Ranged Hatred and Myths.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

There is a lot of ranged combat hatred flowing in this game. And a lot of it comes from certain things, that I am going to call Myths. And then do some myth busting.

Unfortunately, like all myths these have basis in truth. Some a very strong basis. But they are heavily scewed by people repeating them with their own agendas.
But many times they are simply exagerated for emphasis.

Myth #1: Ranged does negligible DPS.

Well....it does do way less than a similarly built/equiped melee guy. But to call it negligible or meaningless is way off the mark.
If it is damaging it at all, and not healing/regenerating, than it will eventually die.
My cleric killed the rednamed beholder at the end of Von 3 with a throwing dagger.
Everyone else died over and over again...it took awhile...but I killed him. Negligible?

My main has run the Shroud only 16 times. Yet I've delivered the killing blow to the pit fiend in prt 5, twice. Pretty good odds if it's negligible. I really should buy more lottery tickets.

Of course that was with Manyshot.
Which I also know can pull agro off a heavy tank. Sulu and I are old friends, and his buddies in ToD know who I am too.

The more sensible people will admit that Manyshot does some darn good DPS.

But what about the rest of the time?

I'm not much a number cruncher, but I'll tell you what I see.
The more HP a monster has, the less effective ranged combat is against him.
In a harbor normal quest a ranged guy kills very fast. On elite there is a hug difference.

In the mindsunder quests the damage I do per hit with a bow, compared to the damage the monster archer does to me....when you adjust for the amount of HP, he has compared to mine...and how ling I can last with eash of us shooting at each other....it is very depressing.
Single shot ranged fails to cut it...not because I can't kill him, but because I can not take the damage he can put out long enough to kill him.

So, IMO while ranged DPS is not negligible it become weaker and weaker the more HP the enemy has.

Myth#2: Ranged guys kite all the monsters away from the party, all over the dungeon.

I can't really remember this happening outside the Harbor.
But the kiting issue is also exagerated...even there.

Truth is the ranged guy kites "ONE" monster. And only the worst ranged guys actually get themselves killed this way.
Unfortunately it is always the one monster that the melee guy had already targeted for termination.
(the same monster that is about to get PKed or Charmed)

it's really unfair to blame the ranged guy for targeting the same monster you did. He played exactly the same way you did...he targeted the closest monster to him.

And he just stopped one monster from targeting anyone else in the group.

It might be annoying, but it's unfair to hate him for it.

Myth #3: Ranged guy cause party wipes by drawing agro from monsters far away from the group.

Uhm.....yes. Sometimes the guy with a bow hits tab and accidentally hits a monster in the next room..who then tells all his friends to charge down there and attack everyone.

But, you were just going to run into that room with reckless abandon and not use a single damage mitigating tactic anyway......so what's the problem?

When I see players actually using a tactic other than "CHARGE!" we'll talk.

Careless guys with bows do sometimes draw unwanted agro. But IMO does not lead to party wipes....not anymore than standard melee (lack of) tactics anyway.




Well... I kinda ran out of myths for the moment. Maybe I'll add more later.

[rezo]

/ in before the forums trolls gets here.

[Aesop]

/ in before the forums trolls gets here.

ditto


Aesop

[ArichValtrahn]

I dont see how these are "myths". DPS is significantly lower, rangers do kite stuff all over (even if its just newer ones) and they do occasionally grab aggro on stuff accidentally.

My main character is a Ranger and I would love to use ranged attacks primarily, but I dont for all of the reasons (err myths) you listed.

[DoctorWhofan]

Talon...I was on one of those Shroud runs. You were AWESOME. You have an AMAZING character and you are an awesome player. Not many can do that, even if you held their hand every level increase. You KNOW when to range and when no to. Alot players think: "I'm an Arcane Archer, I'm shooting!" adding the fact range doesn't do the sustained damage that melee does, Range combat gets a bad rep, and deserving at times.

[bobbryan2]

Myth #1 : Negligible means poor DPS. Yes, even negligible damage will win a war of attrition eventually, that doesn't mean it's not negligible.

Myth #2 : I've rarely seen that since level 10 as well. But that's because I don't see ranged people often after level 10.

Myth #3 : I don't even understand...

[Cyr]

1) Ranged does do some dps. It just does less then comparable melee dps by a good margin. That rightly labels ranged users as doing substandard dps. However, come next mod and the incredible boost of 25 damage per shot from slaying arrows they will be very competitive with melee dps making them much more desirable.

2) Huh, kite one guy only? If they are ranged rangers most of those guys who like to kite shoot through as many as they can at one time. Actually that's one of the best uses of their damage as it increases their total damage per shot. This works fine if the ranger makes it clear that they are going to be doing this, just like the wizard who shots of AOE's but doesn't kill stuff right away and runs around.

3) People think that ranged users cause wipes by drawing agro? Haven't really heard that complaint. Have heard the three ranged users equals two melee's though and that causing a wipe one for sure though.

[Varr]

The general chaos in monster agro, crowd control, and mass healing is generally accepted as reason enough to black list ranged general purpose range combat. I'll bet the pro ranged minority would be shocked at how much dos would be required to justify the chaos to the anti ranged majority...

For me the base damage of around....6d12 an arrow base instead of the 1d8 longbow base would get me neutral on the topic.

[Aesop]

Myth #4

Ranged has complete immunity from damage therefore they SHOULD do less than half the damage of a S&B fighter.



Aesop

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I dont see how these are "myths". DPS is significantly lower, rangers do kite stuff all over (even if its just newer ones) and they do occasionally grab aggro on stuff accidentally.

My main character is a Ranger and I would love to use ranged attacks primarily, but I dont for all of the reasons (err myths) you listed.

I probably used the word "myths" for effect.

They are exagerations. And the hatred is unjustified IMO.

I see casters kite more than ranged guys. Well...in a bad way anyway.

For the record, I do not used ranged all the time. (well except the archer Ftr I built)

But I use it a lot. Not because it does more damage, I use it because I don't like to get beat up.

[Xyfiel]

A well built melee will hit 400+ dps, a well built archer 250+ dps. Least that was the numbers I got before the attack speed change. That was assuming Human 20 Ranger, +5 damage boost during manyshot, repeater all other times, Lit II for both, one traget only. With the change to Arcane Archer, and factor in hitting on average 1.5 targets per shot, I believe 400 is attainable.

Things that cause lower dps:
lower str=you can hit 40+ on a archer, compared to say a 26, thats 7 damage
failure to line up mobs for IPS=don't just kite one, aim for the one the melee is hitting and get them both at the same time
failure to get seeker and backstab items
weak PrE's

Newer archers have a bigger dps gap from a well built/played archer then the same on a melee imo. Perhaps we need to make some youtube videos on how to range.

[Glockduck]

There is a lot of ranged combat hatred flowing in this game. And a lot of it comes from certain things, that I am going to call Myths. And then do some myth busting.

Unfortunately, like all myths these have basis in truth. Some a very strong basis. But they are heavily scewed by people repeating them with their own agendas.
But many times they are simply exagerated for emphasis.

Myth #1: Ranged does negligible DPS.

Well....it does do way less than a similarly built/equiped melee guy. But to call it negligible or meaningless is way off the mark.
If it is damaging it at all, and not healing/regenerating, than it will eventually die.
My cleric killed the rednamed beholder at the end of Von 3 with a throwing dagger.
Everyone else died over and over again...it took awhile...but I killed him. Negligible?

My main has run the Shroud only 16 times. Yet I've delivered the killing blow to the pit fiend in prt 5, twice. Pretty good odds if it's negligible. I really should buy more lottery tickets.

Of course that was with Manyshot.
Which I also know can pull agro off a heavy tank. Sulu and I are old friends, and his buddies in ToD know who I am too.

The more sensible people will admit that Manyshot does some darn good DPS.

But what about the rest of the time?

I'm not much a number cruncher, but I'll tell you what I see.
The more HP a monster has, the less effective ranged combat is against him.
In a harbor normal quest a ranged guy kills very fast. On elite there is a hug difference.

In the mindsunder quests the damage I do per hit with a bow, compared to the damage the monster archer does to me....when you adjust for the amount of HP, he has compared to mine...and how ling I can last with eash of us shooting at each other....it is very depressing.
Single shot ranged fails to cut it...not because I can't kill him, but because I can not take the damage he can put out long enough to kill him.

So, IMO while ranged DPS is not negligible it become weaker and weaker the more HP the enemy has.

Myth#2: Ranged guys kite all the monsters away from the party, all over the dungeon.

I can't really remember this happening outside the Harbor.
But the kiting issue is also exagerated...even there.

Truth is the ranged guy kites "ONE" monster. And only the worst ranged guys actually get themselves killed this way.
Unfortunately it is always the one monster that the melee guy had already targeted for termination.
(the same monster that is about to get PKed or Charmed)

it's really unfair to blame the ranged guy for targeting the same monster you did. He played exactly the same way you did...he targeted the closest monster to him.

And he just stopped one monster from targeting anyone else in the group.

It might be annoying, but it's unfair to hate him for it.

Myth #3: Ranged guy cause party wipes by drawing agro from monsters far away from the group.

Uhm.....yes. Sometimes the guy with a bow hits tab and accidentally hits a monster in the next room..who then tells all his friends to charge down there and attack everyone.

But, you were just going to run into that room with reckless abandon and not use a single damage mitigating tactic anyway......so what's the problem?

When I see players actually using a tactic other than "CHARGE!" we'll talk.

Careless guys with bows do sometimes draw unwanted agro. But IMO does not lead to party wipes....not anymore than standard melee (lack of) tactics anyway.




Well... I kinda ran out of myths for the moment. Maybe I'll add more later.

sorry to burst your bubble. But you are incorrect on most of your points here.

Your correct on the ranged hatered part. I am a self proclaimed equal opportunity hater. I hate all classes that insist on playing ranged combat as their primary form of dps. (Bow/crossbow)

I am not quite sure where you have been. But we still have idiots in GH and trying out vale for the first time, hoping and skipping all over Gods green earth, because they still havent figured out how to play.

The past few months when DDO went FTP made this problem even worse.

I look at it like this. If you want to use a bow. Fine with me.... Your stone only takes up one backback slot. You cant kill what you insist on agroing, dont complain to me, when I dont take you to the shrine, until the run is over.

Dont get me wrong. There are some great ranged combat players. They are just so far and few between, that the dumbasses out their now, are making a bad name for the group as a whole.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Talon...I was on one of those Shroud runs. You were AWESOME. You have an AMAZING character and you are an awesome player. Not many can do that, even if you held their hand every level increase. You KNOW when to range and when no to. Alot players think: "I'm an Arcane Archer, I'm shooting!" adding the fact range doesn't do the sustained damage that melee does, Range combat gets a bad rep, and deserving at times.

/blushes

My char has a lot of weaknesses. You saw that a while back too. But almost four years of playing him, I've learned how to play him to his strengths. Which is primarily versitility.

I've got a Rog17 on Argo, that is a killing machine. I was really amazed how much DPS a Rog can put out.
So I used a lot of what I learned on my Rog to adjust how I use Talonkage.

But my Rog's number one weakness IMO is lack of a good ranged attack.


I wanted to talk about ranged roles as well.

Basically, when things go bad, and people are dying left and right, it's time to fall back to a safer position, and pull out the bow.

Which is what I did in thet Shroud run of yours.

The tank you were healing was the real star of course. He took all the agro, and somehow you kept him alive with no mana.

But I raised you twice, and kept myself alive with single digit HP, and exhuatsed all my healing resources...and avoided damage from the blades.
By using a bow.

I don't think that is something people should disreguard.

Inferior DPS with the benefit of decreased damage taken is a very powerful option to have.

[mistahnice]

ranged is awful and the op should be ashamed for encouraging people to use ranged weapons until turbine fixes the rof issues

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Myth #4

Ranged has complete immunity from damage therefore they SHOULD do less than half the damage of a S&B fighter.



Aesop

That one bugs me too. Especially soince the Devs seem to think that.

Ranged does not grant complete immunity.....but can in the right situations.

But it can grant that imunity right now! Reguardless if they beef up the damage at all.

It's sad that the only thing holding us back from using a potential exploit is player patience.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

sorry to burst your bubble. But you are incorrect on most of your points here.

Your correct on the ranged hatered part. I am a self proclaimed equal opportunity hater. I hate all classes that insist on playing ranged combat as their primary form of dps. (Bow/crossbow)

I am not quite sure where you have been. But we still have idiots in GH and trying out vale for the first time, hoping and skipping all over Gods green earth, because they still havent figured out how to play.

The past few months when DDO went FTP made this problem even worse.

I look at it like this. If you want to use a bow. Fine with me.... Your stone only takes up one backback slot. You cant kill what you insist on agroing, dont complain to me, when I dont take you to the shrine, until the run is over.

Dont get me wrong. There are some great ranged combat players. They are just so far and few between, that the dumbasses out their now, are making a bad name for the group as a whole.

There are bad players of all classes and combat styles. I've seen a lot of them who are levl 20 already.

I think the ranged hatred is unjustified.

Most of the ranged users I see are mediocre. They don't die anymore than anyone else. Their kill counts are a distant third.
But mediocre does not deserve the hate I see out there IMO.

[SolarDawning]

There's good points on both sides.
I recall some people recently did an all-ranged shroud, with no problems.
Personally, I'm more than happy to play with a ranged-combat ranger who knows when to range and when to melee.
It drives me absolutely nuts when a ranger makes the first attack from range, then they run backwards kiting enemies, popping shots off at them. That's the kind of player I get infuriated with very quickly, because they drag on the fights by preventing melee from landing hits, when the melee would finish off that enemy much quicker.

If the ranger wants to play ranged, and knows how to do so without pulling aggro or kiting, then I'm happy to have them along.

[Aesop]

That one bugs me too. Especially soince the Devs seem to think that.

Ranged does not grant complete immunity.....but can in the right situations.

But it can grant that imunity right now! Reguardless if they beef up the damage at all.

It's sad that the only thing holding us back from using a potential exploit is player patience.

yep.

All in all. Ranged could use a little boost in the right areas (I feel RoA is one of those areas)

AI relating to ranged could also use some boosts ... actually AI relating to a few things in fact (spell casters I'm looking at you)

then again the game could use some tweeks in the right areas... blanket immunities I'm STILL looking at you... and have been for 4 years

Aesop

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The general chaos in monster agro, crowd control, and mass healing is generally accepted as reason enough to black list ranged general purpose range combat. I'll bet the pro ranged minority would be shocked at how much dos would be required to justify the chaos to the anti ranged majority...

For me the base damage of around....6d12 an arrow base instead of the 1d8 longbow base would get me neutral on the topic.

I think that chaos has a lot of reasons.

Lack of CC and tactics in general.

I think it's unfair to blame the ranged guy, when no one else is using any tactics either.


Funny, one of the reasons I prefer ranged is because of that chaos.

I want to be able to step safely back and access the situation, without getting beat on from all sides.

A lot of times I will start a fight in melee, but when we get surrounded by mobs from everywhere, and no one knows who's doing what.... I will jump back out of the pack, and pull out my bow.

Anything that does come to me, is coming from one direction now, and I can deal with it better. If I only pull one, I switch back to melee and take him on. If I pull too many, I take other action. One favorite is to put my back in a corner. But kiting is sometimes an option too.

I generally frown on kiting. But use it at times. I prefer a modified kite, where I kite in circles....and toward my friends.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

sorry to burst your bubble. But you are incorrect on most of your points here.

Your correct on the ranged hatered part. I am a self proclaimed equal opportunity hater. I hate all classes that insist on playing ranged combat as their primary form of dps. (Bow/crossbow)

I am not quite sure where you have been. But we still have idiots in GH and trying out vale for the first time, hoping and skipping all over Gods green earth, because they still havent figured out how to play.

The past few months when DDO went FTP made this problem even worse.

I look at it like this. If you want to use a bow. Fine with me.... Your stone only takes up one backback slot. You cant kill what you insist on agroing, dont complain to me, when I dont take you to the shrine, until the run is over.

Dont get me wrong. There are some great ranged combat players. They are just so far and few between, that the dumbasses out their now, are making a bad name for the group as a whole.

Why is it, that the ranged guy who bites off more than he can chew, and dies for it, is considered a worse player than the melee guy who charges into a mob, and dies?