Low Level Raids

[Angelus_dead]

The whole game is like this. If your fun is in the challenge, go for it. If you just want the loot, pike through it.

Incorrect. Most of the quests throughout the game are primarily run by characters of around the intended level. That should be obvious if you pay attention while playing DDO.

Favor runs are not a significant factor, because each character only ever needs to get the favor once. There are also some low-level quests with loot that remains attractive later, such as Xorian Cipher: but because dungeons don't need as many players as raids do, that doesn't create an obstacle to the formation of lowbie groups.

Why are we worried about other people's motives again?

Because they impact gameplay for everyone. It is blatantly fallacious to claim that the actions of other people don't matter. Here's a large article explaining why that is.

Maybe for you. To some others, getting their loot in the quickest way possible might be more fun.
You're a bright guy, A_D, but you gotta learn that you don't speak for everyone. Not for me, not the devs, not the community at large, no one but you.

Incorrect. The claim to which you are referring is an elementary aspect of game design, with which every game designer around the world would fundamentally agree.

If you don't see why that is, there are schools and books that would be happy to help.

[KKDragonLord]

This post reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHWyJT2QRMM



I fully expect to be tarred, feathered, and driven out of town for posting a WoW video.

I like the idea though.

Very fun vid, nice soundtrack

i wonder if im the only one who thought "my they are taking an awful long time just to get there"

oh yeah... and "I wish DDO had Gnomes"

[sirgog]

Incorrect. The claim to which you are referring is an elementary aspect of game design, with which every game designer around the world would fundamentally agree.

If you don't see why that is, there are schools and books that would be happy to help.

You always claim that your opinion is 'correct', and that the opinions of others that disagree with you are 'incorrect'.

Let's instead look at the provable FACTS.

What was the most popular pre-Shroud raid, according to a forum poll run soon after Mod 5 hit?

Was it the at-cap Reaver raid? The above-cap Abbot raid? The slightly below cap DQ raid?

No, no and no. It was the well-below cap Tempest's Spine. The raid that geared, capped characters had no incentive to run, but that most players ran while levelling because they found it was fun. A raid that, even now, a group fills up for far faster than groups fill for ToD, VoD or Epic DQ2. The raid that people set up a 9-12 group for, then hit 'decline' when a level 13, 14 or 20 tries to join.


That's all fact, no opinion. (Shroud is now more popular than TS, and that's also fact).

Now for my opinion. [opinion]Lower level raids (in the level 6-9 range) would be viable if and only if they meet the following critera:

1) Good XP/time ratio (doesn't need to be Shadow Crypt good, but should offer at least the XP/time of Stormcleave). Preferably, XP should be awarded for 'partial' completion as it is in Devil Assault.
2) Loot that's very powerful at the level you get it
3) Loot that's not at all desirable to level 15+ characters
4) No lockout timer (so people don't run the raid once, get on a 66 hour lockout, then outlevel it before they can come back).
5) The raid should be tough enough that wipes can happen, but forgiving enough that many, many strategies are viable. (Example: Gwylan's Stand on Hard with a level 7 party - wipes can happen but careful players won't suffer many).

A raid satisfying all of these criteria would be a popular part of the levelling game and irrelevant to endgame, just as non-raid quests like Stormcleave Outpost are.
[/opinion]

[Timjc86]

Very fun vid, nice soundtrack

i wonder if im the only one who thought "my they are taking an awful long time just to get there"

oh yeah... and "I wish DDO had Gnomes"

Yeah, I posted it up before re-watching it. I had completely forgotten about all the extra fluff at the beginning. I'll throw a note in my first post.

[Cripey]

That is incorrect. Tempest Spine is not presently popular.

That is incorrect. Tempest Spine is presently popular.

[Montrose]

These are certainly some interesting discussion on the relative mertis of having or not having a raid, but I think a major point is being missed here.

Obviously there is some non-zero level of desire for a "low level raid". The topic keep coming up on these forums, and every time the topic comes up there are several "I like this idea" posts in the thread.

This leads me to ask two major questions:

1) What do people mean when they ask for a low level raid?
Is it just a quest that lets 12 people in? Is it the inclusion of a difficult mob with unique mechanics? Would a 12 person stormcleave be a raid? Is it the inclusion of named and bound loot?

2) Why there is interest in a "low level raid"?
Very related to #1, of course. What is the motivating factor behind this request? Do people just want to be able to play with more people? Is it the extra challenge that raids usually posses? Is it the loot? Some combination of all of the above?

Some very valid arguments have been presented as to why beneath-cap raids would be non-optimal. But if we knew the underlying desires behind the request, it may be possible to suggest alternate solutions rather than just dropping a new raid into the game.

Maybe the solution is to have more quests with unique elements (like crucible), or maybe the solution is to have more non-loot raids (like tempest spine). Without having a good grasp of the customer desire, it's difficult to have a conversation more developed than "it is a good idea" versus "it is a bad idea".