Please help me build an Elven Cleric

[Skaldrom]

I have played an elven cleric up to lvl 10 and I have learned a lot, but I am far from having a real clue. My playstyle is 75% solo (with hirelings) and 25% with PUGs. With lesser reincarnation on the horizon, I hope to ungimp him a bit. The +4 tome may be a bit optimistic, but if the Turbine continues the way they do, these may be available in the store till then...

Here is my build plan:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.18
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Vanilla Cleric
Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Male
(20 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 302
Spell Points: 1815 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 8
Will: 22

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             12                    16
Dexterity            10                    14
Constitution         14                    18
Intelligence          8                    12
Wisdom               18                    30
Charisma             10                    14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               0                    11
Bluff                 0                     2
Concentration         6                    27
Diplomacy             0                     2
Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
Haggle                0                     2
Heal                  4                    10
Hide                  0                     2
Intimidate            0                     2
Jump                  1                     3
Listen                4                    12
Move Silently         0                     2
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                     1
Search               -1                     3
Spot                  4                    12
Swim                  1                     3
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality III


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing II


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery III


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery IV


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Intervention

I was wondering especially about:

• Unyielding Sovereignty (longsword, healing, long timer) vs Divine Cleansing (can heal curses).
• Maximize Spell vs Empower Spell

What is the better choice?

I would be very glad if you could critisize this build and tell me where I am wrong. Thank you very much in advance.

Edit: Empower, not Enlarge spell and links.

[Visty]

to answer your question we have to know some basic thing:
what to you intend to do with that char?

[Skaldrom]

I would like to be a valuable member in parties (healing and casting) but I would also like to "solo" quests (with hirelings) that are 2 to 3 levels below the current level of the characters.

Does that make sense or can I give more information?

[Visty]

now theres one more question to answer:
what kind of casting?
damage casting or crowdcontrol/instakills?

[Skaldrom]

To be honest, I have no clue, thank you very much for bearing with me .
I think for soloing the CC is more helpful, but I might be wrong. What changes in a build for these? Is more spell penetration needed for instakills?

[Visty]

if you want to use cc/instakills then you will need spellpen, greater spellpen and heighten as feats
for the damage way you want quicken, maximise and empower
(enlarge, as you asked in your op, is not needed at all)

[Anneliese]

It might sound fishy, but later on, often the best solo tactic with damage spells is an Emp/Max/Heighten/Ext/Quickened Bladebarrier (5 of 7 feats).

If you dont want the capstone, you could add 2 monk levels (toughness and another feat) and then take spell pen and greater spell pen. DC would be in the best case 1 higher than pure (water stance) and the spell pen would be the same because you probably wont be able to fit in both spell pen feats otherwise.

You have less sp then tho - but evasion and the extra AC could be quite useful when soloing.

[Skaldrom]

Thank you very much again.

The damage-way sounds easier to play. I think I need to learn a lot and will stay pure until I have a better feeling of how to play a cleric and the game mechanics.

So I sacrifice "Empower Healing" for "Empower Spell" and may be able to reassign some Action Points in Spell-Penetration enhancements and have 4 of the Emp/Max/Heighten/Ext/Quickened. Or would any of the "(Mental) Toughness" series be a better candidate to get rid off? Is Heighten absolutely needed?

[Anneliese]

Heighten is nice at higher levels because it will make your lower level spells as difficult to resist as the highest level spell you can cast - examples for this are banishment (the mass version), greater command, destruction(for far away enemies) and BladeBarrier - you can probably delay this feat until level 18, since many offensive spells are of high level anyway (except for command, which is 1, but gets replaced by grtr command later on).

While Mental Toughness is nice, I would not recommend it for a solo cleric - 105sp extra at level 20 is nice, but landing spells in crucial situations is more important for a solo char.

[Skaldrom]

Thank you all for the feedback. I have changed the following things:
- Removed the feat Empower Healing Spell for Empower Spell.
- Removed the Improved Empower Healing enhancements and added Improved Spell Penetration

I could not let go Improved Mental Toughness yet . I think I will exchange it with Heighten Spell when I reach high levels by Fred.

Do you think this Cleric is playable like this? I think my main problem will be traps.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.18
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Vanilla Elven Cleric 2.0
Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Male
(20 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 302
Spell Points: 1815 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 8
Will: 22

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             12                    16
Dexterity            10                    14
Constitution         14                    18
Intelligence          8                    12
Wisdom               18                    30
Charisma             10                    14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               0                    11
Bluff                 0                     2
Concentration         6                    27
Diplomacy             0                     2
Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
Haggle                0                     2
Heal                  4                    10
Hide                  0                     2
Intimidate            0                     2
Jump                  1                     3
Listen                4                    12
Move Silently         0                     2
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                     1
Search               -1                     3
Spot                  4                    12
Swim                  1                     3
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality III


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery III


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery IV


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Intervention

[Slink]

Looks like a typical cleric build to me.
Why bother with concentration if youre going to take quicken?
Youre also missing on one of your greatest assets, diplomacy.
Sheds agro immediately in a pinch.

This will probably be an easy character to play but will be lacking on the spell pool count with so many metas running.
Overkill on your bluebar with 0 specialization.
Other feat choices will give alot more bang for the buck without taking a huge toll on your mana.
Anything beyond maximize and extend are simply not neccesary (especially your concentration skill+quicken.)
Spell pen feats/enhancements will be needed towards endgame if you wish to use some of your higher level spells effectively.

Why turns tho?
DV is useless.
Divine Intervention is on a huge cooldown timer.

[Skaldrom]

Thanks Slink for the link to Jyliste and thank you all, I had an enlightment .

Now I know why all those builds are so different and why discussions about one feat or enhancement, disregarding the rest of the build, are pointless for a cleric.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/56016 and http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...53&postcount=2 were very valuable.

a) Spell Resistance does not matter for most AOE damage spells as blade barrier (Spell Resistance: No in the description), only for others like InstaKill. Lots of monsters do not have spell resistance, except in the endgame of what I've heard.
If a spell overcomes the resistance is determined as follows:

D20 + Caster level + Spell Penetration Feats + Spell Penetration Enhancements + Items (do not stack) >= SR (Target)

b) Then, the target saves (matters for all spells with a save):
10 + Spell level + Ability modifier of the primary ability score + bonuses due to feats + Spell Focus Items >= Save + D20 (Target)

All the Spell-Pen Enhancements affect a), but not b).
For "damage only", just b) is interesting. There are Spell Focus feats, which give you +1 (which is really not much, usually <4% of the spells save DC I think). The Heighten Feat costs more, but can give you more, because the spell is cast on the highest level you got.

So it depends on the playstyle what is more important. I thik you knew all of this, but for me it's new and exciting ... I will do a new build with this knowledge soon.