Why are clerics > FVS when it comes to caster+healer builds?

[Enochroot]

Cleric vs. FvS is about tied when it comes to main healing in a raid-boss situation, unless the FvS wastes a bunch of slots taking all the right spells (heal+mass, cure critical+mass, mass cure serious) and goes all out on Charisma to mitigate empower heal; in which case the favored soul is healbotting and the cleric wins outright through versatility.

/snip

But, like I said, a cleric who takes empower heal and the enhancements is about as efficient as a favored soul, unless the FvS goes all out on healboting and gimps their build with too much charisma. But then, for everything else the FvS is worse off as the cleric can make good use of the symbol spells and all.

One - I use mass heal all the time on fvs, non-emped, and i rarely fail to top everyone that gets hit with it (and assuming I'm doing it right, that's all the people I need hit with it).


Second - why would a FvS "max cha to keep up" - and how would it even help them keep up? A few more sp? No good FvS does this - apparently only "Euro FvS" do this. Well, whatever.

Indeed. Here's an example; what's the difference between a heightened/quickened symbol of pain, energy drain, and a heightened curse? Right off the bat we can see huge potential with energy drain, being stackable, averaging at -5 to saves per hit, and providing a host of debuffs to other areas, but what about against enemies with immunity to negative levels? Should you sit like a lump on a log and wait for it to die by itself? No. Instead, maybe a curse spell is enough; sure, it's got a save (which means it won't work in high-saves content), but it lasts a while (unfortunately not permanent anymore...) and works on nearly anything but purples, and it's better than nothing if you can land it reliably. But sure, maybe cursing isn't enough; instead, you can quicken a symbol of pain and hit a group of five mobs with a -4 penalty to attacks, skills, and saves, plus any new mobs who are aggroed to you. Sure, it's a fort save; sucks, doesn't it? It also lasts 20 seconds and can be kited through; drop one in the middle of your blade-barrier and tell me how you like it. A typical person will look at energy drain and prepare it, but a canny caster will see the value in these other spells for the occasions that they are useful in and put them to good use. And fair enough, you'll find enemies with high fortitude and will saves, plus immunity to negative levels, so you won't do much good trying to use these spells in that content. You'll find a lot of content is fine with energy drain alone. But you'll also find a lot content where negative levels don't work and even a fort save is okay if it hits multiple foes and can still hit foes even after it's been cast.

Your examples are dumb, because FvS can do exactly the same thing (or if they can't, here's where to list why they can't!!! THEN you'd have a CASE!). How is this a DIFFERENTIAL of the two classes? You can't just post examples of one class or the other, you have to post HOW THEY"RE DIFFERENT. Same with your stupid levelling spell list and end-game spell list. Yeah, it's a bit harder to level a FvS, but any competent FvS player can get by with a subset of your "useful" list - and once you hit endgame, you will have all the spells you've listed, should you want them.


So, when you compare - don't compare your "offensive caster cleric" to "all fvs" - just pretend you made him a fvs, in exactly the same way, THEN compare. Same feats, same stats, same spells, up to where you can't have the same number, then look at what spells you'd have to dump, and THEN compare.

[TheDjinnFor]

Why do you and others keep saying garbage like this? One - I use mass heal all the time on fvs, non-emped, and i rarely fail to top everyone that gets hit with it (and assuming I'm doing it right, that's all the people I need hit with it).

I'm assuming you've got a 150 point heal with +40% enhancements, + crit stuff and that's it? Maybe criting once in a while, hitting someone with healers friend or some humans... But not every character has 300 hp. Relying on crits to full-heal a wf barb sounds stupid. You're also wasting mana using mass heals by overhealing if that's all you do, which is what it sounds like. Might not feel like much to you, but if I could throw a mass cure critical instead, I wouldn't have to quicken it and I'd save 15 sp on a 55 sp cast; if I do that for every possible healing spell I throw your extra mana goes straight out the window. Admittedly, it's not liable that I'll be perfectly efficient for all healing (it's certainly up for human error) so FvS still have some grace room that depends on the skill of the cleric.

Secondly, it's not garbage. Disagree, fair enough.

Second - why would a FvS "max cha to keep up" - and how would it even help them keep up? A few more sp? No good FvS does this - apparently only "Euro FvS" do this. Well, whatever.

You're taking hypothetical examples that I clearly indicated were stupid and trying to make an insult out of it. Keep trying.

But, why would a FvS take more Cha? Good question. When I've got to heal a 600+ hp barb (or three... who are warforged...), I could use the extra +50% for 6 extra sp; I could let him take the extra two or three or whatever hits and then almost full-heal him in one shot. The fact that a favored soul needs to do this in 10 sp (if they even choose at all, which is almost never) is a big difference; that combined with the efficiency of casting the better spell at the right time and clerics are better at healing than most generalist FvS. The only way for FvS to catch up is to do something stupid like get more cha for more SP, or get a whole bunch of healing spells, and gimp themselves somewhere else.

Your examples are dumb, because FvS can do exactly the same thing (or if they can't, here's where to list why they can't!!! THEN you'd have a CASE!). How is this a DIFFERENTIAL of the two classes? You can't just post examples of one class or the other, you have to post HOW THEY"RE DIFFERENT. Same with your stupid levelling spell list and end-game spell list. Yeah, it's a bit harder to level a FvS, but any competent FvS player can get by with a subset of your "useful" list - and once you hit endgame, you will have all the spells you've listed, should you want them.

You want to know why they can't? They can't because no favoured soul takes all three of curse, energy drain, and symbol of pain. If they do, great; but then I'll bring up another example, like the three level 4 spell alignment spells. So the FvS takes those too; then I bring up some more examples. The Favored Soul is going to run out of slots, and quickly. By the end of it all, too, you'll have a completely gimped favored soul on your hands, and a cleric not worse for wear. I'm under the assumption that people know this already so why should I waste time posting builds?

So, when you compare - don't compare your "offensive caster cleric" to "all fvs" - just pretend you made him a fvs, in exactly the same way, THEN compare. Same feats, same stats, same spells, up to where you can't have the same number, then look at what spells you'd have to dump, and THEN compare.

So what, I should restrict a clerics spell list to what he has prepared? A clerics spell choice is effectively his entire list; as long as I'm semi-competent so that I know what's coming ahead I've got enough slots to tackle any situation. I can't give them the same stats if I'm to plan for enough charisma. Giving them the same feats is stupid as clerics have more synergy with empower heal while FvS have it better with empower.

But fine then. I'll make an offensive casting cleric with a whole slew of offensive spells prepared (which is really moot since he can switch them out any time he wants based on the content), and when I imitate the same spell list with a Favored Soul he won't have any healing spells at all because he'll be out of spell slots. I've done it before in the character planner, and I'll do it again for you. I bet you I can even get a FvS who couldn't fit Blade Barrier in because of some useful level 6 spell. Better yet, waste your own time.

The whole point is, when you gimp a Favored Soul by doing that, the comparison between the two classes is moot at that time as clerics will be completely superior (you know, being able to cast healing spells, decent buffs, and maybe melee). The only thing I can possibly do as a fair comparison is make a balanced Favored Soul with the best spells I can fit on him and point out the various half-decent spells he'll miss out on, not being a cleric, such as the various symbol spells. No FvS worth his salt is going to carry around curse, symbol of pain, and energy drain, all at once.

See, if I turn around and say "what makes a cleric better than a FvS" and I follow your plan, I could make the 5 worst FvS ever that are "better" than clerics in the particular areas of comparison.

No, the point is, a FvS can't have all the spells in that list I made. You want me to prove it? Sure, here ya go. Let's take that other spell list that was posted and compare it.

Spell (1): Command
Spell (1): Divine Favor
Spell (1): Nightshield
Spell (1): Obscuring Mist
Spell (2): Soundburst
Spell (2): Resist Energy
Spell (2): Deific Vengance
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
*Missing: Hold Person
Spell (3): Searing Light
Spell (3): Magic Circle Against Evil
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (3): Prayer
*Missing: Contagion
*Missing: Bestow Curse
Spell (4): Divine Power
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Mass Shield of Faith
*Missing: Deathward
*Missing: Chaos Hammer (Important)
*Missing: Holy Smite (Important)
*Missing: Order's Wrath (Important)
*Missing: Recitation (Important)
*Missing: Poison (Important)
Spell (5): Greater Command
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds
Spell (5): Flame Strike
*Missing: Symbol of Pain (Important)
*Missing: Symbol of Weakness (Important)
Spell (6): Blade Barrier
Spell (6): Heal
Spell (6): Cometfall
*Missing: Banishment (Important)
*Missing: Greater Dispel Magic (Important)
*Missing: Symbol of Persuasion
*Missing: Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (7): Destruction
Spell (7): Resurrection
Spell (7): Mass Cure Serious Wounds
*Missing: Mass Spell Resistance
*Missing: Mass Protection from Elements
Spell (8): Death Pact
Spell (8): Mass Death Ward
*Missing: Holy Aura (Important)
*Missing: Mass Cure Critical Wounds (Important)
Spell (9): Implosion
*Missing: Energy Drain (Important)
*Missing: Mass Heal (!?!?)
*Missing: True Resurrection

Hmm, that's what, 20 spells missing? 12 of them pretty important? He's still got 2 9th level and 1 8th level to chose from, but still... Sure, I suppose I could make a few nitpicks at the low level spells, but the higher levels, really important spells are missing that will severely limit what contributions a FvS can make to the party.

Look, you play Favored Souls? Fine. Don't think that a well-played cleric can't beat you, because I reckon there are a few out there that can.

[Enochroot]

I'm assuming you've got a 150 point heal with +40% enhancements, +50% superior potency, and that's it? Maybe criting once in a while, hitting someone with healers friend or some humans... But not every character has 300 hp. Relying on crits to full-heal a wf barb sounds stupid. You're also wasting mana using mass heals by overhealing if that's all you do, which is what it sounds like. Might not feel like much to you, but if I could throw a mass cure critical instead, I wouldn't have to quicken it and I'd save 15 sp on a 55 sp cast; if I do that for every possible healing spell I throw your extra mana goes straight out the window. Admittedly, it's not liable that I'll be perfectly efficient for all healing (it's certainly up for human error) so FvS still have some grace room that depends on the skill of the cleric.

Secondly, it's not garbage. Disagree, fair enough.

The reason it was garbage is because there was no way to have a meaningful discussion on it. Now, this response, it's certainly possible. First, I'm a bit shocked you're comparing non-quickened healing, it's a rare circumstance I wouldn't want quicken on. Of course, I'm always in the fray, fighting or not, and I'll generally recover 15-45 sp (or more) between group heals anyway, so for me, quicken is a must. If you're not fighting or regenning sp, I guess your point is valid. Also, if it's a waste for me to be mass healing groups, it's more of a waste for you to be emp. mass healing groups.

You're taking hypothetical examples that I clearly indicated were stupid and trying to make an insult out of it. Keep trying.

You may have indicated they were stupid but insisted it was "the only way to 'keep up'" - with no actual data or numbers. Others have done it, as well, in this thread. I'm asking you to validate why you think what you think. Apparently insulting you was the only way for you to actually write a reasonably well thought out post.

But, why would a FvS take more Cha? Good question. When I've got to heal a 600+ hp barb (or three... who are warforged...), I could use the extra +50% for 6 extra sp; I could let him take the extra two or three or whatever hits and then almost full-heal him in one shot. The fact that a favored soul needs to do this in 10 sp (if they even choose at all, which is almost never) is a big difference; that combined with the efficiency of casting the better spell at the right time and clerics are better at healing than most generalist FvS. The only way for FvS to catch up is to do something stupid like get more cha for more SP, or get a whole bunch of healing spells, and gimp themselves somewhere else.

"Catch up" - when a FvS starts off with 500-800 more sp? Ok, fair, high-hp WF barb groups, emp. healing might be worth it, but 1) this isn't the pug scene, at least on sarlona, and 2) if you run with groups like this a lot (guild?) just pick up emp. healing yourself. 4 more sp/mass heal ... you'll still have plenty of sp to cover it on your FvS. (2200/55=40, 40*4 ~= 160 sp ? 240 without torc - using lorrik's?)

You want to know why they can't? They can't because no favoured soul takes all three of curse, energy drain, and symbol of pain. If they do, great; but then I'll bring up another example, like the three level 4 spell alignment spells. So the FvS takes those too; then I bring up some more examples. The Favored Soul is going to run out of slots, and quickly. By the end of it all, too, you'll have a completely gimped favored soul on your hands, and a cleric not worse for wear. I'm under the assumption that people know this already so why should I waste time posting builds?

Heh? We'll cover this in the spell selection section, I'm guessing. But good assumptions? Again, compare your cleric to a FvS YOU would build. Who cares what a noob does.

So what, I should restrict a clerics spell list to what he has prepared? A clerics spell choice is effectively his entire list; as long as I'm semi-competent so that I know what's coming ahead I've got enough slots to tackle any situation. I can't give them the same stats if I'm to plan for enough charisma. Giving them the same feats is stupid as clerics have more synergy with empower heal while FvS have it better with empower.

Oh, wow, swapping emp and emp healing, that COMPLETELY changes your build. Oh my god. Wow, how could we cope with such a DRASTIC freaking change?!?! And fine, assume cleric's can have whatever divine spells they want, that's fair, that's what I want you to do.

But fine then. I'll make an offensive casting cleric with a whole slew of offensive spells prepared (which is really moot since he can switch them out any time he wants based on the content), and when I imitate the same spell list with a Favored Soul he won't have any healing spells at all because he'll be out of spell slots. I've done it before in the character planner, and I'll do it again for you. I bet you I can even get a FvS who couldn't fit Blade Barrier in because of some useful level 6 spell. Better yet, waste your own time.

The whole point is, when you gimp a Favored Soul by doing that, the comparison between the two classes is moot at that time as clerics will be completely superior (you know, being able to cast healing spells, decent buffs, and maybe melee). The only thing I can possibly do as a fair comparison is make a balanced Favored Soul with the best spells I can fit on him and point out the various half-decent spells he'll miss out on, not being a cleric, such as the various symbol spells. No FvS worth his salt is going to carry around curse, symbol of pain, and energy drain, all at once.

See, if I turn around and say "what makes a cleric better than a FvS" and I follow your plan, I could make the 5 worst FvS ever that are "better" than clerics in the particular areas of comparison.

No, the point is, a FvS can't have all the spells in that list I made. You want me to prove it? Sure, here ya go. Let's take that other spell list that was posted and compare it.

Finally, meat and potatoes, we can have a real discussion. I'm assuming we're talking end game? If the discussion "is levelling harder with a FvS?" Then, yes, but it's still not hard.

Spell (1): Command
Spell (1): Divine Favor
Spell (1): Nightshield
Spell (1): Obscuring Mist
Spell (2): Soundburst
Spell (2): Resist Energy
Spell (2): Deific Vengance
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
*Missing: Hold Person

K, deific vengance is necessary for? For that matter, hold person is necessary for? Neither of these are necessary in any way.

Spell (3): Searing Light
Spell (3): Magic Circle Against Evil
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (3): Prayer
*Missing: Contagion
*Missing: Bestow Curse

K, take searing light, CSW, prayer, circle - swap in bestow curse for CSW later, why exactly do you need contagion?

Spell (4): Divine Power
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Mass Shield of Faith
*Missing: Deathward
*Missing: Chaos Hammer (Important)
*Missing: Holy Smite (Important)
*Missing: Order's Wrath (Important)
*Missing: Recitation (Important)
*Missing: Poison (Important)

Mass SoF is worthless. Deathward is worthless end game when you have mass. Leaves you with DP (if you even need it, if you're not melee at all or much just use clickies) - FoM, Recitation, and Holy Smite. I *guess* chaos, order's wrath and poison are important, pick one insead of DP if you really want it. Depends what content you're running, I guess. I'm curious as to your use cases as to why you think these are so important. But you can take a point there.

Spell (5): Greater Command
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds
Spell (5): Flame Strike
*Missing: Symbol of Pain (Important)
*Missing: Symbol of Weakness (Important)

Neither GC nor flame strike are necessary end game. Use GC through GH (or until you get BB).

Spell (6): Blade Barrier
Spell (6): Heal
Spell (6): Cometfall
*Missing: Banishment (Important)
*Missing: Greater Dispel Magic (Important)
*Missing: Symbol of Persuasion
*Missing: Mass Cure Moderate Wounds

BB, Heal, MCMW. Tell me where in the game I can't just destruct/BB instead of Banish, not seeing it's "importance (especially current end game, banish is doing ... what, exactly?)". Symbol of persuasion is nice situationally, but honestly, I can just kill everything. Cometfall is absolutely unnecessary once you have BB. Only time i miss not having it is on part3 shroud breaking those stupid crystals.

Spell (7): Destruction
Spell (7): Resurrection
Spell (7): Mass Cure Serious Wounds
*Missing: Mass Spell Resistance
*Missing: Mass Protection from Elements

Yeah, I don't carry MCSW on my offensive caster. But you can on melee fvs. Scroll mass spell resistance if you really need it? (I personally don't think anyone should need it)

Spell (8): Death Pact
Spell (8): Mass Death Ward
*Missing: Holy Aura (Important)
*Missing: Mass Cure Critical Wounds (Important)

This is, in fact, a tough one, and I hate dropping holy aura, but a second mass spell is good. K, you win a point here, decision holy aura or MCCW. I never see anyone else casting holy aura (even clerics) - so I'll assume most will go MCCW.

Spell (9): Implosion
*Missing: Energy Drain (Important)
*Missing: Mass Heal (!?!?)
*Missing: True Resurrection

Wait, why do I only get one spell? Implosion, energy drain, mass heal. Easy. True res is only nice to have, not necessary at all.

Hmm, that's what, 20 spells missing? 12 of them pretty important? He's still got 2 9th level and 1 8th level to chose from, but still... Sure, I suppose I could make a few nitpicks at the low level spells, but the higher levels, really important spells are missing that will severely limit what contributions a FvS can make to the party.

Look, you play Favored Souls? Fine. Don't think that a well-played cleric can't beat you, because I reckon there are a few out there that can.

[/quote]



I'm not comparing myself to others. That's stupid, again. Compare apples to apples, not Xereum to TheDjinnFor. I'm sure you have amazing hax skills and could heal a noob party through a ToD with only your pinky. Whatever.



Sure there's lots of "missing" spells, that's the point - but none of them are really going to make up for the strengths of FvS. A few decisions at 4 and 8. It will depend on your playstyle, groups, and content, as to the decisions there. We're comparing Chaos Hammer, Order's Wrath, and Holy Aura to:



Wings? C'mon. They're ridiculous. They're the best tool in offensive fvs/clericing since sliced bread. I would take "Wing ability" over any spell in that list save BB and heal. K, maybe just save BB. Free searing lights? Astounding. Free 10 DR? Full jump skill? Free extra resists? More HP? More SP (I know, we covered that)



Wings can single-handedly save a part 2 ToD, allow you to kite chains, save you from tripping/air ele mobs, etc., I'd love to see what spell on your list you think is more important.

[Corstaad]

Why does more SPs matter if you can get a bottomless supply of mana pots? Min and Max crowd wont be happy tell they bring out the awesomesheets to explain to the rest of us how uber they are.

[Enochroot]

Why does more SPs matter if you can get a bottomless supply of mana pots? Min and Max crowd wont be happy tell they bring out the awesomesheets to explain to the rest of us how uber they are.

Even if they're cheap, they still cost something, right?


How much are y'all spending on this game?!?!?


And, if you take your argument, it doesn't matter what you build, at all. So what's the point of anything?? Oh, in fact, that's the precise reason consumables and casual mode are ruining the game. NOTHING MATTERS.

[Emili]

My favored soul has death pact, destruction, greater restoration.

And all your other spells... there are spells you can use to achieve the same effect... you simply have to know how to use them. Can greater command keep people from taking damage? Sure. Can blade barrier do the exact same thing? Yes. Aggro is a form of crowd control as well.

SoF is NEVER the difference between beating a quest and not. The truth is, most spells are mostly redundant. Banish, slay living, dismissal, destruction, implosion... these all have their little particularities, but they are basically the same spell.
...
.

... and I play my cleric and FvS like a wizard compared... You can run in Implode turn arround level drain then destruct the other mob that got away turn towards other way then Banish (or comet fall) the devils now grouped at the tanks behind after i tossed them a mass cure... The cleric though has more decision on what they wish to alternate...

You see sorc works well as arcane because of the marrage or SP pool and fast casting - "spamming a few spells", Wizard works well as arcane because of multiple spell flip chaining - "spamming multiple spells"... Two things happening there - the sorc spams because of fast cooldown, the wizard spams because of extra spell slots ...

Cleric and Fvs may do multiple spell chaining as a caster just like a wizard yet due to spell slotting a FvS has fewer to select from to do so, a cleric can spam and adjust to the environment like the wizard... then we have Turbine ... as they add more spells - which they do with every few mods ... now the FvS needs to pick and choose carefully and the cleric well he can go test play and find the best use for it.

Do not get me wrong I love my FvS bit to get the insta death plus damage levels plus healing spell cycle on her is way too rough - I have to go pretty specific and choose on my FvS and I do not have the spamming capabilities of the sorc... While the general AoE BB's are ok I have less choice of spells to fire off while the cooldown for BB is still on ... that fast cooldown is what makes a sorc. What makes the FvS is the DR, hp and saves - it's a better survivable toon ... but when it comes to shear casting power quiken helps both on getting the spells off but the cleric lays down the heat under pressure because it can spam some other substitue spells quickly (not just a few) while the other is cooling down, and there be no denying it has the DC to stick them.

[Corstaad]

Even if they're cheap, they still cost something, right?


How much are y'all spending on this game?!?!?


And, if you take your argument, it doesn't matter what you build, at all. So what's the point of anything?? Oh, in fact, that's the precise reason consumables and casual mode are ruining the game. NOTHING MATTERS.

The arguement is dumb because we know a set number of uber spells and available resources. Once people figure that out they either quit or dont care. Its stupid to argue which is better when the end result is a video game that IS entertainment.

[Enochroot]

The arguement is dumb because we know a set number of uber spells and available resources. Once people figure that out they either quit or dont care. Its stupid to argue which is better when the end result is a video game that IS entertainment.

Unless, of course, you get your entertainment FROM the arguing ...

[Dandonk]

Guilty! Sometimes I toss up a mass bears / bulls to see who is wearing at least a +4 item.

Hehe, I did that over at Devourer, too. Much fun! Especially if I caught a guildy while swapping items.

[Corstaad]

Hehe I understand that. Its just funny how the Sorc/Wizzy and FvS/Cleric arguments play out when they're basically the same classes.

[Danmor]

Imo clerics are much easier to play for a beginning player. If you're going offensive caster/healbot you just need Con and Wis. With your heavy armor and some buffs you've got good survivability at low levels and you can adjust your spells for every quest. Also the lower sp pool teaches the new player how to preserve mana.
Once you got some experience as to which spells are actually useful and how to deal with aggro a FvS becomes viable. If you want to be able to melee, heal and cast offensive spells (effectively) you need quite a bit of gear and some experience. But once you got that down, FvS rock.
My first toon was a cleric and I then tried a FvS. In term of pure fun the FvS wins hands-down.
But (!) if you spec a cleric for pure healbotting I guess the cleric's better at it than a FvS. Still, doing that effectively gimps you because no toon should be a one-trick pony.

[Enochroot]

But (!) if you spec a cleric for pure healbotting I guess the cleric's better at it than a FvS. Still, doing that effectively gimps you because no toon should be a one-trick pony.

... Why?


Because you "guess"?

[Purgatory]

I consider myself a expert on cleric, And now I have a fvs.

My cleric been my main for several years played him just like a caster very aggresive at that. solo most anything on elite witht he best gear possible and then some... haste and displace clickys, torq, 3 CO items, glacier assualt set, skiver, perfect set of DT outfit, stone skin clikies, all the imunities, maxed out wisdom. Invested heavly in jump and concintration.

My FVS hands down out performs my cleric... same play style. With jump as class skill I'm able to invest some into balance, 55 resist is huge (from shroud items and fvs feats) Wings while ur kiting mobs threw your BB is un replaceable by a cleric, 10 DR, more sp not that it matter my clr never ran out with the gear he had but only have torq on my fvs... SAVES my clr has decent saves but nothing like my FVS reflex save with dex as my dump stat - almost always takeing 1/2 dmg where my clr would always always take full.

2 spells my cleric cast that my fvs cant (and wish i could) is symbol of persusion and banish (neither are required to do any quest but both are great to have)

My fvs heal just as well as my cleric does with max and emp cure mass mod and serious (your gimping yourself going after dev 8 gear just to cast sure crit mass when cure serious works just fine and those slots be used for way better gear).... emp healing is a HUGE WASTE on clr or fvs (unless ur WF fvs then it might have a purpose to boost the HEAL spell but meh waste of feat to boost 1 spell....)

Now ill take my clr in most quest elite solo same with my FVS but my FVS will do it faster and harder then my clr ever could with 1/2 the gear.

[Visty]

emp healing is a HUGE WASTE on clr or fvs (unless ur WF fvs then it might have a purpose to boost the HEAL spell but meh waste of feat to boost 1 spell....)

that i wouldnt say, my offensive caster does quite fine with empower healing, +50% for +2sp is uber, though im specced for cc and instakills and not for bladebarrier and such

[Purgatory]

that i wouldnt say, my offensive caster does quite fine with empower healing, +50% for +2sp is uber, though im specced for cc and instakills and not for bladebarrier and such

your giving up a feat that would serve you better then Emp Healing ever will, Also giving up AP too when SP is not much of a issue with the gear that is out there. If your running out sp then your playing poorly or your in a pug raid you need to leave asap.

[Danmor]

... Why?


Because you "guess"?

For a pure healbot the cleric has advantages over the FvS. Those are the Turn Undead based enhancements and efficient metamagic enhancements for empower heal. Also the capstone helps to keep people alive.
Those are not available to the FvS.

I wrote "I guess" because I haven't bothered to do the calculations to compare a pure healbot FvS build to a pure healbot cleric build.
The reason I haven't bothered is that it would be insane to build a toon to be a pure healbot. With Life Magic enhancements and sup pot VI gear Empower/Empower Healing is not necessary in most fights thus removing the advantage of cheap empower heal over not-as-cheap empower. Also nobody wants to fill a spot in a party with a cleric/FvS that can do nothing but heal. In a decent group you don't need a pure healer. Instead some CC/Melee/Nuking is much more useful.

[Enochroot]

For a pure healbot the cleric has advantages over the FvS. Those are the Turn Undead based enhancements and efficient metamagic enhancements for empower heal. Also the capstone helps to keep people alive.
Those are not available to the FvS.

I wrote "I guess" because I haven't bothered to do the calculations to compare a pure healbot FvS build to a pure healbot cleric build.
The reason I haven't bothered is that it would be insane to build a toon to be a pure healbot. With Life Magic enhancements and sup pot VI gear Empower/Empower Healing is not necessary in most fights thus removing the advantage of cheap empower heal over not-as-cheap empower. Also nobody wants to fill a spot in a party with a cleric/FvS that can do nothing but heal. In a decent group you don't need a pure healer. Instead some CC/Melee/Nuking is much more useful.

Has the public school system never learned nobody how to compare two things?


It's like pulling nails out of my eyes.


Why?


Because a cleric has, x,y,z. And a fvs has ... and the difference is ...

[Razcar]

There is not better in this case- just different.

Not really. You could argue that with Wiz-Sorc, especially in light of the nice Wiz capstone and the number of arcane spells. But FvS is just more powerful than cleric, period. It costs TP or grind though, but that is its only drawback.

[Danmor]

Has the public school system never learned nobody how to compare two things?


It's like pulling nails out of my eyes.


Why?


Because a cleric has, x,y,z. And a fvs has ... and the difference is ...

Thanks for the nice and concise answer. Let me reply in kind.
Obviously the public school system hasn't taught us the difference between "teach" and "learn"...

Still, I'm not getting your point. I stated that both FvS and Cleric have their advantages, but I like playing my FvS over my cleric. Also I think that a pure healbot cleric would be better at it than a FvS (which is moot as nobody will want to do that). What exactly is it that you're trying to criticize here?

[Enochroot]

Thanks for the nice and concise answer. Let me reply in kind.
Obviously the public school system hasn't taught us the difference between "teach" and "learn"...

Still, I'm not getting your point. I stated that both FvS and Cleric have their advantages, but I like playing my FvS over my cleric. Also I think that a pure healbot cleric would be better at it than a FvS (which is moot as nobody will want to do that). What exactly is it that you're trying to criticize here?

You stated the cleric would be a better healbot, and I asked why. And you gave me the pro's of a healbot cleric, and nothing for a FvS. That's not how you compare something, or at least, that's not how I compare something. Although, it explains why we have all these builds that "max" fvs dps at the cost of unimaginable power. Why compare what you're giving up?


And clearly "learned nobody" was incorrect, sort of the point. Whatever, I'm done, my installer finished updating.