Kensai question

[MrWizard]

Okay, thinking of making one and going over all the enhancements, etc..

I heard they were very powerful DPS and I have some questions as I think I am missing something.

If I go and get all 3 enhancements, this is what I see as bonuses (other feats and enhancements I can get without using kensai, so those are not added).

+3 bluff, concentration, diplomacy, intimidate
+3 reflex save versus magical effects
+3 combat feat DCs
+3 action boosts per day

Nothing to do with damage except the extra boosts which is good, depending on the boosts I imagine.

Kensai Mastery gives me...
(dwarven axe is the signature weapon)

+2 bonus to hit and damage on dwarven axe ONLY
+4 to confirm criticals and damage on crit on dwarven axe ONLY
+1 critical threat range on dwarven axe ONLY


So total damage output is +2, +6 on a crit before multipliers.

Add to that my 'surge' of +8 to strength, giving me +4 to damage..

So I get +6 damage, +10 on crits.

I get an extra threat range which increases my crits...


so on a x3 weapon I am getting +30 extra damage on a crit.
(not counting Power attack, weapon focus, stun, trip, etc as that is something you can get without it)...


What am I missing to get that 'big' number. I hear barbs and such getting 500 to 800 point crits. I hear of kensai getting 300 point crits.

All I can see is a whopping +30 to what I normally do....and that is ONLY on my signature weapon. Which means I will be around a walloping 150 or so on a crit...and ONLY with that one weapon.
How in the heck do you get 300+ crits with one fighter swing?


I give, what am I missing on this PrE?

[Ulf]

First off for barbs going frenzied berserker, they can add 3 to crit multiplier (on 19 or 20 roll) so a great axe for instance could have a x6 multiplier, not to mention the x2 PA and x1.5 str for THF. So FB can get alot higher on a single crit. with a THW.

Now for kensai, the PrE specfic damage enhancements are what you listed. But you also left out other enhancements every kensai will also have, but are not exclusive to kensai.
Weapon specialization feats (+4 dmg, also they are req'd for kensai)
Ftr weap spec enhancements (+2 dmg, not req'd but 99.99% kensai will take)
Improved crit feat (double base crit rng of weap type, not req'd but 99.99% kensai will take)
Power Attack (+5 dmg / -5 to hit, WF can take enh to make +8/-8, not req'd but 99.99% kensai will take)
Racial (ex. +2 axe dmg dwarf)
So before buffs, str mods, weap mods; the avg kensai is getting +19/20 dmg (non crit)

Now a typical kensai will have mid to upper 30s str (unbuffed), add in rages (madstone, spell, pots) and surge, str will be in 50s typically (20-25 to base dmg). Also, buffs from bard, cleric/FvS can add 10 or so to base dmg. GS weaps are +5, so a reasonable raid setup dmg mod of 55-60 (non crit) is reasonable. Add in Weap dmg (your D Axe is 2d8 or 9 avg), you get base dmg 60-70.
With a x3 crit the weap dmg can then be low 200s, then finally add in weap effects (ex. min II = holy + acid blast + acid burst) and +1 alchem.

So, you can get crit dmg approaching 300 from a single handed weap (higher for hvy pick with x4 crit multi). However, this is somewhat misleading beacuse it includes all buffs and weap effects.

Hope that clears it up a bit for ya.

[Cetus]

My kensai crit for 321 with a level 20 warchanter- front number. Max dps fighter can pull that kind of number.

Also understand that a barbarians crits that are below a natural 19 or 20, as far as I know, don't have the increased multiplier applied. So if you swing something like an epic SoS or epic Xuum- fighter will do more damage on any crit below a 19 than a barbarian (plus kensai crits on a 14 as opposed to a barb who will on a 15), of course on the 19 or 20 the barb will take apart anything it touches.

[MrWizard]

First off for barbs going frenzied berserker, they can add 3 to crit multiplier (on 19 or 20 roll) so a great axe for instance could have a x6 multiplier, not to mention the x2 PA and x1.5 str for THF. So FB can get alot higher on a single crit. with a THW.

Now for kensai, the PrE specfic damage enhancements are what you listed. But you also left out other enhancements every kensai will also have, but are not exclusive to kensai.
Weapon specialization feats (+4 dmg, also they are req'd for kensai)
Ftr weap spec enhancements (+2 dmg, not req'd but 99.99% kensai will take)
Improved crit feat (double base crit rng of weap type, not req'd but 99.99% kensai will take)
Power Attack (+5 dmg / -5 to hit, WF can take enh to make +8/-8, not req'd but 99.99% kensai will take)
Racial (ex. +2 axe dmg dwarf)
So before buffs, str mods, weap mods; the avg kensai is getting +19/20 dmg (non crit)

Now a typical kensai will have mid to upper 30s str (unbuffed), add in rages (madstone, spell, pots) and surge, str will be in 50s typically (20-25 to base dmg). Also, buffs from bard, cleric/FvS can add 10 or so to base dmg. GS weaps are +5, so a reasonable raid setup dmg mod of 55-60 (non crit) is reasonable. Add in Weap dmg (your D Axe is 2d8 or 9 avg), you get base dmg 60-70.
With a x3 crit the weap dmg can then be low 200s, then finally add in weap effects (ex. min II = holy + acid blast + acid burst) and +1 alchem.

So, you can get crit dmg approaching 300 from a single handed weap (higher for hvy pick with x4 crit multi). However, this is somewhat misleading beacuse it includes all buffs and weap effects.

Hope that clears it up a bit for ya.

Unfortunately, yes. I was hoping for some benefit I missed.
So the difference (single swing, damage wise) between stalwart and kensai is basically the 10 extra damage before multipliers when critting and the other non damage bonuses....and that is about it. (6 for non crit or high Fort boss)
And a stalwart gets about 7 extra AC that a kensai cannot get.

So a stalwart could get all the same feats, bonuses, and everything else (damage wise) and be about 30 points less on a crit.

yeesh.

Ya, I know, damage over time.

NO kensai build i could find ever broke down their damage...they just said they were high dps....

I think I am gonna spec my stalwart with some extra damage feats.
I think I am gonna build a kensai to be high AC.

and def gonna make a 2hf barb soon too...


come on reincarnation.

[MrWizard]

My kensai crit for 321 with a level 20 warchanter- front number. Max dps fighter can pull that kind of number.

Also understand that a barbarians crits that are below a natural 19 or 20, as far as I know, don't have the increased multiplier applied. So if you swing something like an epic SoS or epic Xuum- fighter will do more damage on any crit below a 19 than a barbarian (plus kensai crits on a 14 as opposed to a barb who will on a 15), of course on the 19 or 20 the barb will take apart anything it touches.

what is your average front number non crit?
What is your average range on a normal crit without all the buffs and stuff?

[Ulf]

Unfortunately, yes. I was hoping for some benefit I missed.
So the difference (single swing, damage wise) between stalwart and kensai is basically the 10 extra damage before multipliers when critting and the other non damage bonuses....and that is about it. (6 for non crit or high Fort boss)
And a stalwart gets about 7 extra AC that a kensai cannot get.

So a stalwart could get all the same feats, bonuses, and everything else (damage wise) and be about 30 points less on a crit.

yeesh.

Ya, I know, damage over time.

NO kensai build i could find ever broke down their damage...they just said they were high dps....

I think I am gonna spec my stalwart with some extra damage feats.
I think I am gonna build a kensai to be high AC.

and def gonna make a 2hf barb soon too...


come on reincarnation.

Just a warning, the single swing numbers can be very misleading. Espically comparing S&B v THF v TWF. Right now dps wise TWF>THF>>>S&B.

Not to mention the 6 (non-crti) 30 (crit) difference of kensai v stalwart is avg 9.3 dmg per swing or roughly 15% more damage.

This is of course neglecting the to Hit and confirm critical bonuses a kensai would have. For low difficulty content (norm-med) there will be no difference in hit %. But at higher level content (elite-epic) the to Hit will matter. And you will definetly see a difference, think of it this way. To keep the same hit % a stalwart would have to say, turn off power attack. Thus the damage per swing difference would be 11+ (non crit) 40+ (crit) or avg 15+ higher damage per swing for kensai.

[MrWizard]

Just a warning, the single swing numbers can be very misleading. Espically comparing S&B v THF v TWF. Right now dps wise TWF>THF>>>S&B.

Not to mention the 6 (non-crti) 30 (crit) difference of kensai v stalwart is avg 9.3 dmg per swing or roughly 15% more damage.

This is of course neglecting the to Hit and confirm critical bonuses a kensai would have. For low difficulty content (norm-med) there will be no difference in hit %. But at higher level content (elite-epic) the to Hit will matter. And you will definetly see a difference, think of it this way. To keep the same hit % a stalwart would have to say, turn off power attack. Thus the damage per swing difference would be 11+ (non crit) 40+ (crit) or avg 15+ higher damage per swing for kensai.

I know damage over time is an incremental thing and every little helps...but when someone is doing one swing for 800 points...well, that would be a great thing to do with a s&b...

I think I got the stalwart realistically up to around 200 on a perfect crit on one swing, a bit less with second weapon should I go duel. That is about as good as I can get it on a normal buff setting and probably higher on some kind of uber buff.

I think that will be good enough for the stalwart....for the kensai I am building obviously it will be incrementally higher on one swing..but damage over time adds up.

Just wanted my fighter to be up there in that DPS thread that shows over 30 builds critting more than 500 with just one swing.

[Slink]

Just wanted my fighter to be up there in that DPS thread that shows over 30 builds critting more than 500 with just one swing.

Great they get one huge number per encounter.

This game is all about trade offs.

They might get a 500 crit but usually it only happens every 20+swings because of the poor crit range.

Have a TWF 28 pt build elf kensai 2 atm and she has no issues keeping up with the TR WF barb swinging a greatsword/greataxe.

She doesnt hit for 500, true.
She hits for about 110 base damage on a crit using scimmies. (before elemental/alignment)
She crits just about every 3rd swing though.
When she gets K3 it will become even more frequent.

If youre going to stay TWF kensai on a dwarf switch to khopesh or something.
Dwarf axes have a lousy crit range which leaves alot to be desired.
If you just want a huge number once in a blue moon make a frenzy barb Dwarf/WF using two handers.

[Ulf]

If youre going to stay TWF kensai on a dwarf switch to khopesh or something.
Dwarf axes have a lousy crit range which leaves alot to be desired.
If you just want a huge number once in a blue moon make a frenzy barb Dwarf/WF using two handers.

kopesh on dwarf is a bad idea. Dwarf gets D Axe for free and has racials to enhance damage and to Hit with axes.

Also, 10% rate is not "once in a blue moon", that's rate for FB to get 500+ crits with two-hander. And WF with their PA enhancements will give higher than dwarf, since PA with two hander is +6 damage.

[The_Phenx]

I commonly see 150-180 per crit (base) with kopeshs. add in all the burst/blast damage that occurs 20% of the time... with the twf speed the 10% alacrity from the capstone... the 30% boost I get 10 clicks of the +8 str I get 10 min of...

You have to remember... that kopesh is 16-20 and every time they crit your getting the extra 8d6 dmaage from shroud weaps 18 from bloodstones +12 from power surge...you get the idea.

Facing off me on one side of horoth... and a frenzy on the other. He was main tank I was off. He had a 10% lead in damage before I even stepped on the playing field. Figured I was safe to use my boosts.

Nope.

Pulled aggro when Horoth was ~1% of life left... I believe his exact words were hey how the h*** did you pull...???

So from then on.. I go in gimp... no pa... no boosts...no power surge... so we don't have an issue.

Kensai do great dps... just not the single occurence HUGE numbers.

Besides a frenzy needs a pocket cleric. A Kensai can be built to be VERY self sufficient.

[Emili]

kopesh on dwarf is a bad idea. Dwarf gets D Axe for free and has racials to enhance damage and to Hit with axes.

Also, 10% rate is not "once in a blue moon", that's rate for FB to get 500+ crits with two-hander. And WF with their PA enhancements will give higher than dwarf, since PA with two hander is +6 damage.

Dwaves with Khopeshes do generally out dps those with Dwarven axes... I can take a twf dwarf - which is totally spec'd for dwarf axes even kensai'd for them - with a couple of dwarf axes go beat on a scrag (no fire or acid so not to kill it) for two minutes ... then the same dwarf with two similar Khopeshes and the Khopeshes combat log will add up to more damage over that same two minutes time - plain and simple.

This is due to high str base combined with threat range making the difference over time... (16-20)x3 25% crits vs (18-20)x3 15%... precisely 1/4 of all swings taken with a khopesh produce a crit inclusive of str mod plus seeker, in practice it feels like 6 extra attacks in 20 swings then topped off with crit weapons procs for 10%. Even GS with min II's where the GS khopesh is but base 5.5 average and the GS is 10.5 average the GS min II Khopesh wins agains all things critable... Now against high fort mob... the Dwarf axe wins, but even here must be above medium or better.

Then elf... the rapiers and scimitars on elves are not very far behind the khopesh believe it or not... the 10% wider feels like 2 swings behind the khopesh...

Stunned... stunning blow when landed means everything is a crit... here the axe wins

Barbs... frenzed dps is extreme when coupled with a good two hander, you cannot be a run of the mill stand and swing with it to make it work DPS miricles though - THF Bards need to be twitching to get the number of attacks in a twf get... otherwise even those 500-600 crits become overshadowed by the whirly bladed twf kensai or ranger as there is another thing people forget about when talking dps - the s stands for seconds - that is time attacks over time mean a heck of a lot... a capstoned twf kensai when under a 35% 20 sec haste boost is sporting 3.25 attacks a second.

i.e. I've seen in plenty of ToD when we sent some extremely buffed 70+ str frenzied WF in to Horoth and I hop on the tail but because that WF is bloody lullin' along taking his third attack sequence and there I am little ole me twf kensai'd and 35% boostin' and also buffed up will suddenly rip the agro from that WF within seconds because I was not careful, this has happened a few times.

Now comming back to the OP's actual questions ... personally while kensai is nice I still feel it is somewhat short changed compared to other melee class PrE's the reason? Steep in feat and steep in AP and Kensai III does not lend air to the likes of payoff that Frenzied III nor KOTC III does in scope... not that fighter's are behind but the synergies of the barb PrE and Pally PrE serve to enhance the class more then any of the Fighter's PrE's do. This is an average buffed up human kensai III about to fight the raid boss... WF or Halfling would do some better. The number does not include the bloodston nor tharns it's wearing but you can begin see where on the tail of Horoth crits will add up to some sum, sometimes I back off PA or swap bloodstone out (especially when someone else is damage tanking VoD)

What I tellin' be the best part of Kensai seems lay at tier II... the best part of the other PrE's mentioned actually reside at III. i.e. There is no doubt in my mind for a twf kensai Kensai II/Tempest I/Barb 2 in any race is a better Kensai - more dps/ac/dr/saves (more robust melee) then Kensai then III... while I cannot say the same for Pure Pally Kotc III or Pure Barb Frenzy III - those are definately top of thier ilk.

[Kawiki]

i.e. I've seen in plenty of ToD when we sent some extremely buffed 70+ str frenzied WF in to Horoth and I hop on the tail but because that WF is bloody lullin' along taking his third attack sequence and there I am little ole me twf kensai'd and 35% boostin' and also buffed up will suddenly rip the agro from that WF within seconds because I was not careful, this has happened a few times.

Yeah, I've gotten to the point of self gimping myself when a THF is the main tank on Horoth just so I don't pull agro on my Tempest/Kensai or ranger. I take off my bloodstone, turn off power attack, don't haste boost or kensai boost.

To whoever asked and confirming what Emili said:

Khopesh is still king.

Rapier/Scimi does equal damage to a khopesh in the hands of a Elf. Only listed second because it falls behind on held/auto crit mobs, but then does it really matter?

DA's lag behind the top 2 unless v. high fort mob then starts to pull ahead (how many high fort mobs are there...)

THF Is best left to a Frenzied extremly high STR barb that can twich.

[Quikster]

what is your average front number non crit?
What is your average range on a normal crit without all the buffs and stuff?

My 12/6/2 wf'd crits as high as 242 with a khopesh and most buffs, and can reach the 80 ac mark with CE on (which obviously results in less damage)

[Ulf]

Dwaves with Khopeshes do generally out dps those with Dwarven axes... I can take a twf dwarf - which is totally spec'd for dwarf axes even kensai'd for them - with a couple of dwarf axes go beat on a scrag (no fire or acid so not to kill it) for two minutes ... then the same dwarf with two similar Khopeshes and the Khopeshes combat log will add up to more damage over that same two minutes time - plain and simple.

This is due to high str base combined with threat range making the difference over time... (16-20)x3 25% crits vs (18-20)x3 15%... precisely 1/4 of all swings taken with a khopesh produce a crit inclusive of str mod plus seeker, in practice it feels like 6 extra attacks in 20 swings then topped off with crit weapons procs for 10%. Even GS with min II's where the GS khopesh is but base 5.5 average and the GS is 10.5 average the GS min II Khopesh wins agains all things critable... Now against high fort mob... the Dwarf axe wins, but even here must be above medium or better.

Then elf... the rapiers and scimitars on elves are not very far behind the khopesh believe it or not... the 10% wider feels like 2 swings behind the khopesh...

Stunned... stunning blow when landed means everything is a crit... here the axe wins

Barbs... frenzed dps is extreme when coupled with a good two hander, you cannot be a run of the mill stand and swing with it to make it work DPS miricles though - THF Bards need to be twitching to get the number of attacks in a twf get... otherwise even those 500-600 crits become overshadowed by the whirly bladed twf kensai or ranger as there is another thing people forget about when talking dps - the s stands for seconds - that is time attacks over time mean a heck of a lot... a capstoned twf kensai when under a 35% 20 sec haste boost is sporting 3.25 attacks a second.

i.e. I've seen in plenty of ToD when we sent some extremely buffed 70+ str frenzied WF in to Horoth and I hop on the tail but because that WF is bloody lullin' along taking his third attack sequence and there I am little ole me twf kensai'd and 35% boostin' and also buffed up will suddenly rip the agro from that WF within seconds because I was not careful, this has happened a few times.

First, dwarf with kopesh will only out perform dps wise when they have high damage mod and they never miss and mob has no fort. Reality is if maxing buffs and gear to get high damage mod they are going to be running high end content which means misses and fort --> DAxe will do more damage. Not to mention its free for a dwarf.

Second, TWF with max dps requires 4 boosts per minute. Not sustainable, one rage can outlast all of fighters boosts.

Third, barb get 10% 500+crit, they still get 300+ crit on another 10%. that is not "once in a blue moon", never said it happens with same rate as TWF. As a matter of fact I actually pointed out TWF is for most part > THF. But gave actual fact that THF crit is not some super rare occurence.

[jeremyt]

well, going for non-optimal build right now with kensei THF WF. bummer to hear my route is subpar, might eyeball going barb next time. my newb question is I keep hearing "twitch" fighting with two hander. what does it take to twitch? does that mean just twitching left and right while standing in front of a mob to get the movement animation which is faster or something? if THF needs to twitch, is spring attack needed?

[Emili]

well, going for non-optimal build right now with kensei THF WF. bummer to hear my route is subpar, might eyeball going barb next time. my newb question is I keep hearing "twitch" fighting with two hander. what does it take to twitch? does that mean just twitching left and right while standing in front of a mob to get the movement animation which is faster or something? if THF needs to twitch, is spring attack needed?

Barbs are a lot of fun, however fighters are still just as much fun... I run my berzerker and she's a brute ... I run my kensai she's very quick and while not so sturdy is surprisingly resiliant in other options. Playing Barb is very much one dimensional you rage, rage, rage stacking them up... you live to rage for your str, con, DR, will etc... Fighter you still rage spell/pot but then decide am going to madstone? am going to hezru? Obviously I avoid such things on the judge... I've plenty of melee in differening classes yet in group - the fighter - becomes more of a quick decision and thinking melee class believe it or not...

It is not so cut and dry ... in practice what is design on paper becomes less so perfect in reality Enjoy your fighter play it and play it well... my personal view? Why choose roll both.

Twitching is just moving enough to break the attack sequence before the third sequence occurs (the third seq slows down your attacking)... it is timing side stepping, no SA id not needed as it is not far enough movement to drop your to-hit.

[Vengenance]

Like others have said, playing a Barb is pretty one dimensional and somewhat boring, although they do put up some big numbers DPS wise. Barbs are feat starved so pretty much all barbs look alike, either all the TWF feats or THF feats plus IC, PA, Cleave and Toughness.

Fighters have a ton of extra feats that allow them many different paths (tactics, AC, DPS, combination of all, etc.). Personally I enjoy playing my WF TWF Kensai much more then playing my WF TWF Barb. The Barb does more DPS, but takes a ton more damage and is pretty one dimensional to play. My fighter trips, stuns, goes into DPS mode or turtle up when the time is necessary.

[MrWizard]

[COLOR="Plum"]

i.e. I've seen in plenty of ToD when we sent some extremely buffed 70+ str frenzied WF in to Horoth and I hop on the tail but because that WF is bloody lullin' along taking his third attack sequence and there I am little ole me twf kensai'd and 35% boostin' and also buffed up will suddenly rip the agro from that WF within seconds because I was not careful, this has happened a few times.

The number does not include the bloodston nor tharns it's wearing but you can begin see where on the tail of Horoth crits will add up to some sum, sometimes I back off PA or swap bloodstone out (especially when someone else is damage tanking VoD)

not to derail my own thread, but as a stalwart intim, I find I love tanking both those guys for a few reasons.
1) except for an occaisional disintegrate in ToD (roll a 1) I take little to no damage in a shield block/intim mode, and you could wand cure me in VoD.
2) the intim holds no matter how much damage someone does, so this allows the DPS to really open up and beat them down quick.
3) makes me feel needed.....

lol

[Emili]

not to derail my own thread, but as a stalwart intim, I find I love tanking both those guys for a few reasons.
1) except for an occaisional disintegrate in ToD (roll a 1) I take little to no damage in a shield block/intim mode, and you could wand cure me in VoD.
2) the intim holds no matter how much damage someone does, so this allows the DPS to really open up and beat them down quick.
3) makes me feel needed.....

lol

I could actually flip my kensai into an intimitank without a lot of fussin' she's still on her CE and ended up picking up improved trip currently ... drop a feat or so to pick up stalwart reinforce intimidate (which she maxed ranks) and she'd be back to pure tanking - she was a SnB tank very long time ago... rerolled when 32 pointers came out with 1750 favor I built her the same ony max'd str... Unfortunately I dislike grinding the AC items out... pain in the arse.