Ranged Hatred and Myths.

[calvinklien]

Why is it, that the ranged guy who bites off more than he can chew, and dies for it, is considered a worse player than the melee guy who charges into a mob, and dies?

exactly my question as well. cuz i hear alot of this "archers are worthless" kinda talk.

i play an AA. i've learned some tricks.

first of all, an archer with no sense can screw things up, especially if he starts kiting so the melee cant do anything, but so can a melee' tank who is trying to bite off more than he can chew.

first thing i've learned is that timing your manyshots, and using them liberally, is key to having good dps. i'm not claiming that an archer can achieve the steady dps that other melee builds can (before you all freak out on me)

but you wont have good DPS as an archer unless you are using the PERFECT bow for the job. equipment is really vital. we archers don't have the luxury of a vorpal weapon.

i carry about 25+ bows and know my hotkeys intimately. an archer MUST examine a beast/boss more than a melee' fella who runs around w/vorpal 80% of time (if they aren't all greensteeled out) you have to examine that buggar and choose the right bow, fast.

but the number one tip for an archer is to let your fighters/barbs and mages get the agro first (usually while you examine the beast), then unload w/your manyshots, and the right bow, and make sure you're buffed for max damage.

i KNOW i've been a great contribution to the partys i ran w/while playing my AA. i've saved all of them before. i've assasinated bosses virtually single handedly, the fact that i DID grab agro, saved my party, and the fact that i was grabbing agro meant i was obviously doing more damage than anyone else. i also assasinate beholders before others even have to do anything. (acid/greater abberation bow w/force enhancements and conjured +5 arrows, manshot, goodbye beholder.)

my archer has darn good ac, and if need be, can turtle up w/a shield, sprintboost to grab soulstones and get the party back to a shrine.

having said that, an archer than runs in and starts shooting things far away, (just because he can) is dumb. just like a barbarian or monk who runs really fast ahead (just cuz he can) then brings a ****ed off mob back to a party taken off guard. especially when that monk or barb retreats back to the party on the verge of death, which i see quiet frequently.

my archer can give good buffs to the party (freedom of mvmnt, barkskin and heals, poison resist) and the fact that he isn't in the fray makes it easier for me to lend that kind of support.

but yea, a bad archer is a bad archer just like a bad fighter is a bad fighter. i will say that there are many instances where an archer will find himself in very close quarters, and it can get tough, i like to maximize my range, and if the enemy is suddenly agroed at me, i start charging it, leap over it's head (cuz rangers get jump too) and lead him back to the melee' fellas, this lets them get some flank hits in, gives 'em a chance to trip, sunder, or whatever.

i could go on forever. but i get invited to parties all the time which leads me to believe archers do have a place in DDO, it just takes more... style, learning to become really helpful. after all, we don't dump all our points in constituion and strength, and look for a vorpal weapon....

archers flat out own slayer areas, taking almost no damage while slaying in wilderness. bet me on it. bet me. :P

edit: oh yea, and i lvld my ranger to 18 so fast it's not even funny. ran abuncha quests solo, ran w/parties, yadda yadda

[Creeper]

Truth is the ranged guy kites "ONE" monster. And only the worst ranged guys actually get themselves killed this way.

My thoughts on ranged rangers:

1. The truth that I have seen is ranged guy establishes first agro into a group of mobs and gets the entire group’s agro. I know you will say that only bad rangers do this. I agree.
People will say to wait till the tanks establish agro and then start firing. This is what doesn’t make sense to me. What’s the point of ranged combat then?
It works good with an intimitank. Yeah ok. I agree. It works almost as good a rogue dual wielding +1 daggers along with an intimitank.

3. Manyshot is totally awesome. No doubt about that. Unless it is cooling down. Then it really sucks. This is when rapiers come in handy.

0. There are times when ranged is needed. That is why I always carry a throwing weapon.

3. Your repair bill is cheap.

6. It’s slow.

7. It’s fun for a change.

4. Paralyzing bows are awesome at mid level. Crippling is nice at high levels. WEF repeaters are always awesome.

And the final thought that, to me, says the most:

4. In total honesty I have never been in a quest and said; “Man, I wish we had a ranged build.”

[bobbryan2]

4. In total honesty I have never been in a quest and said; “Man, I wish we had a ranged build.”

Von 6

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'd say it's about half of sword and board. And I'd say sword and board is about 2/3 of what THF and TWF is.

So I'd say it's about 33% as effective as melee. As a rough estimate.

I'm just saying that you're saying 2 different things. First you say it isn't negligible, and then you write 2 paragraphs saying that it IS negligible in other words. I'm not one to say ranged is never useful... but doing 1/3 of the damage means that you could have 3 bow users that are equalling 1 well equipped melee.

When you consider that you only have 6 people in the party, and only about 3 on average are geared towards non-magical DPS (at best)... then dropping about 20% of the parties overall DPS is fairly significant.

Sry Bobby, I'm tired.
I've always admited it was less.
And 33% is about the one third that I've always believed it to be.

I PUG all the time. The average player is not doing top DPS. The average player is very weak IMO.

Yet they still complete quests just fine (well...not just fine, but they complete them)

And I have yet to make a real high DPS char.
Yet 3000+ favor later, I know I can handle anything if the group works together, and plays with some sense.

I don't need five top DPS guys to finish a quest. I need five smart people who play well.

If they want to use a bow, it's fine with me.

But a good player will realise that making a one trick pony char is weak. And that if he has a good melee option, then sometimes he needs to use it.

Because sometimes you really do need to pour on the DPS to bring down a tough monster.

But I would never fill and LFM by making people give me a video of the DPS their char can do. It's not that important.

If I get Uberguy in my group, who kills everything in one swing....great.
If I get average newbie, who does.......one third DPS. That's fine too.

So if I get Bows-a-lot....he might only do one third DPS. But that doesn't make him a handicap IMO.

If he can handle himself, and contribute to the team, he's good in my book.
If he can't.....even if he's doing great damage, he's not the person I want in my group.

I don't know what else to say....sry

[bobbryan2]

I don't know what else to say....sry

Nah, you're fine. I'm a little sensitive on the subject because I always get some yahoo that runs around in the final room in Stealer of Souls, ranging Sor'Jek, despite his DR blunt.

Now, I just as often find some guy that wants to use his Min II khopeshes against the Abbot... so it's not like stupidity is the sole domain of ranged. My only caveat would be that mr. Min II khopeshes will pull his weight far more often than ranges-mr.-sor'jek guy. FAR MORE OFTEN.

Anyways, I've invested in a modicum of ranged ability on my ranger, including taking the capstone, and why not? You can do some absolute sick DPS manyshotting in the halls of Sins of Attrition, almost taking an entire encounter out with one manyshot.

My main point is that we have a bunch of new players coming in right now, and I'd much rather have them hear about how much ranged is gimped so I'm more likely to get Mr. Min II on abbot than I am on Freddy thinks Sor'jek is scared of arrows.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My thoughts on ranged rangers:

1. The truth that I have seen is ranged guy establishes first agro into a group of mobs and gets the entire group’s agro. I know you will say that only bad rangers do this. I agree.
People will say to wait till the tanks establish agro and then start firing. This is what doesn’t make sense to me. What’s the point of ranged combat then?
It works good with an intimitank. Yeah ok. I agree. It works almost as good a rogue dual wielding +1 daggers along with an intimitank.

3. Manyshot is totally awesome. No doubt about that. Unless it is cooling down. Then it really sucks. This is when rapiers come in handy.

0. There are times when ranged is needed. That is why I always carry a throwing weapon.

3. Your repair bill is cheap.

6. It’s slow.

7. It’s fun for a change.

4. Paralyzing bows are awesome at mid level. Crippling is nice at high levels. WEF repeaters are always awesome.

And the final thought that, to me, says the most:

4. In total honesty I have never been in a quest and said; “Man, I wish we had a ranged build.”

The agro, first shot thing.

It's a balancing act.
I know I can shoot at a mob real far away, and do a lot of damage as they are runing to us.
But no party wants me to do that.
Plus most of them will be agroed on me then. Ans since I didn't build a tank, that is not really what I want.

One of the problems with it, is it is not real compatible with how other players play.

It could be. But very few groups adapt to having a ranged guy with them.

So unfortunately, we red headed step children are forced to adapt to how everyone else plays.

Which means I don't shoot first (often).



One of my favorite chars is my Rog17. But as soon as I'm faced with a perched Gnoll archer, or an air elemental....I feel really weak that I do not have a good ranged attack.

I made my Tempest Rogue not so much for Tempest, but to try to get a good ranged attack option, on a Rogue.

It's very important to me to be versitile.

I've matured a lot in this game. My Rgrs do a lot more melee now than I use to.
Melee is now my prefered style.

But when the stuff hits the fan, I pull out my bow....cause it will keep me alive.

[calvinklien]

4. Paralyzing bows are awesome at mid level. Crippling is nice at high levels. WEF repeaters are always awesome.

as well as improved destruction, improved cursespewing, puncturing, banishing, smiting, disruption, all of which can be buttered up at distance before that lackluster AI of the beasts even starts attack, giving melee a chance to rush in and get better chances to hit, and mages too.

and if you think "I've never had a need for a ranged build." that's because turbine has nerfed range, for one, and most the quests involve really close quarters and hasn't designed TOO many quests where range is ultra necessary, but i still wont agree that it's a worthless class (not that YOU said so, creeper)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Nah, you're fine. I'm a little sensitive on the subject because I always get some yahoo that runs around in the final room in Stealer of Souls, ranging Sor'Jek, despite his DR blunt.

Now, I just as often find some guy that wants to use his Min II khopeshes against the Abbot... so it's not like stupidity is the sole domain of ranged. My only caveat would be that mr. Min II khopeshes will pull his weight far more often than ranges-mr.-sor'jek guy. FAR MORE OFTEN.

Anyways, I've invested in a modicum of ranged ability on my ranger, including taking the capstone, and why not? You can do some absolute sick DPS manyshotting in the halls of Sins of Attrition, almost taking an entire encounter out with one manyshot.

My main point is that we have a bunch of new players coming in right now, and I'd much rather have them hear about how much ranged is gimped so I'm more likely to get Mr. Min II on abbot than I am on Freddy thinks Sor'jek is scared of arrows.

First time I did SoS, I ranged him.
But I didn't know what his DR was then. And I was just being cautious, cause I didn't know anything about the quest, or his abilities.

I still range the abott. In circles, jumping and doging his ray attacks.
Triple Positive Bow and Silver Flame Lesser Undead bane arrows seems to do a lot of damage to him. And he doesn't usually do much to me...if I'm careful anyway.

But I'm still getting to know that quest too. I'm willing to melee him, when I'm more comfortible with it.

Just did Sins again recently, with Talonkage(in my sig)
Displacement on tap is very powerful....I think everyone else in the group dies a couple times...but not me.
Most of the time I meleed. But once I remember that it got real crazy. I backed up down the hallway...healed and rebuffed, then unloaded with Manyshot.
Lots of pretty numbers...didn't take to long before most of those devils teleported to me. But I was fully buffed and was able to take it till the group got back on their feet and helped me finish them off.

It just works so well for me. I've learned how to use it efectively. And it's frustrating to see close minded people critisize it so much.

Plus I've had fun with an odd build. And squishy builds. And an archer Ftr too.
And I've succeeded with those.

So when I see people talk about blacklisting someone with an inferior build, that gets to me too.

Anyway, people should just stop the hate, and let people play IMO.

[Aesop]

I love me some Ranged Combat...

I'd like to see it improved a bit though.

33% DPS in not acceptable imo

S&B should be closer to 75% not 50%

ranged should be closer to 66%

of course this is just me BSing really ... I don't have solid numbers on what it should or should not be.

I just want it to be faster and more effective and fun.

The way I built my archer includes maxed out Diplomacy so I can dump aggro onto the Tanks at the earliest time...

Really tactical abilities that don't revolve around having the right bow...

The transmuting change hurt Ranged Combat severely because of those Blunt and Slashing DRs

Over all we shoot too slow for my taste.

Its funny but in PnP we'd actually fire faster than S&B not half the speed

Aesop

[Ninetoes]

the more HP the mob has, the more inefficient it is to use ranged weapons to take them down.

The slow attack speed problem get magnified as the HP of the monsters go up.

At least that is my impression.

It may be only that it takes increasingly longer to kill them with ranged.....hmm..hard to explain what I mean.

This is obvious in the Harbor.
Do a quest on normal with a ranged guy and get a ton of kills.
Do it on elite and you fall way behind.

Or at lvl 20, I can run out in the desert and slaughter gnolls with a bow.
But I go into Mindsunder and barely hurt them at all. (in comparison to their total HP)

As the HP go up, the effectiveness of ranged weapons goes down. If that makes sense.

So you're not talking about "DPS" here, but the actual effectiveness of ranged combat. I'm with you now, I was misunderstanding the statement.

You're basically saying that ranged is weak damage. Hence, low HP mobs die much faster to your toothpick shots than the tougher ones. The DPS isn't getting less effective, the style is.

That's not meant to be insulting in any way. I do not have any high level experience, I just recently resubscribed. So, I won't pretend to know how well it scales via personal experience.

What I think you should remember is that in any MMO (or any multiplayer game) the truly horrible players outnumber the good players. This is painfully obvious in a game like DDO where you actually have to plan ahead, consider, and research just to build a character that isn't utter kobold dung.

It's just a numbers game. People how don't know anything about DDO are very likely to roll random classes. Some of these classes are FAR more forgiving than others when it comes to playstyle. Ranged, however, is not forgiving in any way. The ranger stereotype isn't really fair, because that numbnuts ranger kiting a whole pack of mobs around last night might also be the owner of the barbarian you ran with last week who topped your killing blows list every encounter. You'd never know the difference. But you'll certainly start hating Rangers more and more.

[Maldavenous]

I recently leveled a nearly 100% ranged focused Arcane Archer, mostly in a 2-3 man setting, from 4-20 in a little over a week. In every level range there was effective gameplay for a ranged character but how you play changes as you level. I have a TWF/Ranged and Pure TWF Rangers also. The Arcane Archer is by far the most fun for me to play.

Level 4-10 - DPS is generally useful. Elemental Bows, Silver Longbow maybe a Greater Bane weapon for a few more common creatures and you can kill most creatures fairly quickly. In places like Gwylans you can kill most of the creatures before they even reach your group.

Level 11-15 - Crowd Control is extremely useful. You just got Improved Precise Shot and you're in the core of when Paralyzing is most functional. If you see an archer standing in a hallway with a line of Paralyzed monsters stretching back to their spawn point, that's me. In almost any encounter including multiple monsters I could easily lock up 2-3 monsters on a permanent basis until either I killed them or melees/casters hit them. A few side bows for insta-kills can work wonders with many shot. Also if you happen to have a stack of slaying arrows they're very useful in this range.

16-20 - Status Effects/Safe DPS is fairly decent. You can reduce the stats of the parties opponents and easily not pull aggro but your damage will bit a bit low, this won't matter when every hit against a big target suddenly becomes a critical and your khopesh and great axe wielding party mates cut them off at the knees. The use of Improved Cursespewing, Improved Destruction, Improved Shattermantle, etc. can also greatly help the right party in quickly getting rid of trash creatures as well as land some extra spells or attacks on boss creatures. If you're an Arcane Archer you can get a +20 additional attack bonus to be almost certain you'll land the necessary effect proccing shot. I also frequently make use of the Earthgrab Greensteel Lonbow I crafted. This bow procs fairly frequently and even a few seconds in an insta-crit earthgrab means a quick death for monsters. With an intimidating tank in your party you can easily many shot right through a group turning monsters into critical hit pinatas. Also the GS bow does really nice proc. damage vs. anything that can take acid damage.

The liberal use of many shot from the time you get it will greatly increase your DPS. Considering there's generally about 20-30 seconds between encounters and an encounter will last 20-30 seconds fairly easily you'll be using many shot once every other encounter a fair amount of. Even if it's not every other it's generally available for any encounter that will last longer than 20 seconds making Many Shot most worth using.

I use melee weapons for Shroud Portals (when I'm not many shotting with my Holy of GCB longbow) and for Harry (when I'm not using my Holy of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane longbow). Outside of that it's almost all archery.

Another key to my character is that I have a much larger pool of SP than many rangers as well as better healing. My heals hit for 100+ and I'm able to cast a wide variety of useful buffs if the party needs them. This helps save the casters SP for more important things and also lets me take a bit of damage if necessary to let the party kill something that came after me and then heal myself without costing the party any extra resources.

Personally I'd prefer to have a Ranged Ranger that knows how not to pull aggro but has limited DPS to having a DPS character who doesn't know how not to stand in front of cleaving creatures while the intimidating tank holds aggro.

I'd also be interested in seeing how Ranged Rangers compare in DPS to noodle swinging Tempest Rangers that don't have power attack and focused on DEX to max out their AC. The Ranged Ranger of course would be a strength build seeing that's the one way to make them unlike TWF who can be built for hyper AC or super DPS or places in the middle.

I certainly agree that ranged DPS is low but it's certainly not useless in any level range, it's just a matter of how you use it. Also if it's 33% DPS if you can hit 2-3 targets per shot that should keep you closer on total DPS. Personally it's infrequent that there's a battle with more than one creature in it that I am not hitting 2-3 creatures. Also I kill the back gnolls in part 4 of the shroud while also hitting Harry with my many shot. Sorry casters you only get to kill 6 of the 8 this run

[bobbryan2]

First time I did SoS, I ranged him.
But I didn't know what his DR was then. And I was just being cautious, cause I didn't know anything about the quest, or his abilities.

I still range the abott. In circles, jumping and doging his ray attacks.
Triple Positive Bow and Silver Flame Lesser Undead bane arrows seems to do a lot of damage to him. And he doesn't usually do much to me...if I'm careful anyway.

But I'm still getting to know that quest too. I'm willing to melee him, when I'm more comfortible with it.

Just did Sins again recently, with Talonkage(in my sig)
Displacement on tap is very powerful....I think everyone else in the group dies a couple times...but not me.
Most of the time I meleed. But once I remember that it got real crazy. I backed up down the hallway...healed and rebuffed, then unloaded with Manyshot.
Lots of pretty numbers...didn't take to long before most of those devils teleported to me. But I was fully buffed and was able to take it till the group got back on their feet and helped me finish them off.

It just works so well for me. I've learned how to use it efectively. And it's frustrating to see close minded people critisize it so much.

Plus I've had fun with an odd build. And squishy builds. And an archer Ftr too.
And I've succeeded with those.

So when I see people talk about blacklisting someone with an inferior build, that gets to me too.

Anyway, people should just stop the hate, and let people play IMO.

Well stop ranging the abbot for one.

[Eff]

Negligible is a very bad word here as its being twisted around and around.

Think of these %'s you are throwing out there. Think about what happens over time, you shoot you hit you damage you shoot you hit you damage, the others in your party are not ranged so they are attacking and getting hit while the healers slowly use their SP up. Whatever % you say it is think about the fact that it will take more time to kill and more sp to keep someone alive. You will reach a point where you run out or healing resources & if you had that damage a little quicker you wouldn't have wiped.

Another situation, you all of a sudden NEED high dps to kill something because it has extreme regen, or if you don't kill something fast enough you die.

The fact of the matter is ranged is slower as YOU have stated numerous times. Many people don't like to go slow.

Ranged has a use, much like dragon bane does, we just don't see it often enough to build a toon around it. Trans pure good bow or wopper or something similar with silver arrows or the like stacked with multi shot is more than enough for most if not all of the game.


Myth#2 - I don't want to wait around while he runs around with 1 or 2 guys on his tail with this more than negligible dps. Many find it irritating.

Myth #3 - We don't have a chance to tell the ranged to stop running into the next room because the arrow was already shot. We have the opportunity to say hey *yells over mic* "STOP" to a melee. You don't see a lot of this because people do learn but melee has that advantage.

I'm not saying rangers are not fun and adequate but the majority of people want 'THE BEST' its why we see many build posts about max dps highest ac etc, not FUN TOON TO PLAY THAT GETS BY.

(forgive whatever spelling punctuation etc, its bedtime )

I'm actually tired of arguing this point....sry.

Just how much less do you haters think a bow is doing compared to melee?

Half?
A third?
a Quarter?
10%?

1%?

Personally I think it is about a third. Which is hardly negligible IMO.

But actually I think people don't really understand how much it does.
Because of the observation I have made about as HP go up Ranged DPS goes down.

So it may be less than a third at the highest lvls.

But it's way more than 1%.

Ask the government if 1% is negligible. Or a bank.
And it's way more than that anyway.

[Maldavenous]

Another situation, you all of a sudden NEED high dps to kill something because it has extreme regen, or if you don't kill something fast enough you die.

Many Shot? If it needs to die quick I figure the 20 seconds of many shot fits the bill. The larger issue is sustained fights like Raid Bosses. Those situations are what I carry melee weapons for.

[Creeper]

and if you think "I've never had a need for a ranged build." that's because turbine has nerfed range,

What nerf are you talking about?

[bobbryan2]

What nerf are you talking about?

Well, most recently.... the attack speed rewrite.

[Creeper]

Well, most recently.... the attack speed rewrite.

bobbryan2, are you sure this is what calvinklien was talking about? I didn't want for a ranged build prior to this...

[bobbryan2]

bobbryan2, are you sure this is what calvinklien was talking about? I didn't want for a ranged build prior to this...

I don't know exactly what he's talking about, but yeah... that put ranged a little further behind what it was.

[Calebro]

I'm not saying rangers are not fun and adequate but the majority of people want 'THE BEST' its why we see many build posts about max dps highest ac etc, not FUN TOON TO PLAY THAT GETS BY.

The majority of my toons are the *fun* builds, not the *uber* builds.
Versatility and functionality are king, IMO.
The great thing about Rangers is that they come front loaded with versatility and functionality if you know how to take proper advantage of these things.

[Xyfiel]

We need some new numbers on twf, tempest, capstone ranger, with and without haste.