Improving Humans

[Anderei]

[COLOR="Plum"]
Also of note... bonus feat and extra skill points are Base DnD ... nothing to do at all with enhancements. Items in game + the other racial enhancemnts overshadow those "Human racial enhancements" we currently have... There is no denying the a WF, Dwarf or Halfling melee will average higher DPS, Saves, AC then the human counterpart when put in practice they are more well rounded for those tasks in general. Humans shine in Bard, Pally and Sorc and lesser extent extreme skilled rogue ...

Also for rogue splashes (with the intend to be a trapmonkey) a human is a good pick. For clerics/fvs the extra +1 wisdom is also not that bad.

You're correct the things that speak for a human are the base rules, I doubt they offer any useful enhancements.

but there is no defining factor on a human which screams "THIS CLASS" human is great.

Isn't this the DnD idea of the human? Can do everything pretty well, but for nothing the core specialists race?

Edit: Above it reads "Human The most adaptable, flexible and ambitious of the Eberron races."

I don't see the ambitiousness reflected anywhere, would be a nice place for an improvement

[gavagai]

The Drow vs Humans thing boils down to a LOT of virtual feats (weaps and spell resistance and skill bonus') AND a rather significant ability point boost for any arcane caster, or wiz/rog multi... If Dex (rogue skills) and Int are important to you the Drow will end up with 4 ability points more than a 32 point Human, and no -1 to UMD (min 10 CHA).

The "significant" ability boost is +1 to a casting stat, in exchange for around -50HP (assuming each maxes CON and racial enhancements), less healing amp, less situational UMD (humans get up to +5 through their boost to skills -- great when rezzing on the fly).

The examples of a 28-point Drow rogue that that would have the "equivalant" of a 36+ point human build are limited to special builds that have above-average Dex and Int. Here's a Drow build that would have the equivalent of 40 build points on a human!
Str 10 (2 pts if human)
Dex 18 (16 points if human)
Con 12 (4 points if human)
Int 18 (16 points if human)
Wis 8
Cha 10 (2 points if human)
This is a crappy build, and shows that even 8 build points doesn't equal better utility if you can't put them where they matter. Most rogue builds probably would be better with humans, which offer more options to customize your build with more HPs, melee survivability, an extra feat, and the free skill point.

So there's no incentive to roll a human for a rogue/wizard... if you do it for theme or RP reasons you're actually taking a significant penalty (more power to you). You certainly don't need the Human's extra feat to take most every useful wiz class feat.

But you can't say with a straight face that +50hps (+73 if you take an extra Toughness with the "unneeded" human feat), +healing amp, and a skills boost is "no incentive" to take a -1 to Int, which often makes no difference to DCs.

If CON is important (and yeah they've made it very important I agree by making AC such a lofty target at high levels) then the Dwarf is surely a far superior choice than Human for anything melee... again he gets 4 or 5 "race feats" including the very tempting Dwarven war axe, which is worth a feat in and of itself for some people (greataxe like crit numbers and can dual wield or shield). For abilities the same 32 points gets you identical stats with a 18 CON and 8 CHA for a human or a 20 CON and 6 CHA for a Drawf...

Dwarves rule for AC tank builds, due to their ability to get the highest ACs in Heavy Armor.

But again, Dwarven Axe is a little worse than Kopesh. On equal builds, humans are 3 Con and 1 enhancement line behind dwarves. So humans are short at most 50 HPs, but have healing amp. 50 hps is significant, but not make-or-break for a fighter, and 4AP for Toughness IV isn't totally realistic. So no, dwarves don't make humans irrelevant; and neither do humans make Dwarf irrelevant.

tl;dr: There are plenty of reasons for humans because they are versastile. There are a few reasons for a Dwarf (max AC build, max HP build, tactical feats DCs build) because they are better at a narrower number of things.

So who's the versatile race again?

If your definition of "versatility" is "quantity of race-specific feats," then humans will lose. What you fail to see is that quality of human benefits leaves them at the top among most fleshie races for most classes and builds. Melee, caster, trapmonkey, healer, buffer, spellslinger -- each of these functions/roles/classes can be achieved amazingly with a human. The same can't be said of any other racial setup.

The only races that make humans seem shabby are Warforged and Halfling, which are so far ahead of the pack for melee DPS (power attack & sneak attack), survivability (immunities, saves boosts), and versatility (halfling companion and dragonmarks, WF plating, brute fighting, and other enhancements).

I could go on, Pure rogue or many multi's are better off as Drow or Halflings with healing dragonmarks.

I don't think you could make a good "pure" rogue with halfling dragonmarks. Those feats are too expensive. The multi's, maybe -- but then the extra skill point and feat are great for multi's between feat- and skill point- starved classes. Which are most classes.

[Emili]

Also for rogue splashes (with the intend to be a trapmonkey) a human is a good pick. For clerics/fvs the extra +1 wisdom is also not that bad.

You're correct the things that speak for a human are the base rules, I doubt they offer any useful enhancements.



Isn't this the DnD idea of the human? Can do everything pretty well, but for nothing the core specialists race?

This:

•+2 Dexterity, -2 Strength.
•Small: As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
•Halfling base land speed is 20 feet.
•+2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, Listen, and Move Silently checks.
•+1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
•+2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear: This bonus stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general.
•+1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
•Automatic Languages: Common and Halfling. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc.
•Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass halfling’s rogue class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

vs this:

•Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
•Human base land speed is 30 feet.
•1 extra feat at 1st level.
•4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
•Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
•Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.

By base rule are you suggesting the by basis of +1 ac, equal attack but smaller weapons, +1 saves, Climbs, Jumps, Listens, and Move Silently checks... vs an extra feat and 23 extra skill points... and this constitutes one is a rogue specialist? or even adjusts to a fighter specialist?

Is no doubt one has 5% ac and saves but is lacking in Damage output compared to the other... quite frankly what would happen if the extra feat on the second were put in dodge, lightning reflexes, evening the characters up or possibly the other way power attack...? Base game have not specialized race/class - fact that one racial tends prefered there is not an extreme specialization in core DnD. Not all halflings are rogues nor are the all fighters yet the other races serve just as well in those classes should you examine the traits and see the trade offs.

[Emili]

But you can't say with a straight face that +50hps (+73 if you take an extra Toughness with the "unneeded" human feat), +healing amp, and a skills boost is "no incentive" to take a -1 to Int, which often makes no difference to DCs.

Str 10 (2 pts if human)
Dex 18 (16 points if human) +1 mod drow
Con 12 (4 points if human) - possibly the human may grab a +3 exceptional?
Int 18 (16 points if human) equal skill +1 DC favoring drow
Wis 8
Cha 10 (2 points if human) +1 mod drow

... is not 50, is 30 typically, Drow/elf both have racial toughness II (lack racial III) (-10) and -2 con (-20)... human taking an extra toughness accounts for 23 more so 53 max'd ... if +3 exceptional on human and +2 exceptional on drow then that 73 is possible.

Again if we say place all other feats equal and the human spent on an extra toughness.

Enhancement wise the human may opt for +5 skill boost... and of course sport +53 hp more due to an adaptability point and racial III and most likely healing amp...

The drow most likely would seek +2 dex more ... another DC and hopefully these are both finessed ... a +1 to hit, with a rapier the drow may decide on +2 more damage output ... who knows maybe +2 more attack (i do not know maybe they're gearing for epics and needed the to hit?) thus 4.5 more dps if a TWF build.

both builds seem more trap monkey PLUS then anything. People tout assasin PrE, I have one... but as a famous strength halfling rogue put it to me ... the only thing good about assasin in a group is tier III - he uses INT as a dump stat. Why? well simply put as you all know - the way to complete any quest is kill the boss.

[Anderei]

Emili also not to be forgotten that "powerplaying" is generally frowned upon Pen and Paper playing, maybe DnD a bit lesser than other PnPs, but somebody picking a race just to maximize its power? ->Meh. While powerplaying is most what players make out of DDO.

The halfling rogue is such a cliche, even in DnD. I like how Eberron gave them Healing Dragonmarks.
But yes the halfling additions do well match to a roguish specialisation (+4 to hide, +2 to other skills), while the humans are general purpose, thats why you can adjust that feat to what you want to do.

[gavagai]

... is not 50, is 30 typically, Drow/elf both have racial toughness II (lack racial III) (-10) and -2 con (-20)... human taking an extra toughness accounts for 23 more so 53 max'd ... if +3 exceptional on human and +2 exceptional on drow then that 73 is possible.

Good points about that build, though I certainly wouldn't suggest it to anyone.

The +50/+73 hps comment was directed to the pure caster build. A Drow's max Con score is 14 on a build that takes a casting stat to 20. A Human 32-point can take 18 in CON and 18 in that casting stat.

The 4 con difference = 40hps.

If the Human Adaptability point in Con adds another con bracket, then it will be. +60

Then add the human Toughness enhancement for an extra +10 = +50/+70.

Finally, the extra toughness feat [not recommended!]: +73/93

Not bad on a gimp caster.

[HallowedOne]

A second fix would be to add haste boost to human versitility.

I'd LOVE that one, but I think it might be too overkill. Also, I don't think it combines with the human racial traits.

On a side note, I think elves and halflings should have such enhancements, since they are the dexterous/agile races on D&D.

[gavagai]

On a side note, I think elves and halflings should have such enhancements, since they are the dexterous/agile races on D&D.

I think a haste boost, a spell damage/DC boost, or some other creative boost option (like poisons, DC 1/2 character level +10) would be great to add balance to Drow or Elves.

Halflings -- omg they certainly shouldn't get a haste boost! Who leggo my eggo??

[IronClan]

"human bonus feat"

Again when every race gets 4 to 7 free feats except humans, the one so-called bonus feat is no longer actually a bonus...

[SteeleTrueheart]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KatanAztar
You should allow the human versatility boosts as a substitute for the fighter attack boost.

I've got other plans for Human Versatility in a future mod, don't worry about that.

as per a previous post by eladrin

[gavagai]

"human bonus feat"

Again when every race gets 4 to 7 free feats except humans, the one so-called bonus feat is no longer actually a bonus...

Why the fixation on the quantity of feats? And not the quality? Many racial feats are decent, but most are junk after a couple levels.

Is a Barbarian improved more by having Toughness/Stunning Blow or Dwarven Search +2?
Is a Wizard/Rogue going to want +1 size bonus to AC and to-hit, or Insightful Reflexes/Spell Focus?

As a human, you choose a feat that maximizes the potential of the character you are playing. Show me a racial feat that is better than a self-selected human bonus feat.

Kopesh/Power Attack/Stunning Blow for melees.
Metamagic/Toughness/Mental Toughness/Spell Focus for casters.
Force of Personality/Insightful reflexes for low Dex/Wis builds.
Dodge/Combat Expertise for an AC build.
&c.

Many times a race will have a great fit with a specific build (Dwarf AC tank, Halfling Wis/AC Monk). But most of the time, more bonus feats doesn't mean it will be any better at what you want it to do. The human, on the other hand, can draw enormous benefit from that one feat.

[QuantumFX]

if they are going to keep HV as is, I would at least put it on it's own timer. Let it stack with all other boosts.

as per a previous post by eladrin

Apparently you guys didn't get the memo about how class action boosts and HV interact nowadays

[SteeleTrueheart]

Apparently you guys didn't get the memo about how class action boosts and HV interact nowadays

So you think the 'own timer' thing was all that Eladrin was referring to? I was sort of expecting more as in further enhancements that relied on HV as a pre req.

You're probably right though.

[usefullidiot]

Turbine should also let humans quad-wield, using hands and feet. 4 weapons = more versatility. They can make up some Eberron lore about how we were descended from apes or something...

This was more to the intent of the original post, but this has been an intresting and enlightening read.

Reflecting on this and some build threads, human is almost never the optimal build. I however am not really a min/maxer...so, yeah.

I will leave the actual advantages/disadvantages to others with more experiance than myself.

I wil add that Humans take extra damage from mobs, so we should get dinosaur mounts with laser turrets.

[QuantumFX]

So you think the 'own timer' thing was all that Eladrin was referring to? I was sort of expecting more as in further enhancements that relied on HV as a pre req.

You're probably right though.

Turbine is extremely gunshy about making more changes to it again since the first time went over so well with the playerbase. I think they see letting HV substitute for prereqs to be potentially overpowering. (Personally, I don’t see it considering some of the passive bonuses they give to other races.)

[IronClan]

The "significant" ability boost is +1 to a casting stat, in exchange for around -50HP (assuming each maxes CON and racial enhancements), less healing amp, less situational UMD (humans get up to +5 through their boost to skills -- great when rezzing on the fly).

I haven't run a high level caster (or rogue splash caster) in DDO, although I'm currently working on one. So honest question: do you really invest enhancements and feats on lots of HP when you've got little to no melee, and AC and are going to be trying like heck to avoid being in a position to take hits? Are you giving up caster related enhancements to do that? I realize 50hps is a lot on a squishy caster (and probably get the best bang for buck out of toughness of all the classes especially considering caster class feats leave some open feats to take it with). What are you giving up enhancements wise to be less squishy?... and if less squishy is that important to you, wouldn't you be better off as a Dwarf Caster with not just no minus to Con, but a bonus to it that will allow the Dwarf to have better starting stats than Humans, AND the dump stat of all dump stats... 6 Cha? Without actually rolling it I think the Dwarf ends up with higher Con and Higher Int (which would negate the 23 skill points Humans get, while giving the Dwarf higher spell DC's on top of that).

I think I've come around a little on this, I agree Humans aren't as bad as they at first appear to be from a lower level perspective. But this has a lot to do with playstyle and end game min maxed characters. I think people who don't care how their character does until end game have an entirely different perspective... Someone who's build is end game focused doesn't understand why anyone would care about racial feats like 13 SR and improved saves, skill bonus' that they don't use etc.

People who like to have spot and search bonus' and saves bonus' probably aren't going through the game for the 10th time... they probably don't know that a Kopesh does a couple more average damage per minute than a Dwarven Waraxe (or a Bastard Sword) due to having a X3 multiplier with a 10% threat range, and they might not even care if they did...

[Cyr]

I don't know that humans are really underpowered at all. There are plenty of good builds running them on Sarlona. The extra feat actually makes a huge difference on certain builds. The enhancements are the least exciting part of humans of course, but the healing amp one actually is one of the best parts of being human. The healing amp + extra feat actually works very well for high hit point feat starved builds such as pure barbs, mostly pure paladins, and pure paladins. It even helps alot on pure monks (although the extra feat is less important on those compared to the healing amp).

[Tilliak]

Humans get Skill and Feat bonues. They don't need fixing. Ever.

[Rusty_Can]

So honest question: do you really invest enhancements and feats on lots of HP when you've got little to no melee, and AC and are going to be trying like heck to avoid being in a position to take hits?

Hp are important for ANY build, casters included; I usually deem Toughness IV racial enhancement (available only to WF and dwarves) too expensive, but Toughness feat and 2 or 3 tiers of racial enhancements (20 hp for 3 APs or 30 hp for 6 APs) are not a bad deal.

As for AC, it's really hard to achieve decent AC on casters, hence I don't think many casters are really concerned with it; stoneskin, displacement and haste represent often a cheaper and more effective solution. However, I consider AC more gear-related than feat-related.

[Emili]

Humans get Skill and Feat bonues. They don't need fixing. Ever.

Considering your current race choices listed I was just wondering... Do you have any humans? Have you played every class as human to cap to actually compare them among other races in their class/builds? Why do you have many halflings with a rogue splash yet no humans built like them? You Barbarian you chose dwarf, tell me why not a human before that?

What is interesting is people point at extra feat yet do not realize most all other races have extra abilities equivalent of extra feat... then let us think? Is not gile similar to a feat in effect? What about Axe enhancements compared to weapon specialization, luck vs lightning reflexes? Should you know it or not enhancements serve the same exact functions as feats... Seven feat (eight for human) while you think about this consider what and where you are placing feat and what you consider in place of which in enhancement ...