Replace Drow SR (and show Elves some love!)

[Hellmoob]

You may remove the images of hot, steamy Elf-love from your mind now. Really, stop it.

Past the first few levels of having the innate Drow SR, it fades into obsolescence rapidly. Ignoring their status as being 32pt without the extra investment, Drow are currently only the "best choice" for DC-focussed spellcasters who don't care about being squishy. Even then, there is an argument to be made for human (comes up 1 int short and has an extra feat, skill points, etc...) as well as Warforged.

Let's take a look at what the various races get to their advantage:

Halflings make great melee DPS (the best vs. low fort/high AC) and have fantastic saves. Warforged can be considered the best casters (self healing is VERY powerful) and even if one does not concede that, they have all kinds of nice immunities. Humans get one feat, two attrib points, healing amp, skillpoints, and the now-stackable versatility, making them a good choice for pretty much anything but a fighter-heavy build. Dwarves get the saves, the extra CON, the fighter bonuses, the dwarven axe.

Elves are pretty overlooked. They make the best FvS melee and their rapiers + rapier enhancements are nice as an alternative to the default khopesh + human for feat-starved TWF builds (especially in epic, where those two points of to-hit can be 10% of your damage). The advantage that they hold over Drow is freedom with those 4 extra stat points. There aren't many scenarios where I'd choose Elf and put points into both Int and Cha. Rogue I go int, dump cha. Pally/Bard I go cha, dump int. Ranger I dump both! Elves also get the 'Arcane Archer' PrE... Yes, I know, have a good laugh at ranged combat, but Turbine are actually making an effort with it now, in their floundering Turbine way.

Which leaves Drow. Their Faith-line Scorpion-thing and FvS capstone both suck fairly hard, in all honesty. I understand it, but without scaling for the pet it's pretty weak. Unyielding Sovreignty is always, always useful. As for the FvS capstone, bleh, I do not need to cast invis SP-free when I can carry a couple clickies for the very limited number of situations where I use it. Admittedly some of the other capstone spells are pretty questionable as well, but those other races generally have something else sweet going for them. DR15 for warforged, pinnacle melee for Elves.

When it comes to other classes, Drow is just so rarely the best choice when everything is factored in. So very rarely indeed. Anyway, enough whine and comparison. Solutions:

- Give Drow their proper innate SR, 11+Character Level, for free starting at first level.
- Replace the current SR line of enhancements with a way to improve the innate SR by say, 1/2/4 points. This would mean that the Divine buff Spell Resistance would be inferior to a Drow's standing SR. That in turn would mean, my God, it would actually be a useful trait!

I don't feel that's by any stretch an outlandish or unbalancing demand. In case you didn't notice, damaging spells don't even make an SR check in DDO, so you're probably still worse off than a Halfling or Dwarf in most situations.

Elves, well, Elves are trickier. You have to keep everything in line with PnP and how the Devs have expanded on PnP traits such as Halfling Luck and Dwarven Spell Defense to create their enhancement lines. Short of making AA good enough to avoid the universal loathing it now garners (yeah, don't hold your breath) there isn't much you can do for all the Elves. They should, however, have a drastically shortened search timer, since in PnP an Elf is entitled to a Search check for hidden stuff as if they were actively searching, when within 5 feet of said hidden stuff. I'd also advise rethinking their Capstone spell to something that would at least put them firmly at the head of the FvS-melee pile, something like free Divine Power casts.

Thanks for reading, and please feel free to throw in your own suggestions and flames as you like.

-Hellmoob-

[Steampunkie]

How about giving Elves free Ranged Alacrity? Maybe not anything super-fast, but... Y'know. Something to make them the best archers on the block?

-Rachel-

[Oran_Lathor]

/signed.

Long overdue, I think.

[Mithran]

As someone who plays elves/drow almost exclusively, I agree with the sentiment expressed by the OP. Drow GTWF/Evasion/Paladins are hard to beat in their flexibility for UMD/Intimidate, imo, but I agree that the extra Intelligence is mostly wasted.

Elves/drow have the sexiest butts, but they're deserving of some kind of buff from the developers. The lost Constitution is a very high price to pay.

[Angelus_dead]

How about giving Elves free Ranged Alacrity? Maybe not anything super-fast, but... Y'know. Something to make them the best archers on the block?

Elves already get enhancements which make them the most powerful archers.

[noinfo]

Drow and elves suffer from lack of dev love.

However as they are one of my favorite races its is always hard to ballance suggestions with game.

Improvements:

Lets look at the strengths and common traits of the race (I am by no means familiar with the drow or ebberon in
general in the rpg setting having played like many 20+ years in other settings)
SR, while when they were introduced it was way overpowered to have their full SR, this has changed, the suggestion
for the enhancements to take this even further is a reasonable one as it does not protect vs damage spells and
would provide only a small advatage at best over some classes.

2 Weapon fighting, Drow since their introduction in DnD have been known for their 2 Weapon fighting ability. My
first thought was to make the tempest prc available as a racial but nightmares of 20th level fighter capstoned
tempested kept me up at night :-)

My suggestion for this is to provide and alternate line for the rapier/shortsword similar to longsword/rapier and
Scimitar for elves as follows:

While weilding 2 weapons instead of a specific weapon drow can unlock the +2/+2 hit damage bonus. This would allow
drow to gain a bonus with any weapon while dual weilding.
As another enhancement line in ballance with the dwarf armour mastery, Drow may unlock a 2 weapon bonus to defense
(thinking +2 at the moment but may be higher) that is a shield bonus, this will then obviously not stack with
tempest defense or sheild wands, but would be very useful in non-ranger two weapon fighting builds.


Spell casting (not sure in Ebberon setting)

Female Drow are known for their powerful clerics, allowing the dwarven cleric sp range for them would not be OP.

Male Drow are known for their powerful wizards, allowing them wizard sp range for them would not be op (or consider
same for a sorc) HOWEVER to ballance the elves which are 2pts behind in int for the drow and make them more of the
favoured casters they should be given an enhancement line for subraces eg Grey Elves that instead of the +2 to dex
from enhancements could be +2 to int (I understand that normal Grey elves also get penalties to str and the racial
+2 to int but I believe this is a nice ballance and easier to implement. But more on elves in a latter post)

Spell-Like Abilities:

Drow can use the following spell-like abilities (1 per rest maybe with optional addtional uses):

dancing lights (Not really applicable in game)
darkness would see this as a variation of Glitterdust
faerie fire (negate blur/Displacement/Invis on 1 target)
levitate (in some cases) (blade barrier casting anmimation for 3 seconds head in the cloud buff)

A variation of the spell like abilites is to add a feat called Drow Noble which works along the lines of Dragon
mark feats opening up the use of the above powers

Finally weapon proficiencies
If there is every a more wasted feat than shuriken I am not sure what it is, this maybe a default feat for ebberon
drow but since day one of PnP drow have been known for hand crossbows, now since these are not in game it would be
nice perhaps to give proficiency in light repeater

Just thoughts/Suggestions

[Hellmoob]

I like the idea of the Drow bonuses to TWF, kinda like how WF get them for THF.

[noinfo]

I like the idea of the Drow bonuses to TWF, kinda like how WF get them for THF.

Would help give drow a much needed boost.

[Angelus_dead]

Here's an old suggestion to improve Drow enhancements: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=203380

Changes
Drow Melee Attack and Ranged Attack enhancements are merged into Drow Weapon Attack, for no additional AP cost.
Drow Melee Damage and Ranged Damage enhancements are merged into Drow Weapon Damage, for no additional AP cost.

Drow SR 1, level 2, 1 AP
You have SR 14, or level + 5, whichever is better.
Drow SR 2, level 6, 2 AP
You have SR 16, or level + 7, whichever is better.
Drow SR 3, level 10, 3 AP
You have SR level + 9.
Drow SR 4, level 14, 4 AP
You have SR level + 11.

White Scorpion Strike, level 4, req Drow Monk, 1 AP
Your unarmed attacks are ghost touch.
White Scorpion Strike 2, level 9, req White Scorpion Strike, 2 AP
Your unarmed attacks are lesser undeadbane.

In addition, note that it has been announced that someday Drow will be getting a race-restricted specialty enhancement to boost melee and stealth abilities.

[Hellmoob]

Here's an old suggestion to improve Drow enhancements: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=203380

In addition, note that it has been announced that someday Drow will be getting a race-restricted specialty enhancement to boost melee and stealth abilities.

10AP for SR marginally worse than a Cleric buff seems silly at best. Merging the melee/ranged isn't terrible but the fact is most people will only use one of them anyway (hopefully the melee one).

Good to know they will get a racial PrE, though. That's a bright spark of hope for 10 years from now when the PrEs are done.

[Angelus_dead]

10AP for SR marginally worse than a Cleric buff seems silly at best.

For an accurate evaluation, you'd compare it to the level 13 Monk feature. Remember what happens to the Cleric buff in the face of Greater Dispel Magic?

Currently if a Drow spends 10 AP he gets SR 20, while my suggestion would give him SR 31. That's an enormous upgrade, but giving it to him for free would be silly.

[vettkinn]

Elves/drow have the sexiest butts...

But I thought the dwarven ones were the best

[Hellmoob]

For an accurate evaluation, you'd compare it to the level 13 Monk feature. Remember what happens to the Cleric buff in the face of Greater Dispel Magic?

Currently if a Drow spends 10 AP he gets SR 20, while my suggestion would give him SR 31. That's an enormous upgrade, but giving it to him for free would be silly.

10AP for an incidental feature of the Monk class is still a big ask when you're also blowing 12 in racial weapon enhancements to try and keep up with a human khopesh user.

SR31 over SR20, yeah, it is a big upgrade numerically, but you have to consider the relative value: How often do you take a greater dispel, or how often can you be expected to make an SR check after resurrection but before you are rebuffed?

As a comparative example, a Halfling, for 6AP, can get +3 to reflex saves. Assuming that doesn't push him beyond the "fail on a 1" threshold for all content, that's a 15% better chance to mitigate 50 to 100% of the majority of direct and AoE damage spells in the game.

SR31 on the other hand, in the very few situations that you don't have Clerical SR buffed, gives a 15% chance to mitigate SR-check spells (when you get down to it, not that many that are in common usage) against a CR28 creature (Suulomades, as an example).

I didn't check the CR of the Beholders in Epic VoN3 the other day, but I'm betting it's high enough that even in that very specific situation (beholder debuffed) you're looking at a near negligible chance to ignore a low proportion of their abilities.

[Shassa]

/signed

And I know I've seen you around Khyber, Hellmoob, hello!

[Angelus_dead]

SR31 over SR20, yeah, it is a big upgrade numerically, but you have to consider the relative value: How often do you take a greater dispel, or how often can you be expected to make an SR check after resurrection but before you are rebuffed?

Yes, you do need to consider that, in addition to times when you just don't have a Cleric at all.

As a comparative example, a Halfling, for 6AP, can get +3 to reflex saves. Assuming that doesn't push him beyond the "fail on a 1" threshold for all content, that's a 15% better chance to mitigate 50 to 100% of the majority of direct and AoE damage spells in the game.

That is incorrect math. Many people get confused about when comparisons should be done with division instead of subtraction.

SR31 on the other hand, in the very few situations that you don't have Clerical SR buffed, gives a 15% chance to mitigate SR-check spells (when you get down to it, not that many that are in common usage) against a CR28 creature (Suulomades, as an example).

Are you trying to be funny?

I didn't check the CR of the Beholders in Epic VoN3 the other day, but I'm betting it's high enough that even in that very specific situation (beholder debuffed) you're looking at a near negligible chance to ignore a low proportion of their abilities.

Using Epic mode as a basis for balancing any player character options would be a huge mistake. It would produce results that are comically overpowered in all other content.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

2 Weapon fighting, Drow since their introduction in DnD have been known for their 2 Weapon fighting ability.

Only cause of that bastard Drizzt.

Spell casting (not sure in Ebberon setting)

There is no difference between male and female drow in Eberron.

Spell-Like Abilities:

Drow can use the following spell-like abilities (1 per rest maybe with optional addtional uses):

dancing lights (Not really applicable in game)
darkness would see this as a variation of Glitterdust
faerie fire (negate blur/Displacement/Invis on 1 target)

Could be nice to see.

If there is every a more wasted feat than shuriken I am not sure what it is, this maybe a default feat for ebberon

I've been told that the shuriken proficiency is instead of the boomerang proficiency that they (and some halflings) should have in the Eberron setting. The boomerangs aren't much better stat-wise anyway.

[Hellmoob]

Yes, you do need to consider that, in addition to times when you just don't have a Cleric at all.

Are these frequent for you? Or are you suggesting that it's usefulness when solo'ing is a justification for a 10AP investment?

That is incorrect math. Many people get confused about when comparisons should be done with division instead of subtraction.

Then, um, correct it? My reflex save increases by 3, from say 28 to 31, my chance to make a DC35 reflex save has improved by 15% (rolls of 4+ instead of rolls of 7+)

Are you trying to be funny?

If I were, I doubt you'd notice.

Using Epic mode as a basis for balancing any player character options would be a huge mistake. It would produce results that are comically overpowered in all other content.

Such as VoN Epic requiring a Search skill of 80+ to find traps, and thereby a pure trapbuilt character? The introduction of Epic content and Epic items inevitably leads to 'old' content becoming a joke in terms of difficulty for characters that have acquired those items. The time eventually comes to see Shroud/VoD/Hound as stepping stones to their epic counterparts.

But, just for laughs, when is an SR of -any- value "comically overpowered"?

There was no need to be snarky and confrontational, so I can only assume you're incapable of civil discussion and treat you as such.

[MrCow]

But, just for laughs, when is an SR of -any- value "comically overpowered"?

Korthos Island and The Harbor using a Scarab of Protection.

[Hellmoob]

Korthos Island and The Harbor using a Scarab of Protection.

Not that those are challeging to begin with, but the only thing that's coming straight to my mind that makes an SR check for Korthos and Harbor is the Hold Person spam from Kobold Shamans. In my experience (yeah, subjective, I know) the scorching ray / shocking grasp (or whichever lightning spell it is) cycling they go through, as well as Melf's Acid Arrow cause me far more grief than Hold.

[MrCow]

Not that those are challeging to begin with, but the only thing that's coming straight to my mind that makes an SR check for Korthos and Harbor is the Hold Person spam from Kobold Shamans. In my experience (yeah, subjective, I know) the scorching ray / shocking grasp (or whichever lightning spell it is) cycling they go through, as well as Melf's Acid Arrow cause me far more grief than Hold.

Half of those of those are not Kobold Shaman spells (they lack Melf's Acid Arrow and Shocking Grasp).

Normal:

• Cause Fear
• Acid Splash
• Magic Missile

Hard:

• Scorching Ray
• Hold Person
• Obscuring Mist

Elite:

• Lightning Bolt
• Hold Person
• Obscuring Mist
• Bestow Curse

I personally find the scarabs to be a huge boon against Command (Hobgoblin Cleric), Ray of Enfeeblement (Hobgoblin Witch Doctor), and Otto's Resistable Dance (Hobgoblin Witch Doctor).