Arcane Spell Casters - The Red-headed stepchild of DDO

[Aspenor]

In light of the release of the Epic SoS and the recent "nerf wall of fire" threads, I decided to post this.

Epic upgrades for spell casters (with the notable exception of the Epic SSR) have been nothing less than (for lack of a better word) pathetic. Superior Lightning Lore on a cloak? Minor Spell Penetration IX? Greater Necro/Enchant focus? Consider me unimpressed.

Compare this to Epic Xuum or Epic SoS, which in the latter case has somewhere around a 20% higher DPS (just an approximation, go ahead and correct me if you want) than non-epics.

Also, let us compare caster PrE's to others. So far all we have is Pale Master, which in its current nerfed-to-oblivion form is a joke compared to Kensei and Frenzied Bezerker.

Turbine, you need to firstly fix Pale Master. Secondly, we need to see some comparable PrE options to other classes. Thirdly, from what I am seeing with epic items there needs to be something useful implemented besides the Epic SSR.

In light of the currently released Epic SoS, I actually am in favor of deleting the "nerf wall of fire" threads completely and going all in with elemental substitution. A 20th level caster is supposed to be able to shape reality to his whims. While I'm not expecting quite that much power, give us something to do besides use level 3 spells to haste and displace the rest of the party as an optimal tactic.

[Angelus_dead]

Compare this to Epic Xuum or Epic SoS, which in the latter case has somewhere around a 20% higher DPS (just an approximation, go ahead and correct me if you want) than non-epics.

In terms of Epic gear, it seems casters are in better shape than finesse builds. Oh, maybe Weapon Finesse isn't an approved character choice anymore...

Finessable epics: Sting, Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger, Flint, Zephyr, Greenblade, and Bejeweled Letter Opener. That's all, right? Epic Sting is inferior to something with Wounding and Puncturing, while the others are inferior to tier 2 greensteel.

[Aspenor]

In terms of Epic gear, it seems casters are in better shape than finesse builds. Oh, maybe Weapon Finesse isn't an approved character choice anymore...

This reminds me of a post I made a long time ago: "Remove Weapon Finesse as a Selectable Feat." That one went over well.

[Aesop]

Removing Weapon Finesse is fine as long as the Higher Stat of Dex or Strength is used to determine the Attack Bonus on Finessable Weapons.

It at worst opens up a Feat Slot


oh and yeah Casters feel meh if not bleh at high levels... odd no?

Aesop

[Aspenor]

oh and yeah Casters feel meh if not bleh at high levels... odd no?

Exactly. What do we have for good CC at level 20? Web. Level 2. Ridiculous. Also, hello Heroic Surge.

I'm not looking to be able to do what a 20 PnP caster can do (I cast Shapechange, I win). Turbine seems scared to give casters anything decent in fear of making them overpowered. What they seem not to understand is that we don't have any of the overpowered spells in DDO. The things that are overpowered are anything from the Polymorph line, and the "no save, you die" spells.

[Draccus]

In terms of Epic gear, it seems casters are in better shape than finesse builds. Oh, maybe Weapon Finesse isn't an approved character choice anymore...

Finessable epics: Sting, Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger, Flint, Zephyr, Greenblade, and Bejeweled Letter Opener. That's all, right? Epic Sting is inferior to something with Wounding and Puncturing, while the others are inferior to tier 2 greensteel.

This.

Epic SoS > Epic Caster >>>>>>>>>>> Anything finessed.

I guess being the only class soloing Epic desert quests is the Arcane Caster's burden.

[Junts]

This.

Epic SoS > Epic Caster >>>>>>>>>>> Anything finessed.

I guess being the only class soloing Epic desert quests is the Arcane Caster's burden.

Its almost always the case that if something is particularly hard to solo, it is probably only soloable by arcane or divine casters. There's a really limited number of quests on the 'only melee can solo it' list, primarily because melee have so few methods to deal out AoE damage. Most melee builds are also particularly badly built for soloing. High ac builds do it very, very well, but less and less people build them.

[Krag]

Its almost always the case that if something is particularly hard to solo, it is probably only soloable by arcane or divine casters. There's a really limited number of quests on the 'only melee can solo it' list, primarily because melee have so few methods to deal out AoE damage. Most melee builds are also particularly badly built for soloing. High ac builds do it very, very well, but less and less people build them.

The real problem of all melee is damage mitigation and self-healing.
Caster can kite any melee mob taking as good as zero damage AND they can heal without relying on a stupid hireling.

[Razcar]

In terms of Epic gear, it seems casters are in better shape than finesse builds. Oh, maybe Weapon Finesse isn't an approved character choice anymore...

Finessable epics: Sting, Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger, Flint, Zephyr, Greenblade, and Bejeweled Letter Opener. That's all, right? Epic Sting is inferior to something with Wounding and Puncturing, while the others are inferior to tier 2 greensteel.

The named loot has been the weakest part in DDO development for some time in my opinion, with quest art and quest writing being the strongest. From frequent misspellings in the lacklustre flavour texts (or the "fun" ones on the Mod 8 loot when that came out, most were added to after player complaints however Icy Rainment still talks about "banishing"), strange choices in effects, and very one-sided offers (like the OP says).

[Junts]

In light of the release of the Epic SoS and the recent "nerf wall of fire" threads, I decided to post this.

Epic upgrades for spell casters (with the notable exception of the Epic SSR) have been nothing less than (for lack of a better word) pathetic. Superior Lightning Lore on a cloak? Minor Spell Penetration IX? Greater Necro/Enchant focus? Consider me unimpressed.

Compare this to Epic Xuum or Epic SoS, which in the latter case has somewhere around a 20% higher DPS (just an approximation, go ahead and correct me if you want) than non-epics.

Also, let us compare caster PrE's to others. So far all we have is Pale Master, which in its current nerfed-to-oblivion form is a joke compared to Kensei and Frenzied Bezerker.

Turbine, you need to firstly fix Pale Master. Secondly, we need to see some comparable PrE options to other classes. Thirdly, from what I am seeing with epic items there needs to be something useful implemented besides the Epic SSR.

In light of the currently released Epic SoS, I actually am in favor of deleting the "nerf wall of fire" threads completely and going all in with elemental substitution. A 20th level caster is supposed to be able to shape reality to his whims. While I'm not expecting quite that much power, give us something to do besides use level 3 spells to haste and displace the rest of the party as an optimal tactic.

I'm so impressed by a sword that lets thf have the trash mob dps of a dual lit2 khopesh user while not working on bosses .. get over the epic sos, its a big fluffy bunny of stupid.

[Aspenor]

I'm so impressed by a sword that lets thf have the trash mob dps of a dual lit2 khopesh user while not working on bosses .. get over the epic sos, its a big fluffy bunny of stupid.

I'm over it. I never actually cared that much in the first place about the sword itself. I am bringing up another issue entirely. Stay on topic.

PS - the same can be said for your wall of fire complaints. Oh no, a caster can actually put out useful damage on trash but it doesn't work on boss monsters. What a stupid argument.

[Junts]

I'm over it. I never actually cared that much in the first place about the sword itself. I am bringing up another issue entirely. Stay on topic.

PS - the same can be said for your wall of fire complaints. Oh no, a caster can actually put out useful damage on trash but it doesn't work on boss monsters. What a stupid argument.

Number one does similar damage to existing weapons and builds on trash, if anything it just justifies one build line for that purpose.

Number two can do upwards of 15k dps to a joint group of mobs if played well and is insanely boring while doing so.

Comparing the two issues isn't really realistic; they're flat up entirely different. Elemental substitution is the last thing we need.

keep in mind, by the way, that I don't want to nerf nuking casters into the ground; rather, I'd prefer to keep fw the way it is (maybe do something that reduces its extremity over very large areas by making it crit per tick instead of per cast, or something), and instead drastically improve the mana efficiency of single-cast nukes like chain, delayed blast and meteor swarm, so that outside of situations where you need truly massive damage per mana spent, those spells are viable and effective. I would like to be able to do my moderately useful nuking dps for more than halfway per shrine, and do so in a way that involves a variety of spells (and specs) instead of wof wof wof unless stuff is fire immune. My favorite example here is from recently soloing my tr as a lv 10 through elite stormcleave. I threw 1 firewall per mob pack because it was the most effective way to kill stuff. It took 2-3 firewall ticks to kill mobs, as they have around 300-350 hp. If acid blast or fire ball were just more mana efficient, I coudl have instead had the somewhat more engaging experience of casting it twice (and, for example, hoping my investment in crit lines got me a crit that made me only cast them once for added benefit!) or casting one of each, etc, instead of just casting one fw per fight. Other spells dont need to truly match fw's dpm output as long as they provide enough dpm to run the quest without casting fw exclusively. But since fw is literally 40-50 times better than other nukes when it works, we get balanced around it and our other spells are just bad. If we could just make them almost as good, their own perks (working on non-immunes, doing damage faster) would give them their own situations to be used, and we would actually carry and use a lot more spells and have a more engaging experience.

I don't want to nerf casters, I want to make them cast more than one spell to succeed cause I would enjoy mine way more then, and I play him all the time. It's kind of silly when you refill on haste and wof components about 5x as often as any other spell component :P

I just don't see all the fire about the epic SoS. Its actual impact on the game will be minimal. It brings thf trashmob damage up to where great dual wielders are, and it doesn't really help them significantly make up the gap in raid fights. Its not very good item design, but its actual gameplay consequence is just so minor. Why does it have 10 threads? It confuses me.

Item is good, item is not that good. Epic spectral gloves are a more significant upgrade for most builds. Using Epic SoS as something to cite re: caster upgrades is silly. The problem is that while they appear to have tried to give us some useful effects (and i think you are not giving enough credit to greater sp 8 on the torc, and the regular spell pen 9 necklace w/ potential for good luck +2 in a socket), many of them are poorly designed or incredibly hard to use for good effect (like the int 7 staff).

[Gol]

Option #3: get your casting stat to 19 and work on Str and Con, and join the melee fray.

[Phidius]

...
I don't want to nerf casters, I want to make them cast more than one spell to succeed cause I would enjoy mine way more then, and I play him all the time. It's kind of silly when you refill on haste and wof components about 5x as often as any other spell component :P...

+1

Option #3: get your casting stat to 19 and work on Str and Con, and join the melee fray.

+0: Gotta spread some around first

[Aspenor]

Number one does similar damage to existing weapons and builds on trash, if anything it just justifies one build line for that purpose.

Number two can do upwards of 15k dps to a joint group of mobs if played well and is insanely boring while doing so.

Comparing the two issues isn't really realistic; they're flat up entirely different. Elemental substitution is the last thing we need.

keep in mind, by the way, that I don't want to nerf nuking casters into the ground; rather, I'd prefer to keep fw the way it is (maybe do something that reduces its extremity over very large areas by making it crit per tick instead of per cast, or something), and instead drastically improve the mana efficiency of single-cast nukes like chain, delayed blast and meteor swarm, so that outside of situations where you need truly massive damage per mana spent, those spells are viable and effective. I would like to be able to do my moderately useful nuking dps for more than halfway per shrine, and do so in a way that involves a variety of spells (and specs) instead of wof wof wof unless stuff is fire immune. My favorite example here is from recently soloing my tr as a lv 10 through elite stormcleave. I threw 1 firewall per mob pack because it was the most effective way to kill stuff. It took 2-3 firewall ticks to kill mobs, as they have around 300-350 hp. If acid blast or fire ball were just more mana efficient, I coudl have instead had the somewhat more engaging experience of casting it twice (and, for example, hoping my investment in crit lines got me a crit that made me only cast them once for added benefit!) or casting one of each, etc, instead of just casting one fw per fight. Other spells dont need to truly match fw's dpm output as long as they provide enough dpm to run the quest without casting fw exclusively. But since fw is literally 40-50 times better than other nukes when it works, we get balanced around it and our other spells are just bad. If we could just make them almost as good, their own perks (working on non-immunes, doing damage faster) would give them their own situations to be used, and we would actually carry and use a lot more spells and have a more engaging experience.

I don't want to nerf casters, I want to make them cast more than one spell to succeed cause I would enjoy mine way more then, and I play him all the time. It's kind of silly when you refill on haste and wof components about 5x as often as any other spell component :P

I just don't see all the fire about the epic SoS. Its actual impact on the game will be minimal. It brings thf trashmob damage up to where great dual wielders are, and it doesn't really help them significantly make up the gap in raid fights. Its not very good item design, but its actual gameplay consequence is just so minor. Why does it have 10 threads? It confuses me.

Item is good, item is not that good. Epic spectral gloves are a more significant upgrade for most builds. Using Epic SoS as something to cite re: caster upgrades is silly. The problem is that while they appear to have tried to give us some useful effects (and i think you are not giving enough credit to greater sp 8 on the torc, and the regular spell pen 9 necklace w/ potential for good luck +2 in a socket), many of them are poorly designed or incredibly hard to use for good effect (like the int 7 staff).

Interestingly enough, I solo'd my TR through SC elite at level 8 barely using WoF at all. Maximized/Empowered acid blast with superior potency III did the work better than Wall of Fire did, and faster. It also worked on everything in the dungeon, unlike fire.

Casters are supposed to be able to fry large groups of monsters. While in PnP it's a rather suboptimal tactic, it's king here in DDO (especially with the advent of Heroic Surge). Giving us elemental substitution would still only affect trash monsters if Turbine had half a brain about it (give boss monsters Mantles, done).

While I get that for you Wall of Fire detracts from your fun, it does not for many, many others. However, this is not a thread about Wall of Fire, it is about the lack of any useful items in the epic list other than the Epic SSR. Let's stay on topic.

[Junts]

Interestingly enough, I solo'd my TR through SC elite at level 8 barely using WoF at all. Maximized/Empowered acid blast with superior potency III did the work better than Wall of Fire did, and faster. It also worked on everything in the dungeon, unlike fire.

Casters are supposed to be able to fry large groups of monsters. While in PnP it's a rather suboptimal tactic, it's king here in DDO (especially with the advent of Heroic Surge). Giving us elemental substitution would still only affect trash monsters if Turbine had half a brain about it (give boss monsters Mantles, done).

While I get that for you Wall of Fire detracts from your fun, it does not for many, many others. However, this is not a thread about Wall of Fire, it is about the lack of any useful items in the epic list other than the Epic SSR. Let's stay on topic.

As a wizard/2 rogue, the only way I was casting acid blast that much was with major potions one fw every so often, then gathering as many fire immunes in one place as possible for the 2 acid blasts to wipe them out :P

I hate wizard sp! grr

[Samadhi]

Some good epic loot for casters might be one of the few motivating factors that could get me to rerun the "epic" content that I was bored of several years ago.

[Delacroix21]

I never understood "nerf wall of fire" threads. To be honest they seem to be the only times when I really notice caster dps... its sad but true.


It seems in DDO casters either cast instant death spells, buffs, and wall of fire. Sure there are some polar rays etc. occasionaly thrown out there (not to mention webs), but casters in DDO no way live up to what is intended of them in DnD. Am I caster biased? Absolutely not! In fact I have yet to PLAY a caster past level 4 (hehe, he starts at level 4).


I think casters should go back to DnD style, few spells a day, but when they throw one its like "holy dookie batman!" In DDO metamagics arent a bonus to damage, they are 100% necessary! Not a single person I know of casts wall of fire, polar ray, blade barrier, etc. without BOTH maximize and empower on. That is certainly not the way things SHOULD be, these feats should be a bonus, not the balancing factor for caster dps.


So here is what I suggest...


1. DDO spell damage gets doubled across the board!
2. Maximize and Empower work the way the USED to, and have a MASSIVE magic cost


This should get casters throwing bread and butter spells often, and for some quality damage. Maxmize and empower with increase this damage in a huge way, but for a huge cost. Dropping a maxxed and empowered spell will be enormous damage (at least double current damage) but will cost 4 times as much as current!


Heck! I dont know if my suggestions will help at all, but something does need to be done to help arcanes (or dare I say... battle casting divines!)

[Maegin]

This is a very interesting thread. I just hope it stays on topic more.

my 2kpp.

Continue.

[oweieie]

There are a lot of problems with casters and a lot of difference from PnP.

Summon Monster, 9 of a caster's spells, are basically useless. The best summoner in the game isn't an 18th level wizard or cleric but any level 11 with a few shroud clickies which let you have many superior pets out at once. In PnP monsters were useful for absorbing hits, blocking areas, special attacks and the like and you could summon many. In DDO all of this is true of the earth elemental clicky from shroud but not of the spells. DDO monsters should at least be doing some useful things, spiders dropping webs that have a DC high enough to be useful, Hezrou that trip, trolls that stun etc.

Monster DCs are just flat out higher than in PnP making anything but no-save spells like Polar Ray and Wall of Fire of questionable use. I think the main culprit here is wail, implosion, sphere of dancing and mass charm. Without mass kill spells the DCs could be dropped on mobs making them more susceptible to damage based spells. Or simply raise the DC on the less deadly spells that are damage based like chain lightning.

Disinitigrate, Horrid Wilting and the like which aren't elemental don't have enhancement support so are pointless as they're taking the double whammy of having a save and doing less damage with less crits. Two of the nicer spells in PnP. Having limited elemental specialization for casters was a mistake. Having to spend 22 enhancement points on a pair of elements on top of having to spend points on spell penetration was also a mistake.

Debuffs that are useful in PnP are pointless in DDO since trash dies so quickly and bosses are immune there is no reason to load up slow or ray of enfeeblement. And when a boss isn't immune, like Crushing Despair, they pretty much have to roll a 1 for it to land, making it pointless. These spells should still work on bosses just with reduced effect making them somewhat useful and making a wizard feel like there was some point in having those extra spells slots.

Power Words and other HD or or HP limited spells like Circle of Undeath, Symbol of Death etc. are utter useless garbage. Get rid of the HP limit. Is power word blind really so powerful that it has to be made useless when radiance guard on my dragon touched does it irrespective of HPs? Oh, and while you're at it, fix the blind effect, stoned, paralyzed and stunned mobs wandering around because they have blind on is a really stupid bug.

Over half of our abbreviated spell list is simply not worth casting. Once you add in the fact that you pretty much have to specialize to one element pair, typically fire/cold because of firewall/polar ray, you can add in a bunch more spells to the useless pile for a caster.