Must have high level spells?

[Mystera]

What would you consider MUST HAVE high level spells, that without you would not even be effective in end game raids? I ask because I'm seriously considering a multiclass build that is more versatile than just spell casting and only has 14 levels of sorcerer. I'll have the same mana pool as an 18/2 wizard but access to only level 7 spells. However, when revieing the list of level 8 and 9 spells it didn't seem like I was missing much. It seems like many of the lower level spells are more efficient. For example:

- For 45 spell points a pure lvl 20 sorcerer can cast Polar Ray for up to 120 damage and no save. But a lvl 14 sorcerer can cast 2x Frost Lance for 40 spell points and inflict up to 240 damage (120 damage if they make their fort save). The difference is even greater if you consider that it's easy to power up Frost Lance 50% with a lvl 3 potency item, but much harder to find the equipment necessary to power up the Polar Ray spell 50%.

Now my point is not to say that a lvl 14 sorcerer is equal to a lvl 20 sorcerer, so please don't go down that path. It's merely to say I've debated a multiclass build that I think would be fun to play, and I just want to make sure I don't gimp my spell casting abilities to the point where I wouldn't enjoy end game content (though I will have other options besides spell casting due to the multiclass nature of the build). And in looking through lvl 8-9 spells I just don't see anything that looks like it's a MUST HAVE. But I would like your input. Also, do you think it's required to have more than 2 lvl 6 and 1 lvl 7 spell slots? If so tell me the bare minimum set of spells you would consider carrying at those levels.

[Trillea]

What would you consider MUST HAVE high level spells, that without you would not even be effective in end game raids? I ask because I'm seriously considering a multiclass build that is more versatile than just spell casting and only has 14 levels of sorcerer. I'll have the same mana pool as an 18/2 wizard but access to only level 7 spells. However, when revieing the list of level 8 and 9 spells it didn't seem like I was missing much. It seems like many of the lower level spells are more efficient. For example:

- For 45 spell points a pure lvl 20 sorcerer can cast Polar Ray for up to 120 damage and no save. But a lvl 14 sorcerer can cast 2x Frost Lance for 40 spell points and inflict up to 240 damage (120 damage if they make their fort save). The difference is even greater if you consider that it's easy to power up Frost Lance 50% with a lvl 3 potency item, but much harder to find the equipment necessary to power up the Polar Ray spell 50%.

Now my point is not to say that a lvl 14 sorcerer is equal to a lvl 20 sorcerer, so please don't go down that path. It's merely to say I've debated a multiclass build that I think would be fun to play, and I just want to make sure I don't gimp my spell casting abilities to the point where I wouldn't enjoy end game content (though I will have other options besides spell casting due to the multiclass nature of the build). And in looking through lvl 8-9 spells I just don't see anything that looks like it's a MUST HAVE. But I would like your input. Also, do you think it's required to have more than 2 lvl 6 and 1 lvl 7 spell slots? If so tell me the bare minimum set of spells you would consider carrying at those levels.

On Polar Ray vs Frost Lance, there are a couple important points that you are missing. Polar ray is easily boosted with a belt clicky for the (water?) savant set for enough time to do a full mana dump. Second, the save for frost lance is a fort save, which is a strong save for most endgame mobs, especially raid bosses where the DPS matters most. Third, frost lance damage comes in 3 bursts, in which resistances are applied separately. All of these, when taken together, show why polar ray is superior (and therefore appropriately a higher level spell). Not to put frost lance down (I carry it on my sorc myself) but it is NOT a replacement for polar ray.

As for level 6 spells, there are too many important ones:

Acid fog: a must if you don't carry solid fog
Greater Hero: Scrollable, but that gets expensive
Chain Lightning: fixed next update per Eladrin and testers on Lamannia
Flesh to Stone: would not drop this for anything
Disintegrate: your only effective spell against many construct and high level undead monsters
Reconstruct: If you are WF, you WILL have this spell.

It's hard enough to cut this down to 3 spells, let alone 2.

As for the level 7 spells, there are fewer good choices, but still some really good ones:

Finger of Death: Bread and butter for any non-melee sorc
Otto's Sphere: Will save to hold a group of enemies still? Yes please!
Waves of Exhaustion: Scrollable, but you get much better spell pen if you cast it.

8th level has the BEST CC in game: Otto's irresistable dance. Also has the above mentioned Polar Ray. Trap the Soul is a great (if expensive) instakill spell as it is a will save not fort.

9th level has 3 decent spells and 1 half decent spell:

Energy drain: Yes you could cast enervate 2x, but that's 2x the chance to miss/be resisted.
Summon Monster 9: With upcoming changes, summoned monsters will be more permanent (until killed) so can be worth keeping around.
Wail of the Banshee: SOO much fun!

The half decent one is meteor swarm, would be really good if all the meteors could hit the same target.

So in my (not so I guess) humble opinion, sorcs have a hard enough choice when it comes to spells as it is to gimp your spell choices.

[Arctigis]

If Fire/Ice then DBF is pretty much a must at L7.
I wouldn't carry any fog spells - the slowdown has been so nerfed as to be unnoticeable.

Frost Lance vs. Polar Ray is more situational I think. They are both desirable. PR does do more damage,
particularly if you have some source of Glaciation VIII (i.e. Telvi's Sash, gloves+bracers+DT). PR has a longer
cooldown and does cost more SP (I assume you have enhancement to reduce cost of heightening) but it has no
save. Frost Lance is good against mobs with evasion as it is fort not reflex. As others point out, each lance is
handled separately with regard to resistance but also wrt to crits. I've seen very good damage numbers from
FL as a result of this.

[Trillea]

If Fire/Ice then DBF is pretty much a must at L7.
I wouldn't carry any fog spells - the slowdown has been so nerfed as to be unnoticeable.

Frost Lance vs. Polar Ray is more situational I think. They are both desirable. PR does do more damage,
particularly if you have some source of Glaciation VIII (i.e. Telvi's Sash, gloves+bracers+DT). PR has a longer
cooldown and does cost more SP (I assume you have enhancement to reduce cost of heightening) but it has no
save. Frost Lance is good against mobs with evasion as it is fort not reflex. As others point out, each lance is
handled separately with regard to resistance but also wrt to crits. I've seen very good damage numbers from
FL as a result of this.

Good catch on DBF, I am at work and couldnt take the time out to thoroughly research the spells... Why can't I hit the lotto so I can do what's important?!

[Mystera]

Trillea and Arctigis, thanks for your valuable feedback and getting the discussion started. I guess it all comes down to personal choices, and making the best decisions I can. A few of my thoughts:

Level 9 Spells
- Energy Drain: If I needed to I would cast enervate 2x (which my build has), so to me it's not worth changing my build to get this included
- Summon Monster 9: Didn't know abou the upcoming change to make summoned monsters permanent until killed, which would be cool while soloing, but to me the summons still aren't uber enough to make it a must have
- Wail of the Banshee: Cool spell but since it's more geared towards lower level mobs I don't see it impacting my raid performance

Level 8 Spells
- Polar Ray: You make a good point on resistances applied seperately. Given that frost lance still has a chance to do double the damage per spell point on a missed save, and the same damage on a made save, I'm still ok with using frost lance as a replacement. It's just not enough of a difference to lose the other abilities of a multiclass build to justify taking it
- Otto's Irresistable Dance: My thought is I would just cast a heightened level 2 web or otto's irresitable dance depending on the mob. That way I can check these off with level 2 slots and not juggle around the build to get level 8 slots. Another option I have is to spam my paralyzing handwraps which has proven to be very effective, especially given that my multiclass build has GTWF, high bonuses to hit, attack speed of a monk, and BAB of a fighter (divine power clickies)


Level 7 Spells
- Finger of Death: This is where I plan to save mana over a straight caster because for trash mobs I can effectively use paralying / disruption / smiting handwraps or dual vorpal kamas to get a similar effect. I can see this being a must for straight caster builds though
- Otto's Sphere: Again my plan is to use a heightened web, otto's irresitable dance (lvl 2), or paralyzing handwraps as a substitute (depending on the mob)
- Delayed Blast Fireball: I plan to use fireball, scorching ray, and firewall as substitutes on mobs that are susceptible to fire. Just don't see to much benefit to adding this as a 4th choice (especially since spell slots are slim)
- Waves of Exhaustion: This is the one I will probably pick up for the 7th level spell slot since it is fairly unique and is an effective debuff. Especially since I can follow it up with weakening of enfeebling and maldroit of bone breaking handwraps to get the target to 1 quickly

Level 6 Spells
I'm about the same as a lvl 20 sorcerer here as I have 2 slots and they would have 3 slots, a difference of only 1 slot. On a full lvl 20 I would carry Greater Heroism, Flesh to Stone, and Disintegrate. With my multiclass build I can already eliminate high level constructs and undead with disruption and smiting handwraps, so I'll probably drop disintegrate for this build


Thanks for the feedback and input everyone, keep it coming...

[Arctigis]

Without seeing your feat breakdown; with only 14 caster levels, I'd stick to nukes and buffs. You will struggle with
the DC and/or spell penetration to land debuffs and CC.

[Mystera]

Without seeing your feat breakdown; with only 14 caster levels, I'd stick to nukes and buffs. You will struggle with
the DC and/or spell penetration to land debuffs and CC.

If I remember correctly DC is dependent on your main casting stat (charisma) and not caster level. My main casting stat is as high as you can get it, plus I have the wizard past life feat that gives me +1 DC to all schools. So DC should not be a problem.

I have to pay special attention to spell penetration in my build since the formula for overcoming spell resistance includes caster level. That said I do have +2 SP from wizard past life, another +4 from SP feats, and +2 from enhancements. That will put me about on the same level, or slightly higher, than a pure 20 sorcerer who rationalizes not taking SP and GSP feats, and they seem to do ok. On top of that I'll have the torc necklace which will give me +3 penetration (whereas most people wear items that only give +2 penetration). So I'll be ok when it comes to debuffs and CC.

[Arctigis]

If I remember correctly DC is dependent on your main casting stat (charisma) and not caster level. My main casting stat is as high as you can get it, plus I have the wizard past life feat that gives me +1 DC to all schools. So DC should not be a problem.

I have to pay special attention to spell penetration in my build since the formula for overcoming spell resistance includes caster level. That said I do have +2 SP from wizard past life, another +4 from SP feats, and +2 from enhancements. That will put me about on the same level, or slightly higher, than a pure 20 sorcerer who rationalizes not taking SP and GSP feats, and they seem to do ok. On top of that I'll have the torc necklace which will give me +3 penetration (whereas most people wear items that only give +2 penetration). So I'll be ok when it comes to debuffs and CC.

Perhaps it would help to actually post your build then? I only had your first post which claimed a 'multiclass'.

[solarhead]

If I remember correctly DC is dependent on your main casting stat (charisma) and not caster level. My main casting stat is as high as you can get it, plus I have the wizard past life feat that gives me +1 DC to all schools. So DC should not be a problem.

You're going to lose 2 heighten DC. DC depends on spell level; heighten raises the DC to your highest spell level, which would be 7 instead of 9.

[sirgog]

Irresistable Dance is one of the two best spells a Sorc brings to Epic dungeons (Wall of Fire being the other one). Heightened Web just doesn't cut it once you face foes with high saves.

[Shade]

lvl9:
Summons because summons teleport to summon you next mod? LOL. Summons are the absolutley worst spells you could ever load on a sorc. They suck on normal and are utterly worthless on any higher difficulty. Also Hezours teleport to follow you anyways, so who cares about the upcoming change regarding that. The only things I ever see those awful hezrou do is get in my face and bug quests due to teleporting beyond the limits the quest designers intended.

Imo the summons change is a BS nerf. It destroys the only barely useful summon in the game:
The stone elemetanl army. As you can now only have 1 at a time, and just 1 sucks.. As an army, they were almost equivalent to 1 really bag pug melee.. As a single unit, there as bad as any other summon.

Must have lvl9 missing on many's list is mass hold monster.

Any quest where mobs get deathward/block, or just have higher fort saves and not great will saves (saves wise that makes up just about almost every monster in the game).. Mass hold + some melee in your group is your new wail of the banshee.

[Shade]

Irresistable Dance is one of the two best spells a Sorc brings to Epic dungeons (Wall of Fire being the other one). Heightened Web just doesn't cut it once you face foes with high saves.

web is an awesome spell for epic if you can get your DC to the point where it works well. Just most casters cannot as it requires some extreme stats.

I think a TR'd wizard with conjuration focus web would be almost unresistable, as my crappy sorc would be a good 5DC behind and his works fine. Overall reflex saves are fairly balanced for that.

You don't see it used much in the current dungeons as there desgin makes it's less effective, but for VoNs i think it will be much more useful.
IE: Chains - allot of flame spells flying around tend to burn it down too quick
Offering: Flamestrikes and Scorpiions with abnormally strong reflexes kill your webs too
Wiz King: It's ultra effective, however - not as effective as halt undead.. For mummies it's ideal as there immune to halt, but many casters lack the skill to aim it alongside there wall of fires correctly
DQ1: In certain rooms it works great (mephits, trogs, monkeys) but with the huge amount of flame-type enemies added, immunties on those prevents it.