:

Warchanter

Virtuoso

Spellsinger

Mind, I didn't grab these for the video content, merely the audio. The third has rather disturbing video(for my tastes).

(If you missed it, the underlying insinuation is that despite the variations, all 3 hold a significant level of entertainment and inspirational value, and therefore should be balanced to some extent in party buffs. I do like the extra durations from Virtuoso, but the Enthrallment uses a timer so is therefore worthless as compared to what it used to be, and the Virtuoso gains no significant effect to partywide enhancement over the song strength of the base plus enhancements, despite being significantly more individually talented than the other two. What's worse: Enthrallment debuffs DO NOT work on Raid Bosses).


Here's the point: Virtuoso is so very underloved despite the raw talent. It needs some Dev TLC.

[Tumarek]

The main advantige of the Virtuoso is his fascinate. It take a while to play and only really is neccessary if you are in way over youre head. Most of the time the basic tactics (have a DR Tank take the agro, charm one or more mobs so they attack each other or just simply kill them all with DPS output) are as effective and much faster.
The whole group has to wait for the bard to finish the song and then be carefull to just hit one mob at a time for it to be effective.

If you don't use fascinate there really isnt much reason going Virtuoso.

Now i do think Virtuosos are great chars but you have to know when to use them: Great for solo, sneak to a bunch of mobs, use fascinate (wont take you out of sneak) and charm.
I have heared they should be effective in Epic as well since even with an epic save it is hard to counter a DC of around 80 and more.

[RangerMaya]

Virtuoso I gets you this:
+2 to diplo, listen and perform
3 extra uses of bardic music per rest
Ability to extend songs by 10%
And enthrallment! Enthrallment, like fascinate is under-used because people are in such a big hurry to run around and smack everything at once or just drop a firewall. Enthrallment works like fascinate in that it stops the mobs from moving for a time. Only with enthrallment, once they get hit they have a -2 to will saves and attack rolls. That's pretty handy if you ask me.

You can also get music of makers and music of the dead (fascinate constructs & undead) but you don't have to be a virtuoso for that. Just have to have extra song IV.

The downside to that is that once you hit Amrath, most of the mobs can't be fascinated/enthralled at all.

It's one of those personal preference type things.

[Zenako]

You can also get music of makers and music of the dead (fascinate constructs & undead) but you don't have to be a virtuoso for that. Just have to have extra song IV.

The downside to that is that once you hit Amrath, most of the mobs can't be fascinated/enthralled at all.

It's one of those personal preference type things.

Exactly my Spellsinger has both of those songs as well. And seriously with 23 songs a rest (level 19), it even when dropping fascinates left and right, can be hard pressed to use them all up in many quests.

You last point is also very pertinent and goes to a point I made earlier. Spellsingers and Warchanters BUFF characters better than a Virtuoso, and those things always work (and sometimes better than any other buff due to be undispellable). Virtuoso's forte is affecting the mobs, and in many high end quests a LOT of the mobs are simply defined as IMMUNE and as such render the strength of the Virtuoso moot.

[Aerendil]

See the various posts elsewhere in this forum for Virtuoso's shortcomings, ways to improve the PrE, and the various bugs and issues with the PrE. We've complained for about 2 years now to no avail.

Hence, most Bards have given up on Virtuoso ever becoming fixed, and have switched to Spellsinger or Warchanter.

Simple as that, really.

[Hendrik]

Well let's put it this way, what does virtuoso give you that's better that spellsinger or warchanter?

At low to mid level virt can more easily get music of the dead and music of the maker, that's about it. Neither of those really matter at all at high level.

SS gives you more SP and a higher DC, as well as a song to effectively mulitply other people's SP, all really handy at higher level.

WC gives you a better damage song plus a DR song, extremely handy at high level, especially in raids/against red/purple named.

Unless you want to play Epic...

The only 'problem' with a Virt Bard is this;

For them to shine, it requires a few seconds of patience from 5 other people and teamwork/coordination - things you are hard pressed to find.

I love my Virt. I love my 8min+ Songs. Love walking into a room of MOBs, playing a lil tune, and then watch them all fall one by one with little to no resource expense or damage.

Not to mention Enthrall has a chance to break on damage and the effect stick after they are awoken.

[Anderei]

Maybe a respec my haggle/spellsinger to a virtuso for 3 days (since he does meet the feat requirements with negotiator already) and look how it feels like.

[Doomdark]

Hi - I've been playing this game since 2006 and have never really got the bard bug until recently. I have built a halfling Virtuoso (currently lvl 7) and she is FUN. I really wanted the chance to fascinate undead and it works fine

I have read the posts above and discovered a lot about bards (as well as other posts on bards). Of course I can see the advantages of Warchanters and Spellsingers over the Virtuoso build but that doesn't mean they are rubbish.

I don't go for soloing and am in an active guild. I highly recommend bards being guilded as many guilds are more than a bunch of rushing impatient individuals who want to only have maxed out characters in their party. For some of us, D&D is much more than focusing simply on stats. This isn't a first person shoot them up game with a grouping option.

My point? DDO is fun. So high level mobs are often immune to fascination, well it happens. The Virtuoso does add significant boosts to attack (ok not as much as the others but not so little as most posts would infer). Try things out, take your time, find like-minded ppl to ply with and ENJOY whatever build you make.

That said, if I do think that at higher levels the Virtuoso is limited, well I can always reset my enhancements and *start* all over again.

Have fun out there