Improving Humans

[usefullidiot]

So. Another thread I read recently enlightned me to the fact we may use erroneous information to push for racial improvements.
So lets combine a list of problems with humans. Real, imagined, or flat out made up. Then try and come up with some solutions to improve humans.

[Lithic]

1) Humans are the only race without a permanent damage enhancement (elves & dwarves have racial weapons, WF have power attack, halflings get 8 sneak damage). A 17second boost every 30 seconds 5/day does not compensate.

2) Other than human stat enhancement and human healing amplification, humans get zero worthwhile enhancements (and the healing amp is arguable, though I recently learned to love it on my heal-scroll-using rogue.


An easy fix to human enhancements is to give them the first 2 tiers of any 4 tier racial enhancement the other races get (or first tier of a 2 tier enhancement, and maybe 2 tiers of 3), though perhaps at a cost of 1 AP more per step. This represents the shear variety of human tendencies, and how different groups can specialize in different ways.

A second fix would be to add haste boost to human versitility. Oh and sprint boost/DR boost. If you are gonna make the main enhancment a boost, it may as well have the good boosts rather than just the 5 barely adequate ones.

[krud]

if they are going to keep HV as is, I would at least put it on it's own timer. Let it stack with all other boosts.

[Calebro]

An easy fix to human enhancements is to give them the first 2 tiers of any 4 tier racial enhancement the other races get (or first tier of a 2 tier enhancement, and maybe 2 tiers of 3), though perhaps at a cost of 1 AP more per step. This represents the shear variety of human tendencies, and how different groups can specialize in different ways.

I like this idea.

[gavagai]

An easy fix to human enhancements is to give them the first 2 tiers of any 4 tier racial enhancement the other races get (or first tier of a 2 tier enhancement, and maybe 2 tiers of 3), though perhaps at a cost of 1 AP more per step. This represents the shear variety of human tendencies, and how different groups can specialize in different ways.

A simple thought experiment shows why literally implementing this is way too overpowering. Humans would get the cheapest 2 tiers of all the best abilities, many of which stack:

Luck (Will): +2 Will saves for 3 AP
Vs. Spells: +2 Saves vs. Spells for 3 AP
Vs. Enchantments: +2 Saves vs. Enchantments for 3 AP
+6 for 9AP, compared to (say) a Dwarf's +6 for 10AP?!

Or:
Drow + Elf attack/melee: +2 Rapier atk/dmg for +8 AP total (would cost Elves/Drow 12 AP)
Sneak enhancements: +4 to-hit/damage for 8 AP
Human Versatility: +5 Damage for 20 seconds.
+6 to-hit, +11 damage for Sneak attacks, or +2/+7 normal attack, for 26AP.

My point: if they gave humans smaller-tier enhancement bonuses, they would have to hand-craft a line balanced for humans.

That said, I think humans are well balanced as is. Many classes benefit extremely by going human for the feat alone -- especially pure non-fighter melee classes, since that feat allows taking Kopesh. Unless I am splashing fighter or monk, many builds lose viability if they go non-human. [I don't have WF, however.]

The same goes for the extra skill point, which is excellent for multiclass builds. Think of that skill point as 2 free build points for abilities, without a penalty in any stat.

The stacking of class boosts with HV boosts is just gravy.

[IronClan]

+1 humans are versatile at crappy stuff that isn't very useful and doesn't get close to offsetting the racial bonus' every other race gets. That one extra feat amounts IMO to about a +2 stat bonus in ONE ability stat, if you look at the average feat it is generally giving you about that much "value" Such as a savings throw bonus, a +1 to hit or a +2 to damage +2-3 to a skill, +2 to spell pen...

So a feat is worth about 2-3 ability points (maybe 4 in the most extreme case, of a very good feat). Enough to take CON from 10 to 14 (0 bonus to +2) for example...

A Drow has +6 to select abilities, -2 to Con for a total of +4 (but effecitively much better than that because it allows you to hit 16 in DEX CHA and INT at a 1 build point per stat point cost where a human would only be able to "buy" a 14 in those same stats for the same 1 for 1 cost)

Then add lots of spot/search bonus' free weapon proficiencies, racial spell resistance....

Basically a Drow gets more ability points, and the equivalent of 5 or 6 free feats (+2 to 3 different skills, weapon proficiency, and a couple for the spell resists). Do the same thing for Halfing, and it's about the same ability points but maybe the equivalent of 7 or 8 free feats!!!! (AC, throwing stuff, three save feats, skills focus feats, bonus Rogue feat).

Forget about Enhancements, where Humans have the worst of everything. A Dwarf fighter gets a few free feats more than a Human (axes, spot, giant stuff, poison feat and saves feats) and then on top of that has better melee enhancements (Dwarven axe damage)...

Dragon marks well why bother....

I agree letting humans access the first tier (and a limited amount of second tier) of ALL race enhancements actually makes them "versatile"... and might actually make up for the fact that they end up with the equivalent of 5 to 8 less feats than any other race.

From a Darwinian standpoint the Humans of DDO would have been extincted by the Halflings and Dwarfs before they made it out of tribal culture

[gavagai]

+1 humans are versatile at crappy stuff that isn't very useful and doesn't get close to offsetting the racial bonus' every other race gets.

Obviously what is useful is relative to a playstyle. But I'm not seeing how humans are only versatile at "crappy stuff." I think when you look at it, you see many of the racial benefits you talk about are in fact the "crappy stuff," and humans are pretty well off.

Forget about Enhancements, where Humans have the worst of everything. A Dwarf fighter gets a few free feats more than a Human (axes, spot, giant stuff, poison feat and saves feats) and then on top of that has better melee enhancements (Dwarven axe damage)...

Racial weapon enhancements are easy to overestimate. Without considering weapon crit effects, a 50 STR Dwarf fighter with Kopeshes does more damage (on low fort mobs) that a 50 Str Dwarf fighter with axes and enhancements. An elf with kopeshes is similarly more DPS than an elf with scimmies/rapiers. Now crit effects are better for scimitars, but probably won't make scims "better" than kopeshes unless you're a paladin with every known burst effect in the game.

Now take a human with Kopeshes: she will do that same damage as Dwarf and Elf. Then consider the Human +1 Str. And for 10AP the human can add a burst +5 damage from HV.

Humans are no worse than Elves/Drow/Dwarves, but all four are below Warforged and Halflings for optimal DPS.

...spot, giant stuff, poison feat, and saves feats...

Skill bonuses are generally useless once you have the gear. Poison is so weak nowadays that it is hardly a benefit; and in any case a "Neutralize Poison" pot is good enough. The giant bonuses are only useful if, (a) you are an AC build, and (b) you fight giants a lot. Neither are likely to be true for most players. Hence, less useful.

The saves bonuses are really nice. Halfling bonuses, Dwarf bonuses, and (to a much lesser extent) Elf enchantment bonuses. But they are balanced; I don't think humans are gimp without them.

Dwarven Armor Mastery bonuses and Tactics bonuses are really nice, but again since most players aren't AC based and tactics fiends, these are balanced well enough. Dwarves have a solid niche, no problem with that; they also have to sacrifice for top UMD and Intim.

I think the clear loser in these comparisons are actually the stinkin' elves and the drow. They are more flavor races, but they have few truly "useful" benefits...

A Drow has +6 to select abilities, -2 to Con for a total of +4 (but effecitively much better than that because it allows you to hit 16 in DEX CHA and INT at a 1 build point per stat point cost where a human would only be able to "buy" a 14 in those same stats for the same 1 for 1 cost)

If you compare 32-point non Drow with Drow, you find that Drow are rarely rarely preferable to humans. Elves and Drow get shafted in the Stats game, since Turbine has decided survival = more hps. While elves get up to +4 dex, that Dex rarely makes up for the -2/-4 to Con most elves/drow roll with. Add Human Toughness III, and you see a human sitting with usually +30/+50 hp more than an elf/drow.

Humans are also the only race that can use enhancements to bump Str, Wis, Cha, and Int. So while the 20 CHA Drow Sorc gets up to +2 to Dex (useless), the 18 CHA human Sorc gets +1 to CHA. Until +4 tomes become more common, humans will usually be sitting in the same Mod bracket as a drow and with 50 more hps (14 Con vs. 18 Con + toughness III).

Dragon marks well why bother....

Agreed. This is the one area where the Elves got lucky.

[krud]

It depends on what you think that versatility means. Is it for each individual human, or is it for the race as a whole? I think having it apply for each individual, where all the racial enhancemnts would be open for selection may be a bit overpowered. I would tend to think it is the latter, where it is the race as a whole, and not each individual that has versatility. They can limit each human to selecting the abilities from only one race, e.g. you decide to select the dwarf enhancements, it locks out all the enhancements from the other races. Still limit them to only the first couple of tiers.

[Memnir]

I say really go with the versatility aspect of the Humans - and give them an Enhancement line to boost Exotic Weapon attacks and damage...

[gavagai]

I say really go with the versatility aspect of the Humans - and give them an Enhancement line to boost Exotic Weapon attacks and damage...

Turbine should also let humans quad-wield, using hands and feet. 4 weapons = more versatility. They can make up some Eberron lore about how we were descended from apes or something...

[IronClan]

Turbine should also let humans quad-wield, using hands and feet. 4 weapons = more versatility. They can make up some Eberron lore about how we were descended from apes or something...

In P&P that's called a monk =)

[Woody00]

A +5% experience enchment to reflect how they have the ablility to reach the max lvl cap with the shortest life span of all the races.

[IronClan]

Obviously some people have played the game enough that they mostly care about how their character plays at level 20 for them it all boils down to self repairing WF wizards, dual Kopeshes DPS and spell DC... and that's fine for those select few. I also notice the power gamers tend to love those clicky action boosts, in my group (all casual players but with years of MMO experience) everyone avoids "square" feats and enhancements like the plaque, we've got our hands full already... trying to remember to click a bunch of situational 20 second boosts at the right time isn't in the cards... IMHO those things are for the more accomplished twitch and FPS based players.

I think many players especially F2P are very much going to care about AC and skills for the first 15 or 16 levels. And I think even when they focus on end game; grinding for uber stuff or trying to come up with millions of platinum PER SLOT to buy +15 skill gear is not very realistic. So that gear doesn't (or shouldn't) negate the racial bonus' to skills your character is using.

If in fact you get the right gear, (or plan to) that also gives an advantage... those race skill bonus feats let you put more points in other skills and be that much more "well rounded".

The Drow vs Humans thing boils down to a LOT of virtual feats (weaps and spell resistance and skill bonus') AND a rather significant ability point boost for any arcane caster, or wiz/rog multi... If Dex (rogue skills) and Int are important to you the Drow will end up with 4 ability points more than a 32 point Human, and no -1 to UMD (min 10 CHA).

So there's no incentive to roll a human for a rogue/wizard... if you do it for theme or RP reasons you're actually taking a significant penalty (more power to you). You certainly don't need the Human's extra feat to take most every useful wiz class feat.

If CON is important (and yeah they've made it very important I agree by making AC such a lofty target at high levels) then the Dwarf is surely a far superior choice than Human for anything melee... again he gets 4 or 5 "race feats" including the very tempting Dwarven war axe, which is worth a feat in and of itself for some people (greataxe like crit numbers and can dual wield or shield). For abilities the same 32 points gets you identical stats with a 18 CON and 8 CHA for a human or a 20 CON and 6 CHA for a Drawf...

But if you min max less (and I think you should) the drawf can have the same 8 CHA and the same 18 CON as the human (all other abilities identical just for the sake of even comparison) but the Drawf ends up with 4 free left over build points while the human has 0 left... (this is assuming 10's in Dex Int and Wis) so there's some serious points there if you want more skill points per level or more dex (to fill the max AC cap if you have Mithril stuff) or more for Wis (if you want to multi to battle Cleric, or take a Monk Splash)... So basically if you want "versatility" you want to take Dwarf.

In the above example the Human (who gets 1 bonus skill point per level and 4 at 1st) ends up LESS SKILLED (less versatile) if the Dwarf _wants_ extra skills those 4 points left over make for a 14 Int, which is 40 skill points to the Humans free 23... 17 more skill points at the same 32 point build cost with the other stats being identical. Hmmm by that token a Dwarf looks like a better race than Human to make a "battle mage" out of. Or a Rogue splash with HP's

So who's the versatile race again?

I could go on, Pure rogue or many multi's are better off as Drow or Halflings with healing dragonmarks. AC builds wont be Human, WF casters can heal themsevles, non melee's that don't need STR or builds that plan to be squishy are better off as Drow or Halfing, builds that want best survivability (HP) = Dwarf or WF...

So it appears the best reason to pick a Human is Paladin (arguably depending on how much Cha you want... if 12 Cha works for your build then the Dwarf makes a stronger Pally even... and that's totally counter-intuitive!) or theme or role play based (or purely end game so you can have max feats + Kopesh)...

[mediocresurgeon]

On Sarlona, I really only see 3 races played: Halflings, Humans, and Warforged. IMO we should give the Drow, Elves, and Dwarves a boost.

[rimble]

if they are going to keep HV as is, I would at least put it on it's own timer. Let it stack with all other boosts.

hehe, from the Update 3 release notes:

The temporary boosts granted by Human Versatility no longer share a common cooldown timer with other Action Boosts, allowing a Human to use a Human Versatility and a class based Action Boost simultaneously. Note that since both provide Action Boost bonuses, identical boosts will not stack, but a Human Rogue could, for instance, combine Human Damage Boost with Rogue Haste Boost.

[Anderei]

I think the human is fine as s/he is, when versality was introduced weren't there hugh topics complaining that DDO is overpowering humans?

Obvious: Humans get a bonus feat, while not worth mentioning in fighter builds, in all this build starved classes its very welcomed.
Sometimes forgotten: +20 Skill Points, worthwhile since many skills are more important in DDO than in D&D
Also: Humans are the only race that get a Charisma and Wisdom bonus.

If I'd change something, it would allow greater adaption to be on the same stat than the first one. But thats all (and I agree the human dragonmarks are IMHO worthless, except maybe the passage on a fighter who got tons of feet to be able to waste one for DD, but also here its questionable)

[Emili]

■Cannith Repairing I
■Cannith Repairing II
■Cannith Repairing III
■Cannith Repairing IV

Dragon mark (feat dependent – typically considered a wasted set of feats) factor in the repair skill is mundane and totally unnecessary. - gimp enhancement but specialized build.

■Deneith Intimidation I
■Deneith Intimidation II
■Deneith Intimidation III
■Deneith Intimidation IV

Dragon mark (feat dependent – typically considered useful on intimidating tank builds) Specialized build – non versatile in sense the human serves one purpose.

■Extra Dragonmark Use I
■Extra Dragonmark Use II
■Extra Dragonmark Use III
■Extra Dragonmark Use IV

Dragon mark (feat dependent) all dragon marked races possess – would consider non racial trait.

■Human Adaptability Charisma I
■Human Adaptability Constitution I
■Human Adaptability Dexterity I
■Human Adaptability Intelligence I
■Human Adaptability Strength I
■Human Adaptability Wisdom I

Well received flexible but surprisingly this garners an advantage attained by most races in an exceptional or profane bonus item slot requires higher level then other races defined attributes to attain and still behind in build points spent for equalization. (Note – one of Adaptability or Greater Adaptability always ends up in CON to open up the third tier of racial toughness)

■Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
■Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
■Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity I
■Human Greater Adaptability Intelligence I
■Human Greater Adaptability Strength I
■Human Greater Adaptability Wisdom I

Well received flexible but surprisingly this garners an advantage attained by most races in an exceptional or profane bonus item slot requires higher level then other races defined attributes to attain and still behind in build points spent for equalization. (Note – one of Adaptability or Greater Adaptability always ends up in CON to open up the third tier of racial toughness)

■Human Improved Recovery I
■Human Improved Recovery II
■Human Improved Recovery III

Useful in survivability – is after fact – Healing human costs less yet humans in general need more healing due to average lower defenses in AC, Saves, and middle road HP. This enhancement stacks with items thus humans reach higher healing amplification then other races in general though other races so equipped with healing amp items take less damages via saves, AC or HP buffer.

■Human Versatility I
■Human Versatility II
■Human Versatility III
■Human Versatility IV

Often used as a undesired filler...

Skill boost is useful for skill based builds ... does not stack with class skill boosts yet supplements allowing a multi-classed skill based build to reach maximum skill boost clickie. Sad side is among it's other options only the AC boosting and Save boosting (when turtling or expecting the worst) bear any warrant... second guessing or staying alive in times of trouble... maybe something you would not have to worry about had you been dwarf, halfling, warforged or possibly even elf/drow.

Attack boost and Damage boost are actually a detriment to what the intended result should be... i.e. The only time to use damage boost is while running up to the mob in question... hitting the boost while mob engaged actually lowers DPS by removing near a second (even with Quickdraw feated) the +5 to damage on subsequent swings of it's duration total less then the swing given up, I and others have proven this time and again.

■Iron Companion
■Mithral Companion
■Steel Companion

All races have these

■Orien Balance I
■Orien Balance II
■Orien Balance III
■Orien Balance IV

Dragon mark (feat dependent) Specialized build – non versatile in sense the human serves one purpose.

■Racial Toughness I
■Racial Toughness II
■Racial Toughness III

Everyone gets two tiers... tier three requires Adaptability or Greater Adaptability be taken in CON (costing 12 Aps to achieve)

Effectively pondering the lists the human race possess four actual usable enhancements ... two of which most humans would strive for and two of which are more dependent on the first two... I would wager most humans carry Adaptability, Greater Adaptability, Human Improved Recovery and Racial Toughness III.

I go not into base DnD considerations as those racial traits are indeed base - the reason to be human - a feat and extra skill - the stat point distribution etc... these are base DnD description. Rounded stat points on human is what make them strong contender for Bard and Paladin classes (places where stat points need more even distritbution)... The exageration other races possess in enhancements are based much on this base - WF extra damage, Halfling Guile, Dwarf Con, etc... Humans do not have that... DDO did not exagerate the human vis enhancements for extra feat nor skill as much as they built on the other races for the same ... nor had they taken the "favored class" (which is really only a xp bonus on multi-classed in DnD core rule) and addressed "Human favored class any" bears no meaning in the same light as "Favored class fighter" as on a dwarf.

I do admit though... Elves, who by definition should be a significant race in both melee and arcane take a back seat to more CON oriented races yet only slightly ... For melee this is moreso due to the power of the Khopesh and not the race however... The max'd difference in hp between elf/drow is "30" the average is "20." Among arcane builds however the human fairs better due the base feat and skill for the DDO overpowered skill UMD ... much moreso then the CON.

The question then arises... what do other races spend AP distribution on. I know for a fact the bulk of human AP's are spent typically on more costly class enhancements... i.e. racial III + class toughness IV ... whereas the dwarf/wf would likely racial II + class II and con 2 for like results... gaining more fort and hp then the human.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I go not into base DnD considerations as those racial traits are indeed base - the reason to be human - a feat and extra skill - the stat point distribution etc... these are base DnD description. Rounded stat points on human is what make them strong contender for Bard and Paladin classes (places where stat points need more even distritbution)... The exageration other races possess in enhancements are based much on this base - WF extra damage, Halfling Guile, Dwarf Con, etc... Humans do not have that... DDO did not exagerate the human vis enhancements for extra feat nor skill as much as they built on the other races for the same ... nor had they taken the "favored class" (which is really only a xp bonus on multi-classed in DnD core rule) and addressed "Human favored class any" bears no meaning in the same light.

Bravo! +1 for a REAL reply, and not opinion.

[Emili]

Obvious: Humans get a bonus feat, while not worth mentioning in fighter builds, in all this build starved classes its very welcomed.
Sometimes forgotten: +20 Skill Points, worthwhile since many skills are more important in DDO than in D&D

Have you got that switched? Skills are more important in DnD and not DDO - fact is in DDO there are less skills and a lot less skills of any real worth as DDO is a combat game not a RPG. DDO has but one GOD skill (UMD) and a smattering of nice to haves... I see plenty a drow sorc healing and resing, I know not many halfling or drow rogues complaining about lack of diplomacy, DD nor OL... and deffinately none have ever told me - "I wish I built this human."

Also of note... bonus feat and extra skill points are Base DnD ... nothing to do at all with enhancements. Items in game + the other racial enhancemnts overshadow those "Human racial enhancements" we currently have... There is no denying the a WF, Dwarf or Halfling melee will average higher DPS, Saves, AC then the human counterpart when put in practice they are more well rounded for those tasks in general. Humans shine in Bard, Pally and Sorc and lesser extent extreme skilled rogue ... but there is no defining factor on a human which screams "THIS CLASS" human is great.

[Zuldar]

One thing I was thinking of would be to allow humans to take the first tier of any pre enhancement. They could substitute human versatility for any class enhancements. It would help to represent their adaptability a bit, and probably be enough to make them worth considering.

Of course it would count as their racial pre and they could only have one at a time.